Abortion: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[FutureAmerica]

The world is overpopulated! Beware!

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

The world is overpopulated! Beware!

That doesn't justify abortion

[The Black Forrest]

I don't think anyone wants it normalized. That's just disgusting. Just fund provided contraception and safe-sex courses.

They're are clinics opening up in some parts that aim to do that. Normalize it.

I thought religious people had rules about telling lies.

[FutureAmerica]

The world is overpopulated! Beware!

That doesn't justify abortion

Don't we abort wild animal populations when they get out of hand? Think about why they do that.

[The Black Forrest]

The world is overpopulated! Beware!

That doesn't justify abortion

Indeed we use wars and famine for that....

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

That doesn't justify abortion

Don't we abort wild animal populations when they get out of hand? Think about why they do that.

Not really. We don't abort, we use animal birth control, and that also doesn't have a 100% chance of working. The more common method is shooting them down for the sake of themselves

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

That doesn't justify abortion

Indeed we use wars and famine for that....

Holodomor comes into play

[Kensara]

I wonder if pro-chioce people realise that they have already been born ( maybe they should think differently , what if their mother had bloody aborted them. Nut cases ). Besides the child you don't want, can be adopted . simple.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

I wonder if pro-chioce people realise that they have already been born ( maybe they should think differently , what if their mother had bloody aborted them. Nut cases ). Besides the child you don't want, can be adopted . simple.

Adoption isn't a choice, and pulling quotes out of a ass isn't arguing. Simple.

I'll answer this trite quote for once, because a foolishly foolish quote made by a foolishly foolish fool is foolishly quoted.

the problem is that I'm out of the womb, but if I were still in the womb, then I wouldn't have a opinion on what would happen.

How triteq

[The Black Forrest]

I wonder if pro-chioce people realise that they have already been born ( maybe they should think differently , what if their mother had bloody aborted them. Nut cases ).

Abortion could have eliminated the anti-christ for all you know.

It's fun to make silly analogies.

Besides the child you don't want, can be adopted . simple.

Excellent. You will adopt a couple right? didn't think so.

When the system is in need of children; we can discuss this "solution"

[UED]

I wonder if pro-chioce people realise that they have already been born ( maybe they should think differently , what if their mother had bloody aborted them. Nut cases ). Besides the child you don't want, can be adopted . simple.

"It can be adopted. Simple"

You really think adoption is that easy? There are probably tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of children in the US alone who are waiting to be adopted. It's not some easy progress.

[The Rich Port]

I wonder if pro-chioce people realise that they have already been born ( maybe they should think differently , what if their mother had bloody aborted them. Nut cases ). Besides the child you don't want, can be adopted . simple.

... You created a nation specifically to post an asinine, easily discredited shit-ton...

... Guys, I think we're being targeted.

... Well, or, you know, this guy just has a lot of time on his hands.

... Or he's a mask for some intellectual coward that's already posted here.

Either way, something's iffy here.

[Othelos]

I wonder if pro-chioce people realise that they have already been born ( maybe they should think differently , what if their mother had bloody aborted them. Nut cases ). Besides the child you don't want, can be adopted . simple.

How is "people who are pro-choice have already been born" any kind of argument?

[Godular]

I wonder if pro-chioce people realise that they have already been born ( maybe they should think differently , what if their mother had bloody aborted them. Nut cases ). Besides the child you don't want, can be adopted . simple.

Everybody who ever died was born too. Might wanna think about that before making such a silly argument that has alreadybeen turned around 8 or so times already.

[Dyakovo]

I don't like the pro-life movement.
They attempt to force their unfair morals onto everyone

Much as the pro-choice movement attempts to force it's unfair morals on unborn children.

This argument works both ways.

No, we're not forcing our morals on anyone. Also, a foetus, unlike a pregnant woman, is not a person.

---

Morality is not the issue at hand. If I had 2 candy bars and you had none, I should not be forced to give you one. I might be mean, I might be immoral, and I might be an outright prick. But forcing me to give away my choice is the worse of the two manners.

Quite right, but then again, I probably wouldn't die if you didn't give me the candy.

In the case of abortion, the child (or fetus, if you prefer) does die. Or, more specifically, it's deprived of life.

I don't think the right to choose is more important than the right to live.

So women are just walking, talking incubators to you. Got it.

---

Change the candy to food and water- the basis of the point is the same; but now a more life-or-death situation. Because I refuse to give you food and water, you die. But it's my food and water. If I want to keep my food, then I'm a bad citizen, not an illegal one. Should we enforce compulsory organ donation because the person in need of the organ doesn't have one, in that case? Not providing them the organs is depriving them of their right to life.

But the dying person isn't in his situation because of a choice the person withholding help made.

The fetus is in it's situation because of a choice it's mother made.

Doesn't putting someone (or a soon-to-be someone) in such a situation call for some form of obligated assistance? Personally, I think it does. If I injured you in a car crash, puncturing both of your kidneys because I was flying 100 km/h in a 50 km/h zone, and I have two working kidneys that happen to be a match, I should be required to give you one of my kidneys so that you can live.

If a woman is getting an abortion, it's a pretty safe bet that she didn't choose to get pregnant (or if she did her situation has drastically changed since she made said choice).

---

No, it doesn't. That's the surprising thing, pro-choice is the NEUTRAL position. Our position is that the decision of whether or not to abort is up to the individual (not the government like anti-choicers are advocating for).

Being pro-choice means wanting abortion to be an option for everyone.

That means wanting abortion clinics (or doctors in a hospital trained to perform abortions) too.

Who do you think funds abortion clinics?

Abortion clinics are *generally) funded through the charge for performing an abortion, in other words, they're funded by the people choosing to have an abortion. I fail to see the problem with that.

---

Incorrect. A mother can sufficiently use contraceptives and still have a child.

A lot of auto-accidents are just that- accidents. Although I should be punished, I shouldn't have to give up parts of my body to the person harmed.

But she would still have had sex. And she would have known that there's always a chance contraceptives can be faulty.

And for goodness sake, please don't use the "but if a person agrees to get into a car, that doesn't mean they agree to get into a car crash" analogy.

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

---

What? You can't bully something without consciousness. And if it does have consciousness, then it probably is too large to take out another way safely.


You have to give permission if someone wants to use your body for any reason (sex, blood transfusion, surgery, etc.). Same with pregnancy.

So are you saying the baby foetus does not have consciousness?

Ftfy, and yes.

---

Yep.



I did the hard work for you. Bold parts are important, underlined are crucial.

1. Intent exists, it's why it's happening in the first place, right? Malice, while sometimes questionable, is usually inherent-you must have malice in order to kill an unthreatening, innocent human, or at the least carelessness. This is complicated in cases of possible death to the mother, where I believe abortion should be readily available.
2. Human fetuses are considered people when killed in every situation except abortion. Though you are correct in stating it is not murder under law, it is still state sanctioned killings that I suppose could be comparable to something along the lines of pogroms. I give you that you are correct in the fact that abortion is not murder in the same way the holocaust was not murder. (Sorry for turning to fallacious Godwin's law immediately, in a rush, and cannot think of other state sanctioned killings, please replace with drone strikes or some similarly state-supported killings if desired)
3. Abortion is a lack of concern for the lives of others.
4. Please explain how fetal movement somehow dictates if it was murder or not

I'll start using the term state-sanctioned killings then.

1: Their is no intent to kill in an abortion.
2: No, they're not.
3: No, it's actually quite the opposite.

---

The difference is that a child of rape was not conceived consensually, whereas a child conceived through consensual sex was conceived willingly.

No. Having sex with the intent to produce a child would be willing conception.

This. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

---

So when I have consensual sex with a woman, I implicitly agree to reproduce.

Don't take this the bad way, but that's an antiquated way of thinking. You're extrapolating the very basics of the animal kingdom to our complex society. Humans have sex for reasons beyond procreation. A person's sexual faculties have functions beyond mere reproduction. There's a societal role as well, one that some people seem very eager to ignore. A lot of things have a function within human society, so why ignore it when talking about sex? Is it somehow exempt?

A very basic example would be eating. We eat at certain/fixed moments during the day, even at times we don't need to eat. When we go out with friends we drink, even though we're not always thirsty. We eat beyond mere nourishment. We use our bodies for more than just the basics.

And yet none of those other functions involve the creation of another human being.

Which is exactly the point. Ergo, the role of sex is not (just) reproduction.

---

As others have mentioned then the life of the fetus is not what you hold as important, since all fetuses should be equal, regardless of how they were conceived. You are diminishing it, by forcing unwanted fetuses on people who have no desire to be pregnant or give birth. During and ater is not a happy times for these people.

What is wrong with sex being carefree, I do not understand it. This right here by the way seems to suggest you are in essence slut shaming and thus the punishment for having sex is to be forced to carry the fetus to term. How does that not demean the process of childbirth? Why should it be serious, sex is fun, sex is bonding (often), sex feels good. Why should it be a serious act?

It is not petty, pregnancy is not an easy thing. Even when the pregnancy is not life threatening it does cause long term and short term affects on the woman's body. Pregnancy can be expensive. It can get in the way of work. Pregnancy is no light thing, even today.

All fetuses are equal, but not all fetuses were conceived equally. I believe if a mother did not willingly misuse her reproductive capabilities, then she should be allowed an abortion.

Sex shouldn't be "carefree" because you are using it to create another human being when it is not desired. I do not believe it is slut shaming at all: if you wish to go around having sex all over the place with all sorts of people, go right ahead, but you must then assume the consequences of your actions. If you cannot support the child or do not want it, then you should not have had sex. Sex doesn't have to be vaginal for one, and sex is all those things because your body is trying to convince you to procreate, the core function of sex from which all its other functions are based.

The whole idea that that somehow demeans childbirth is absurd. Please explain how responsible sex demeans childbirth.

Pregnancy lasts 5-7 months after the mother normally finds out. To claim that those 5-7 months somehow is more important than a whole human lifetime is not only petty, but demeans birth more than responsible sex ever could.

Having recreational sex is not misuse of her reproductive capabilities.

---

Aha, I found your post! Sorry, I had to dig a little.

Alright, so I found an article that worded it better than I did, and I'm gonna quote it right here, if that's alright with you:

"Your analogy is flawed because, when framed properly, it doesn’t strengthen your moral position — it defeats it.

The hypothetical should be this: your own child becomes very sick because of something you did.

So this is about blame and punishment, then?

Of course it is. That is invariably what the pro-life position boils down to. Some woman made a choice that they don't approve of, so she should be punished.

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Sex entails no responsibilities other than what you force onto other people...

Women literally have no inherent obligation to allow a fetus to survive inside of their own body. Even if a woman consented to sex with the intent of consenting to a pregnancy that doesn't mean she cannot change her mind in the slightest. Consent is something that can be retracted once given.

Yes, it most certainly can. And consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy anyway.

[Ifreann]

That doesn't justify abortion

Don't we abort wild animal populations when they get out of hand? Think about why they do that.

No, we cull them. And, depending on how tasty they are, eat them.

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I wonder if pro-chioce people realise that they have already been born ( maybe they should think differently , what if their mother had bloody aborted them. Nut cases ). Besides the child you don't want, can be adopted . simple.

How is "people who are pro-choice have already been born" any kind of argument?

Ronald Reagan said it, therefore it is the very height of wit and wisdom.

[Haktiva]

Everyone has the right to udder their unborn children.

[Godular]

Everyone has the right to udder their unborn children.

I think autocorrect might have corrupted this post. Udder?

[God Forever]

Pro choice. Abortion reduces the burden on worldwide population and allows women freedom to prepare a family when they prefer, enhancing order.

[Godular]

Pro choice. Abortion reduces the burden on worldwide population and allows women freedom to prepare a family when they prefer, enhancing order.

Not to mention quality of life, both for mothers and for children.

[The Rich Port]

Pro choice. Abortion reduces the burden on worldwide population and allows women freedom to prepare a family when they prefer, enhancing order.

Not to mention quality of life, both for mothers and for children.

Well, the children that are born.

But I'm sure the foetuses will understand... [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QhAw8-5ydQ&t=1m29s]IN HELL[/url].

[Steamtopia]

Woman's body, woman's choice. Simple.

[Jacobania]

The world is overpopulated! Beware!

For every human being on this earth, there are over 1 million ants, and if we weighed all the ants on the earth with all of humanity, they would way the same.

How come no one is freaking out about the overpopulation of ants/chickens/numerous other creatures that outnumber people?

[Jacobania]

Concerning abortion, people like to say "what about in cases of rape!" (less than 0.1% of all abortions btw)

I think the other extreme should be asked of pro-choicer's.

Should a 7-9 pound third-trimester baby be allowed to be aborted (more than 0.1% of all abortions)?

[The Great Warrior Rivers]

Concerning abortion, people like to say "what about in cases of rape!" (less than 0.1% of all abortions btw)

I think the other extreme should be asked of pro-choicer's.

Should a 7-9 pound third-trimester baby be allowed to be aborted (more than 0.1% of all abortions)?

After vitality the child shouldn't be aborted. Just removed and cared for accordingly. If it can live by itself, we have have to nourish it. It's not like that's impossible.