Abortion: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Banana Nanica]

If you had sex without birth control, you should check.

There is no reliable method to determine pregnancy at 3 weeks LMP.

At the 3rd week, it's way more likely to find out than not. But it doesnt need to be exactly 3 weeks, just as soon as it is possible to detect is the idea.

Not to mention that half of all women who receive abortion care were using birth control.

Well, in case of a pregnancy where the birth control failed and the first weeks have passed, the child will be born. There's no perfect solution.

[Wallenburg]

There is no reliable method to determine pregnancy at 3 weeks LMP.

At the 3rd week, it's way more likely to find out than not. But it doesnt need to be exactly 3 weeks, just as soon as it is possible to detect is the idea.

Not to mention that half of all women who receive abortion care were using birth control.

Well, in case of a pregnancy where the birth control failed and the first weeks have passed, the child will be born. There's no perfect solution.

Actually, there is. Legalize abortion regardless of fetal development.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

There is no reliable method to determine pregnancy at 3 weeks LMP.

At the 3rd week, it's way more likely to find out than not. But it doesnt need to be exactly 3 weeks, just as soon as it is possible to detect is the idea.

Not to mention that half of all women who receive abortion care were using birth control.

Well, in case of a pregnancy where the birth control failed and the first weeks have passed, the child will be born. There's no perfect solution.

Prior to missing her period, women don't have a great option in pregnancy tests because her HCG levels are too low to detect reliably, and the fact that you dispute this shows that you don't have firm grasp of how pregnancy works. And if you say the abortion has to occur BEFORE 3 weeks, you are literally saying she has to make an appointment for an abortion prior to implantation. Women who desire them acquire an abortion as soon as they are able. No woman just sits on it and waits.

Sorry, no, you don't get to tell a woman she is forced to carry a pregnancy to term because she didn't know she's pregnant before she's pregnant. All you are trying to do is de facto outlaw abortion for no reason.

[USS Monitor]

There is no reliable method to determine pregnancy at 3 weeks LMP.

At the 3rd week, it's way more likely to find out than not. But it doesnt need to be exactly 3 weeks, just as soon as it is possible to detect is the idea.

"More likely than not" isn't good enough when you are dealing with something that has such significant consequences.

Not to mention that half of all women who receive abortion care were using birth control.

Well, in case of a pregnancy where the birth control failed and the first weeks have passed, the child will be born. There's no perfect solution.

Women whose birth control failed should be allowed to get an abortion when they realize what has happened. Since they were on birth control, they're probably not going to be using the morning after pill or doing regular pregnancy tests because they don't have any reason to suspect they are pregnant. This means it will often take more than 3 weeks for them to notice.

[Banana Nanica]

At the 3rd week, it's way more likely to find out than not. But it doesnt need to be exactly 3 weeks, just as soon as it is possible to detect is the idea.



Well, in case of a pregnancy where the birth control failed and the first weeks have passed, the child will be born. There's no perfect solution.

Prior to missing her period, women don't have a great option in pregnancy tests because her HCG levels are too low to detect reliably, and the fact that you dispute this shows that you don't have firm grasp of how pregnancy works. And if you say the abortion has to occur BEFORE 3 weeks, you are literally saying she has to make an appointment for an abortion prior to implantation. Women who desire them acquire an abortion as soon as they are able. No woman just sits on it and waits.

Well, implantation happens in 10-20 days, most women would be able to find out before the end of 3 weeks.

Also, don't forget this is a pro-life position. To protect the lives of the unborn children, not some universal right to abortion. If the mother doesn't want the baby, but the pregnancy is still at such an early stage, then ok, but otherwise not.

Yeah, it's arbitrary, like any law. The "When does life begin?" debate will never end and I consider the most safe and healthy position to protect unborn babies as much as we can, without pretending we don't have abortion as a choice for the lesser evil in some special cases and that chosing it doesn't make the doctors or the mother murderers.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Prior to missing her period, women don't have a great option in pregnancy tests because her HCG levels are too low to detect reliably, and the fact that you dispute this shows that you don't have firm grasp of how pregnancy works. And if you say the abortion has to occur BEFORE 3 weeks, you are literally saying she has to make an appointment for an abortion prior to implantation. Women who desire them acquire an abortion as soon as they are able. No woman just sits on it and waits.

Well, implantation happens in 10-20 days, most women would be able to find out before the end of 3 weeks.

Also, don't forget this is a pro-life position. To protect the lives of the unborn children, not some universal right to abortion. If the mother doesn't want the baby, but the pregnancy is still at such an early stage, then ok, but otherwise not.

Yeah, it's arbitrary, like any law. The "When does life begin?" debate will never end and I consider the most safe and healthy position to protect unborn babies as much as we can, without pretending we don't have abortion as a choice for the lesser evil in some special cases and that chosing it doesn't make the doctors or the mother murderers.

No most women will not know within 3 weeks (Stag is a woman fyi) and fetuses =/= babies.

[Halfblakistan]

Women should have the right to choose, but I'm on the fence about abortions after the first trimester.

Still, unless the government is going to make sure that child has the right to quality food, healthcare and education, it's a moot point.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Prior to missing her period, women don't have a great option in pregnancy tests because her HCG levels are too low to detect reliably, and the fact that you dispute this shows that you don't have firm grasp of how pregnancy works. And if you say the abortion has to occur BEFORE 3 weeks, you are literally saying she has to make an appointment for an abortion prior to implantation. Women who desire them acquire an abortion as soon as they are able. No woman just sits on it and waits.

Well, implantation happens in 10-20 days, most women would be able to find out before the end of 3 weeks.

Also, don't forget this is a pro-life position. To protect the lives of the unborn children, not some universal right to abortion. If the mother doesn't want the baby, but the pregnancy is still at such an early stage, then ok, but otherwise not.

Yeah, it's arbitrary, like any law. The "When does life begin?" debate will never end and I consider the most safe and healthy position to protect unborn babies as much as we can, without pretending we don't have abortion as a choice for the lesser evil in some special cases and that chosing it doesn't make the doctors or the mother murderers.

Abortion law mentioning weeks goes by weeks that a doctor places a woman at based on the first day of her last menstrual period, LMP. So 3 weeks LMP, which is what doctors and thus law goes by is 21 days after the first day of her last period - that is, 7 days post ovulation. Ovulation is when an egg is ready, for generally no more than 24 hours, in which fertilization must occur for implantation to even be a possibility. Implantation occurs roughly 3- days post fertilization - i.e. 17-19 days. You are telling me that you want women to be able to tell that they are pregnant and schedule and obtain an abortion in 4 days or less?
That's literally not possible. Most women won't even have the slightest ability to determine whether or not their're pregnant until after 3 weeks LMP and closer to 5 weeks LMP. And even then, women with irregular cycles, which is a lot of women, may not know they are pregnant until after that because if they were using birth control they may believe the chance of being pregnant is extremely unlikely, or if they were using FBA or NFP they may believe they avoided ovulation even when they ovulated on a day different than their expected day of ovulation, or they experienced hyper-ovulation.

So your stance is either based on ignorance of pregnancy or an outright lie.

[USS Monitor]

Prior to missing her period, women don't have a great option in pregnancy tests because her HCG levels are too low to detect reliably, and the fact that you dispute this shows that you don't have firm grasp of how pregnancy works. And if you say the abortion has to occur BEFORE 3 weeks, you are literally saying she has to make an appointment for an abortion prior to implantation. Women who desire them acquire an abortion as soon as they are able. No woman just sits on it and waits.

Well, implantation happens in 10-20 days, most women would be able to find out before the end of 3 weeks.

Also, don't forget this is a pro-life position. To protect the lives of the unborn children, not some universal right to abortion. If the mother doesn't want the baby, but the pregnancy is still at such an early stage, then ok, but otherwise not.

Yeah, it's arbitrary, like any law. The "When does life begin?" debate will never end and I consider the most safe and healthy position to protect unborn babies as much as we can, without pretending we don't have abortion as a choice for the lesser evil in some special cases and that chosing it doesn't make the doctors or the mother murderers.

Most women aren't doing a pregnancy test on a daily basis, so there are going to be a lot that don't find out the instant it becomes detectable. You've also completely failed to address SAT's point about the time it takes between finding out you're pregnant and being able to get an appointment for an abortion. 3 weeks is just an unrealistically short time frame for many unwanted pregnancies.

As much as I appreciate the concept of wanting women who abort to do it as early as possible, such a short timeframe would effectively leave a lot of women with no choice.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Women should have the right to choose, but I'm on the fence about abortions after the first trimester.

Still, unless the government is going to make sure that child has the right to quality food, healthcare and education, it's a moot point.

The vast majority of abortions (close to or above 90%) are done at 12 weeks or before, i.e. within the first trimester. Women who have abortions later than that most often cite financial difficulties in acquiring abortion to be the reason they waited. For example, where I live, the closest clinic that preforms abortions is 2-3 hours away, so finding the ability to take time off work, having enough money not only for the procedure but also the travel costs makes it difficult. We can greatly increase the rate of abortions taking place earlier by telling pro-lifers to go suck a dick and stopping them from putting unfair and over stringent requirements on clinics.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Well, implantation happens in 10-20 days, most women would be able to find out before the end of 3 weeks.

Also, don't forget this is a pro-life position. To protect the lives of the unborn children, not some universal right to abortion. If the mother doesn't want the baby, but the pregnancy is still at such an early stage, then ok, but otherwise not.

Yeah, it's arbitrary, like any law. The "When does life begin?" debate will never end and I consider the most safe and healthy position to protect unborn babies as much as we can, without pretending we don't have abortion as a choice for the lesser evil in some special cases and that chosing it doesn't make the doctors or the mother murderers.

Most women aren't doing a pregnancy test on a daily basis, so there are going to be a lot that don't find out the instant it becomes detectable. You've also completely failed to address SAT's point about the time it takes between finding out you're pregnant and being able to get an appointment for an abortion. 3 weeks is just an unrealistically short time frame for many unwanted pregnancies.

As much as I appreciate the concept of wanting women who abort to do it as early as possible, such a short timeframe would effectively leave a lot of women with no choice.

3 weeks is literally impossible to have an abortion at, considering 2.5 weeks is when implantation occurs.

[Banana Nanica]

So your stance is either based on ignorance of pregnancy or an outright lie.

Yeah, I don't happen to be a specialist on the subject. I didn't even know there are laws in this model (weeks) already, I will check them out along with the other things you said.

That being said... why are you so angry? Dissent is not allowed?

[Wallenburg]

So your stance is either based on ignorance of pregnancy or an outright lie.

Yeah, I don't happen to be a specialist on the subject. I didn't even know there are laws in this model (weeks) already, I will check them out along with the other things you said.

That being said... why are you so angry? Dissent is not allowed?

Having no idea what you're talking about is not appreciated. That's what the anger is directed at.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

So your stance is either based on ignorance of pregnancy or an outright lie.

Yeah, I don't happen to be a specialist on the subject. I didn't even know there are laws in this model (weeks) already, I will check them out along with the other things you said.

That being said... why are you so angry? Dissent is not allowed?

I'm angry because you believe that I should be punished with forced pregnancy and birth for having sex. That is a pain so unbearable that the majority of women have to rely on drugs so strong they cannot walk to get through it, and a lot of them still vomit from the pain. We don't put murderers through that kind of pain, so the sheer fact that you believe that I should be forced to go through that for the crime of having sex is horrific. I'm angry because you believe that, because I have a uterus, I don't have a right to my own body. That's not okay.

And I'm also not okay with you trying to dictate laws about pregnancy when you don't even know how pregnancy works.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

So your stance is either based on ignorance of pregnancy or an outright lie.

Yeah, I don't happen to be a specialist on the subject. I didn't even know there are laws in this model (weeks) already, I will check them out along with the other things you said.

That being said... why are you so angry? Dissent is not allowed?

There's a difference between consent and being ignorant.

Sure, you can express dissent, as long as you are well informed of what you are talking about.

[USS Monitor]

Most women aren't doing a pregnancy test on a daily basis, so there are going to be a lot that don't find out the instant it becomes detectable. You've also completely failed to address SAT's point about the time it takes between finding out you're pregnant and being able to get an appointment for an abortion. 3 weeks is just an unrealistically short time frame for many unwanted pregnancies.

As much as I appreciate the concept of wanting women who abort to do it as early as possible, such a short timeframe would effectively leave a lot of women with no choice.

3 weeks is literally impossible to have an abortion at, considering 2.5 weeks is when implantation occurs.

OK, I'm not an expert on this, so I wasn't sure exactly how early it is possible. But we're in agreement that BN's idea doesn't work.

[Banana Nanica]

Yeah, I don't happen to be a specialist on the subject. I didn't even know there are laws in this model (weeks) already, I will check them out along with the other things you said.

That being said... why are you so angry? Dissent is not allowed?

I'm angry because you believe that I should be punished with forced pregnancy and birth for having sex. That is a pain so unbearable that the majority of women have to rely on drugs so strong they cannot walk to get through it, and a lot of them still vomit from the pain. We don't put murderers through that kind of pain, so the sheer fact that you believe that I should be forced to go through that for the crime of having sex is horrific. I'm angry because you believe that, because I have a uterus, I don't have a right to my own body. That's not okay.

And I'm also not okay with you trying to dictate laws about pregnancy when you don't even know how pregnancy works.

That's hysterical and not true, but thanks for sharing.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I'm angry because you believe that I should be punished with forced pregnancy and birth for having sex. That is a pain so unbearable that the majority of women have to rely on drugs so strong they cannot walk to get through it, and a lot of them still vomit from the pain. We don't put murderers through that kind of pain, so the sheer fact that you believe that I should be forced to go through that for the crime of having sex is horrific. I'm angry because you believe that, because I have a uterus, I don't have a right to my own body. That's not okay.

And I'm also not okay with you trying to dictate laws about pregnancy when you don't even know how pregnancy works.

That's hysterical and not true, but thanks for sharing.

Then explain to me why you believe I shouldn't have control over my own body.
Because you clearly don't care about "unborn babies" that much if you believe that they can be aborted at all.
So why cut off at "3 weeks"? They don't even become a fetus until 8 weeks. They don't develop functioning nervous systems until sometimes past 28 weeks. They don't become viable until, minimum, 24 weeks.
Why 3 weeks? If you care so much why allow abortion at all?

Your stance is inconsistent. Why should I not have a right to my own body?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm angry because you believe that I should be punished with forced pregnancy and birth for having sex. That is a pain so unbearable that the majority of women have to rely on drugs so strong they cannot walk to get through it, and a lot of them still vomit from the pain. We don't put murderers through that kind of pain, so the sheer fact that you believe that I should be forced to go through that for the crime of having sex is horrific. I'm angry because you believe that, because I have a uterus, I don't have a right to my own body. That's not okay.

And I'm also not okay with you trying to dictate laws about pregnancy when you don't even know how pregnancy works.

That's hysterical and not true, but thanks for sharing.

What's hysterical is the fact you actually pretend to know what you're talking about when you really don't.

[USS Monitor]

So your stance is either based on ignorance of pregnancy or an outright lie.

Yeah, I don't happen to be a specialist on the subject. I didn't even know there are laws in this model (weeks) already, I will check them out along with the other things you said.

That being said... why are you so angry? Dissent is not allowed?

Abortion is an emotional topic for some people, especially people that have been in a situation where they needed one.

[Banana Nanica]

Because you clearly don't care about "unborn babies" that much if you believe that they can be aborted at all.

Seriously? I told you, I'm not drawing that line, I'm just making sure it's not being crossed. You would rather have me chanting "life begins at conception" instead of a compromise?

I'm done sis, thanks for the talk.

And give some bones to the rabid liberals around, guys are noisy.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Because you clearly don't care about "unborn babies" that much if you believe that they can be aborted at all.

Seriously? I told you, I'm not drawing that line, I'm just making sure it's not being crossed. You would rather have me chanting "life begins at conception" instead of a compromise?

I'm done sis, thanks for the talk.

And give some bones to the rabid liberals around, guys are noisy.

If you're picking arbitrary points in which to steal my bodily autonomy, make sure they make some sense or stand up for it.
It doesn't count as a compromise if you are still making abortion illegal to everyone because it's impossible to have an abortion at the suggested time.

[Banana Nanica]

If you're picking arbitrary points in which to steal my bodily autonomy, make sure they make some sense or stand up for it.

You want the right to kill children. There it goes back at you, how does it feel?

It doesn't count as a compromise if you are still making abortion illegal to everyone because it's impossible to have an abortion at the suggested time.

Then it should be extended, am I Machiavelli or something? As I said:

it doesnt need to be exactly 3 weeks, just as soon as it is possible to detect is the idea.

Kisses

[Neutraligon]

If you're picking arbitrary points in which to steal my bodily autonomy, make sure they make some sense or stand up for it.

You want the right to kill children. There it goes back at you, how does it feel?

It doesn't count as a compromise if you are still making abortion illegal to everyone because it's impossible to have an abortion at the suggested time.

Then it should be extended, am I Machiavelli or something? As I said:

it doesnt need to be exactly 3 weeks, just as soon as it is possible to detect is the idea.

Kisses

1) To bad no one wants to kill children.
2) And many women do not have pregnancy tests at the exact time it becomes detectable. Hell some women have no idea they are pregnant right up to birth. Unless there are symptoms, and unless you can recognize those symptoms there is no reason to think you are pregnant. Some women never have symptoms, or the symptoms are hidden in other problems.

For instance some women have highly irregular periods and/or tend not to ovulate often, thus reducing the likelihood of pregnancy and of the woman thinking they are pregnant. Some women have changes in jobs or are injured before pregnancy explaining any pain or nausea and weight gain. Pregnancy is simply not a simple matter, and the fact that you seem to think you who has no idea about it should dictate to women when they have the right to have an abortion is frankly insulting.

[Godular]

If you're picking arbitrary points in which to steal my bodily autonomy, make sure they make some sense or stand up for it.

You want the right to kill children. There it goes back at you, how does it feel?

No person has the right to use another person's body against their will. Also noted your 'Pregnancy is punishment' line earlier, as if the woman consented to sex specifically to have sex, and is avoiding the consequences of the action.

As stated several pages before you started posting here, and at least twenty times in this thread: while almost all children are caused by sexual intercourse, having children is not the only reason for having sex (look up Bonobos). If an unwanted pregnancy occurs, the woman should be able to terminate it with a minimum of fuss and judgement.

It doesn't count as a compromise if you are still making abortion illegal to everyone because it's impossible to have an abortion at the suggested time.

Then it should be extended, am I Machiavelli or something? As I said:

it doesnt need to be exactly 3 weeks, just as soon as it is possible to detect is the idea.

Kisses

How about before the first 24 weeks, when the fetus' ongoing existence is wholly an imposition upon the rights of the woman within which it resides?

That'd be swell!