Abortion: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Rhyfelnydd]

Why?

I believe that abortion is wrong.

Which is an opinion you are welcome to have. But, do tell how your personal opinion should in any way influence the rights and liberties of others.

[Grave_n_idle]

The two aren't actually exclusive.

I think abortion is a terrible, terrible thing - and I wish that we never had to ever have even one.

On the other hand, though - it's not for me to dictate that someone ELSE has to go through a pregnancy that they intensely don't want to go through - and I'd rather see a pregnancy terminated, than a child born unwanted and unloved.

It's entirely possible to be anti-abortion, and also pro-choice.

*gasp*

No! You mean pro-choice advocates are not baby murderers?!

I know. Shocking.

[Stellonia]

The two aren't actually exclusive.

I think abortion is a terrible, terrible thing - and I wish that we never had to ever have even one.

On the other hand, though - it's not for me to dictate that someone ELSE has to go through a pregnancy that they intensely don't want to go through - and I'd rather see a pregnancy terminated, than a child born unwanted and unloved.

It's entirely possible to be anti-abortion, and also pro-choice.

*gasp*

No! You mean pro-choice advocates are not baby murderers?!

I suppose that at least some aren't. I don't personally know any pro-choice activists, but I would assume that some are and more are not.

[Washington Resistance Army]

*gasp*

No! You mean pro-choice advocates are not baby murderers?!

I suppose that at least some aren't. I don't personally know any pro-choice activists, but I would assume that some are and more are not.

You would assume some are? What?

[Stellonia]

I suppose that at least some aren't. I don't personally know any pro-choice activists, but I would assume that some are and more are not.

You would assume some are? What?

Yes. I am certain that at least a few are simply obsessed with abortion, just as some pro-lifers are really pro-birthers.

[Washington Resistance Army]

You would assume some are? What?

Yes. I am certain that at least a few are simply obsessed with abortion, just as some pro-lifers are really pro-birthers.

Being obsessed with abortion doesn't make someone a baby murderer.

[Stellonia]

Yes. I am certain that at least a few are simply obsessed with abortion, just as some pro-lifers are really pro-birthers.

Being obsessed with abortion doesn't make someone a baby murderer.

Sorry. I was forgetting that some pro-choice activists perform abortions themselves and are therefore labelled by some as "baby murderers."

[Dyakovo]

Being obsessed with abortion doesn't make someone a baby murderer.

Sorry. I was forgetting that some pro-choice activists perform abortions themselves and are therefore incorrectly labelled by some as "baby murderers."

Ftfy.

[The Alma Mater]

Technically not true. Someone who is not pro-choice could also be pro-abortion; believing that abortions should be forced on women.

... That's a strange point to make...

Not really. As the subsequent posts have already pointed out, topics like these tend to move towards extremes; where people lose sight of the fact that pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion and that pro-life is not merely pro-birth. Pointing out repeatedly that the words are "choice" and "life" is sadly necessary.

[Stellonia]

Sorry. I was forgetting that some pro-choice activists perform abortions themselves and are therefore incorrectly labelled by some as "baby murderers."

Ftfy.

Mind you, I prefer the uncorrected version of that post.

[Ardavia]

Ftfy.

Mind you, I prefer the uncorrected version of that post.

Prefer it all you will.

It's still incorrect labeling.

[Stellonia]

Mind you, I prefer the uncorrected version of that post.

Prefer it all you will.

It's still incorrect labeling.

I wouldn't say so.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Prefer it all you will.

It's still incorrect labeling.

I wouldn't say so.

And you'd be wrong.

[Stellonia]

I wouldn't say so.

And you'd be wrong.

In what sense? A fetus is an unborn baby.

[Washington Resistance Army]

And you'd be wrong.

In what sense? A fetus is an unborn baby.

A fetus =/= a baby.

[Dyakovo]

Ftfy.

Mind you, I prefer the uncorrected version of that post.

I'm sure you do.

[Dyakovo]

In what sense? A fetus is an unborn baby.

A fetus =/= a baby.

And abortion =/= murder.

[Godular]

And you'd be wrong.

In what sense? A fetus is an unborn baby.

Happy-fun hyperbolic false-labeling justification time!

It's so awesome that you so readily resort to such labeling in the effort to support your position! And were we to respond with the assertion that 'some pro-lifers' are 'slave-drivers' you might act quite put-upon and claim such labels as unjust!

Mayhap you should leave that tactic behind?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

And you'd be wrong.

In what sense? A fetus is an unborn baby.

You can call it that if you wish, but it doesn't change anything.

[UED]

Why?

I believe that abortion is wrong.

People will go ahead performing abortions regardless (in fact more dangerously).
It's like how people tried to ban alcohol usage, it won't stop it, it'll make it work.
I dislike the concept of abortion heavily but honestly banning abortion won't work (plus abortion is more economically favorable to the poor) and many pro-life politicians aren't willing to actually make an effort to solve the problem.

[USS Monitor]

what do you think of alan keyes stance on abortion. ( guy on my flag.)

[Keyes offered] a civics lesson to fifth graders at a NH school today. “If I were to lose my mind right now and pick one of you up and bash your head against the floor and kill you, would that be right?”
A chorus of “No.”
“It’s wrong to kill children, isn’t it? At what age is it right to kill children? Think it was OK to kill you when you were 6?,” Keyes asked one child. The child shook his head no.
“Think it was OK to kill you when you were 6 months? You sure? Because we live in a country right now where according to some of our courts and some of our politicians, it is OK,“ Keyes said.
”Our rights come from God. We human beings don’t have the right to take away that right from any human being, including the human beings who haven’t quite got here yet. Because we have denied freedom to children in the womb who haven’t yet gotten to this world, freedom will be denied to you and to your brothers and sisters and to your children.“

Source: Boston globe.


This quote brings up a good view,what make a fetus any different than a younger human child.The fetus and child are both living beings,they are made from the same mixture,just like every one else.just because one is not fully developed does not mean that their not human,especially if we as people know that they will grow up and mature to full human beings. I also have another quote from keyes.

Q: Doesn’t your pro-life stance conflict with your support of the death penaty?
KEYES: It doesn’t conflict at all. Abortion and capital punishment are at different level of moral concern.

OBAMA: It’s unfortunate that with the death penalty Mr. Keyes respects that people may have a different point of view but with the issue of abortion he has labeled people everything as terrorists to slaveholders to being consistent with Nazism for holding an opposing point of view.

KEYES: Mr. Obama has read the newspapers too much. I don’t call people names. I make arguments. And in point of fact, [the pro-choice stance] is the slaveholder’s position. Slaveholders took the view that black people were not developed enough to be treated as human beings and therefore can be bought and sold like animals. People looking at the babe in the womb take the view that it is not developed enough to be treated as a human being and therefore can be killed at will.

( provided via : Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes )

I ask this , is keyes not correct. It sounds correct and it makes a good point on the prochoice movement which thinks a fetus is a lesser being,simply because it has not finished developing.

( sorry for any grammar mistakes.)

He's categorically wrong if he said pro-choice was consistent with Nazism. The Nazis were anti-abortion.

As far as the slaveholder thing, that doesn't hold up either because a fetus doesn't have the same mental capacity and self-awareness as a full-grown black person. And nobody's bodily sovereignty has to be violated for black people to have the legal status of human beings.

[Ardavia]

This quote brings up a good view,what make a fetus any different than a younger human child.The fetus and child are both living beings,they are made from the same mixture,just like every one else.just because one is not fully developed does not mean that their not human,especially if we as people know that they will grow up and mature to full human beings. I also have another quote from keyes.

In order:

Unlike the fetus, a born child is not leeching off the mother's body.
Cancer tumours also consist of human cells, your nonsense about "the same mixture" is irrelevant.
They have the potential to grow up to become human beings, and potential is irrelevant.

Also, Keyes' comparisons to Nazism and slaveholders are irrelevant, nonsensical, and poor arguments in general (playing the Nazi card does not a good argument make). The Nazis made abortion a capital crime, and the slaveholder argument doesn't hold water because once again, personhood is entirely irrelevant and, once again unlike a fetus, a slave is not intruding on the slaveholder's bodily sovereignty.

[Luminesa]

what do you think of alan keyes stance on abortion. ( guy on my flag.)

[Keyes offered] a civics lesson to fifth graders at a NH school today. “If I were to lose my mind right now and pick one of you up and bash your head against the floor and kill you, would that be right?”
A chorus of “No.”
“It’s wrong to kill children, isn’t it? At what age is it right to kill children? Think it was OK to kill you when you were 6?,” Keyes asked one child. The child shook his head no.
“Think it was OK to kill you when you were 6 months? You sure? Because we live in a country right now where according to some of our courts and some of our politicians, it is OK,“ Keyes said.
”Our rights come from God. We human beings don’t have the right to take away that right from any human being, including the human beings who haven’t quite got here yet. Because we have denied freedom to children in the womb who haven’t yet gotten to this world, freedom will be denied to you and to your brothers and sisters and to your children.“

Source: Boston globe.


This quote brings up a good view,what make a fetus any different than a younger human child.The fetus and child are both living beings,they are made from the same mixture,just like every one else.just because one is not fully developed does not mean that their not human,especially if we as people know that they will grow up and mature to full human beings. I also have another quote from keyes.

Q: Doesn’t your pro-life stance conflict with your support of the death penaty?
KEYES: It doesn’t conflict at all. Abortion and capital punishment are at different level of moral concern.

OBAMA: It’s unfortunate that with the death penalty Mr. Keyes respects that people may have a different point of view but with the issue of abortion he has labeled people everything as terrorists to slaveholders to being consistent with Nazism for holding an opposing point of view.

KEYES: Mr. Obama has read the newspapers too much. I don’t call people names. I make arguments. And in point of fact, [the pro-choice stance] is the slaveholder’s position. Slaveholders took the view that black people were not developed enough to be treated as human beings and therefore can be bought and sold like animals. People looking at the babe in the womb take the view that it is not developed enough to be treated as a human being and therefore can be killed at will.

( provided via : Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes )

I ask this , is keyes not correct. It sounds correct and it makes a good point on the prochoice movement which thinks a fetus is a lesser being,simply because it has not finished developing.

( sorry for any grammar mistakes.)

He's categorically wrong if he said pro-choice was consistent with Nazism. The Nazis were anti-abortion.

As far as the slaveholder thing, that doesn't hold up either because a fetus doesn't have the same mental capacity and self-awareness as a full-grown black person. And nobody's bodily sovereignty has to be violated for black people to have the legal status of human beings.

The Nazis were only anti-abortion towards their own people. They wanted to keep the "Aryan" race strong and steady. Meanwhile, if it was children who had disabilities, or other "undesirables", their parents were often forcibly sterilized. And if the children were not in the womb, the Nazis used the abominable T-4 Program.

[The Alma Mater]

This quote brings up a good view,what make a fetus any different than a younger human child.The fetus and child are both living beings,they are made from the same mixture,just like every one else.just because one is not fully developed does not mean that their not human,especially if we as people know that they will grow up and mature to full human beings. I also have another quote from keyes.

In order:

Unlike the fetus, a born child is not leeching off the mother's body.
Cancer tumours also consist of human cells, your nonsense about "the same mixture" is irrelevant.
They have the potential to grow up to become human beings, and potential is irrelevant.

You forgot:

A significant part of the "pro-life" supporters only cares about the fetus, not about the younger human child.

[Godular]

He's categorically wrong if he said pro-choice was consistent with Nazism. The Nazis were anti-abortion.

As far as the slaveholder thing, that doesn't hold up either because a fetus doesn't have the same mental capacity and self-awareness as a full-grown black person. And nobody's bodily sovereignty has to be violated for black people to have the legal status of human beings.

The Nazis were only anti-abortion towards their own people. They wanted to keep the "Aryan" race strong and steady. Meanwhile, if it was children who had disabilities, or other "undesirables", their parents were often forcibly sterilized. And if the children were not in the womb, the Nazis used the abominable T-4 Program.

Is this intended to counter or support the other point?