Should muslims be treated equally?

[New Socialist South Africa]

You're dodging the point. If Islam isn't the primary reason for these attacks (As Muslims in the developed world clearly demonstrate) then don't treat it as the fucking problem.

I'm not dodging the point I never made the point. My issues with Islam have to do with it's impact on democratic state development in the Third World in terms of this discussion I'm taking objection with the dishonest rhetoric.

Well do you then have equal issues with Christianity for the very same reason for what it is doing in Uganda, Nigeria and the DRC to name a few?

[Des-Bal]

Well given that the very DEFINITION of "Terrorism" is "the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims", yes I would call them that. One glass of water with dirt in it may not have as much as another glass, but that doesn't mean the glass with less dirt is suddenly clean. Furthermore, perhaps you didn't catch my meaning. I was implying that if given the political power to do so, they would probably start up death camps for people they didn't like, which IS as bad as everything else you mentioned.

Attempts at intimidation would be a criminal act which again they don't really do. Given the definition of AND I certainly wouldn't call them that anyway. You're constructing alternate realities to call people hypothetical terrorists.

[Dalcaria]

You're dodging the point. If Islam isn't the primary reason for these attacks (As Muslims in the developed world clearly demonstrate) then don't treat it as the fucking problem.

I'm not dodging the point I never made the point. My issues with Islam have to do with it's impact on democratic state development in the Third World in terms of this discussion I'm taking objection with the dishonest rhetoric.

There's nothing dishonest with my rhetoric. Terrorism is terrorism, just because one brand has less guns doesn't make it any better than the other. The KKK is still technically a terrorist group, and you don't see them bombing buildings. Furthermore, did you miss the Arab spring? Islam is not inherently having a negative impact on democracy in the Middle East and other Muslim nations, it's radical Islam that is. On that note, it isn't Christianity that's having a negative effect on US Democracy, it's radical Christianity. And frankly, democracy is a dying system anyways. I could care less what system the Muslims wanted, as long as they respected basic human rights. When that isn't done, then I take issue, but I take issue with the relevant people involved, not Islam as a whole.

[Des-Bal]

Well do you then have equal issues with Christianity for the very same reason for what it is doing in Uganda, Nigeria and the DRC to name a few?

I don't view Christianity as being a threat at the same level but if it was Prince fans doing the same I'd take issue with them. The content of the religion is problematic but no more so than any other major religion.

[Conserative Morality]

I'm not dodging the point I never made the point. My issues with Islam have to do with it's impact on democratic state development in the Third World in terms of this discussion I'm taking objection with the dishonest rhetoric.

Its impact on democratic state development? Yeah, South Sudan and Ethiopia are in much better positions. Cambodia is doing so goddamn well. North Korea is such a bastion of developing democracy. Please, tell me about the wonderfully democratic state of Rwanda. No? Well, what about Zimbabwe? Vietnam? Laos?

All the fault of the Muslims, I suppose.

You're confusing 'justification' and 'reason'.

[Dalcaria]

Well given that the very DEFINITION of "Terrorism" is "the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims", yes I would call them that. One glass of water with dirt in it may not have as much as another glass, but that doesn't mean the glass with less dirt is suddenly clean. Furthermore, perhaps you didn't catch my meaning. I was implying that if given the political power to do so, they would probably start up death camps for people they didn't like, which IS as bad as everything else you mentioned.

Attempts at intimidation would be a criminal act which again they don't really do. Given the definition of AND I certainly wouldn't call them that anyway. You're constructing alternate realities to call people hypothetical terrorists.

And do you think terrorism is! It's a criminal act! And I certainly would call them that! Maybe the US permits people to abuse others to the point they might consider suicide, but just because it's legal doesn't make it any less intimidating, and it certainly doesn't make it any less of a terror tactic. No, not really. I just don't think you're capable of understanding that your perception of what a terrorist is is false.

[New Socialist South Africa]

Well do you then have equal issues with Christianity for the very same reason for what it is doing in Uganda, Nigeria and the DRC to name a few?

I don't view Christianity as being a threat at the same level but if it was Prince fans doing the same I'd take issue with them. The content of the religion is problematic but no more so than any other major religion.

Great well we agree on that then. Do you agree with Burleson's original argument however?

[Des-Bal]

There's nothing dishonest with my rhetoric. Terrorism is terrorism, 1. just because one brand has less guns doesn't make it any better than the other. The KKK is still technically a terrorist group, and you don't see them bombing buildings. 2. Furthermore, did you miss the Arab spring? Islam is not inherently having a negative impact on democracy in the Middle East and other Muslim nations, it's radical Islam that is.

1. Yes it does. It certainly does.

2. One of the major problems that arose from the arab spring was hardline islamists pursuing political power.

3. No it's not. It's Islam. Islam has an existing framework in the Middle East for repressive institutions attractive to those pursuing power consolidation and those who need a lever to motivate a populace.

[Dalcaria]

Well do you then have equal issues with Christianity for the very same reason for what it is doing in Uganda, Nigeria and the DRC to name a few?

I don't view Christianity as being a threat at the same level but if it was Prince fans doing the same I'd take issue with them. The content of the religion is problematic but no more so than any other major religion.

That's probably because you're only following news relevant to Muslim terrorism. The terrorist acts being committed by radical Christians in Africa are AS bad as what the Muslims are doing. Only difference is that Muslims have had an easier time attacking the West, probably because most major travel avenues don't like to step foot into African conflict zones! Also, the "content" of Islam is heavily debatable, as many people here on NS can tell you.

[Conserative Morality]

I don't view Christianity as being a threat at the same level but if it was Prince fans doing the same I'd take issue with them. The content of the religion is problematic but no more so than any other major religion.

What if it was the right-handed? Dark-haired? English-speaking? People who have an 'A' in their name?

Taking justifications at face value when you know them to be hiding the actual reason is... pointless.

[Des-Bal]

Great well we agree on that then. Do you agree with Burleson's original argument however?

My response to the argument was that as a moral principle everyone should be treated equally though if there was legitimately one group to be primarily concerned with focusing your concerns on that group is the pragmatic option. I don't think that's necessarily the case here.

[Conserative Morality]

3. No it's not. It's Islam. Islam has an existing framework in the Middle East for repressive institutions attractive to those pursuing power consolidation and those who need a lever to motivate a populace.

Does it? I seem to remember most of those institutions being disbanded with the wave of Ba'athism, with most of the current structures being pretty recent developments.

[Des-Bal]

What if it was the right-handed? Dark-haired? English-speaking? People who have an 'A' in their name?

Taking justifications at face value when you know them to be hiding the actual reason

Are you suggesting that I have a bias against Prince fans because that was the random example I used.

[Indira]

Sources would be nice OP, because I'm pretty sure muslims are not the only group who commit terrorist attacks.

Not to mention that your it's just as easy to shift such limitations to ANY group you feel are 'disuptive', whether they're muslims or LGBT or anything in between

Right they're just the group that commits the most terrorist attacks.

Sigh. You DO know that SOURCES are generally required when making such claims

[Dalcaria]

There's nothing dishonest with my rhetoric. Terrorism is terrorism, 1. just because one brand has less guns doesn't make it any better than the other. The KKK is still technically a terrorist group, and you don't see them bombing buildings. 2. Furthermore, did you miss the Arab spring? Islam is not inherently having a negative impact on democracy in the Middle East and other Muslim nations, it's radical Islam that is.

1. Yes it does. It certainly does.

2. One of the major problems that arose from the arab spring was hardline islamists pursuing political power.

3. No it's not. It's Islam. Islam has an existing framework in the Middle East for repressive institutions attractive to those pursuing power consolidation and those who need a lever to motivate a populace.

1. Your opinion does not equate to reality.

2. The same thing has happened with democracy in the US. Why don't you try investigating some of the dark secrets the US harbors sometime.

3. That's the SAME THING with any other political system! ALL SYSTEMS ARE CALLED REPRESSIVE. Furthermore, I've heard a few sources refer to at least the Kurds as being an actually secularist population, despite being Muslim. And lest we forget, most nations in the Middle East are actually walking away from repressiveness! Iraq, Afghanistan, and in some ways Turkey are just a few examples! They aren't perfect by any stretch, but "democracy" is improving in the Middle East, and most people asking for it and pushing for it are Muslims!

[Conserative Morality]

Are you suggesting that I have a bias against Prince fans because that was the random example I used.

I'm suggesting that if it was Prince fans and it wasn't their Prince fandom that was the cause of their terrorism, focusing on their Prince fandom would be inane and counterproductive.

[Saiwania]

Not a single good thing resulted from the Arab Spring, the Middle East is a worse off place than before. All it did was destabilize Libya, Syria, Egypt, and Iraq. Previous tyrants that otherwise kept control have been replaced with Islamic fundamentalists and thugs. Only Egypt narrowly escaped their fate under the Muslim Brotherhood, all the other aforementioned countries turned into war zones.

[New Socialist South Africa]

Great well we agree on that then. Do you agree with Burleson's original argument however?

My response to the argument was that as a moral principle everyone should be treated equally though if there was legitimately one group to be primarily concerned with focusing your concerns on that group is the pragmatic option. I don't think that's necessarily the case here.

Well then I would agree again, although I would stress that this "one group to be primarily concerned with" pertaining to the Middle East in Muslim fundamentalists, not all Muslims. Secondly, is some nations, such as Uganda, this "one group to be primarily concerned with" is Christian fundamentalists and not Muslims or Muslim fundamentalists.

[Conserative Morality]

Well then I would agree again, although I would stress that this "one group to be primarily concerned with" pertaining to the Middle East in Muslim fundamentalists, not all Muslims. Secondly, is some nations, such as Uganda, this "one group to be primarily concerned with" is Christian fundamentalists and not Muslims or Muslim fundamentalists.

Saying that Muslim fundamentalism is the problem is like catching Malaria and complaining that the headache is what you really need to solve.

[Greater-London]

Right, European Muslims don't have a long history on the continent, Islam didn't have a huge impact on Western civilization, and hijabs, habits, and Mennonite head-covering... things... are fundamentally different.

No that's not what I'm saying at all. Muslims do have a history in Europe but what we consider "Western Culture" doesn't include Islam. I don't think Hijabs, Habits ETC are fundamentally different just that in mainstream Christianity, Judaism traditional dress isn't as noticeable or commonly worn.

I'm not saying Islam doesn't have an impact on Western culture that would be absurd but that doesn't mean what Western culture doesn't differentiate between its own religious traditions and those of Islam.

All in all it makes literately zero difference, and I don't care about people practicing Islam or women wearing the Hijab. Islamic culture has influenced Western Culture, Muslims have lived in Europe throughout Islams history but you can diferentate between what someone would call "Western" and what someone would call "Islamic"; although there is obviously spillover.

[Des-Bal]

Sigh. You DO know that SOURCES are generally required when making such claims

DOUBLE SIGH. You DO know that OTHERS have already verified the claim by taking a modicum of personal interest in the subject and doing a simple google search.

https://www.fas.org/irp/threat/nctc2011.pdf

[New Socialist South Africa]

Well then I would agree again, although I would stress that this "one group to be primarily concerned with" pertaining to the Middle East in Muslim fundamentalists, not all Muslims. Secondly, is some nations, such as Uganda, this "one group to be primarily concerned with" is Christian fundamentalists and not Muslims or Muslim fundamentalists.

Saying that Muslim fundamentalism is the problem is like catching Malaria and complaining that the headache is what you really need to solve.

Well certainly the best way to solve the issue would be to improve the socio-economic rights and political freedoms of the people in the region, as well as promoting tolerance. Trying to destroy Islamic fundamentalism by force is stupid.

[Des-Bal]

I'm suggesting that if it was Prince fans and it wasn't their Prince fandom that was the cause of their terrorism, focusing on their Prince fandom would be inane and counterproductive.

Except I say AGAIN that I am not talking about terrorism.

1. Your opinion does not equate to reality.

2. The same thing has happened with democracy in the US. Why don't you try investigating some of the dark secrets the US harbors sometime.

3. That's the SAME THING with any other political system! ALL SYSTEMS ARE CALLED REPRESSIVE. Furthermore, I've heard a few sources refer to at least the Kurds as being an actually secularist population, despite being Muslim. And lest we forget, most nations in the Middle East are actually walking away from repressiveness! Iraq, Afghanistan, and in some ways Turkey are just a few examples! They aren't perfect by any stretch, but "democracy" is improving in the Middle East, and most people asking for it and pushing for it are Muslims!

1. My opinion is that when one person is committing murder and another person is not committing murder I prefer that first person.

2. A fine attempt at deflection that neglects first that the United States is not a fledgling state.

3. Not really but I'm not going to argue the distinction. You'd be making an excellent point if "Muslim bad" was my argument." Since it's not you're just saying words.

[Conserative Morality]

No that's not what I'm saying at all. Muslims do have a history in Europe but what we consider "Western Culture" doesn't include Islam.

So Western Culture doesn't include Islam, it just contains copious amounts of Muslim influence in everything from art to philosophy. That doesn't make Islam *really* a part of Western Culture.

...

Right.

I don't think Hijabs, Habits ETC are fundamentally different just that in mainstream Christianity, Judaism traditional dress isn't as noticeable or commonly worn.

So, Mennonites aren't Western. Or nuns.

I'm not saying Islam doesn't have an impact on Western culture that would be absurd but that doesn't mean what Western culture doesn't differentiate between its own religious traditions and those of Islam.

You see, you say "what Western culture doesn't differentiate between its own religious traditions and those of Islam." but the use of contrasting "its own" religious traditions with Islam implies that Islam isn't one of our religious traditions as an axiom. You're asking a question that you answer in the question.

[Des-Bal]

Well then I would agree again, although I would stress that this "one group to be primarily concerned with" pertaining to the Middle East in Muslim fundamentalists, not all Muslims. Secondly, is some nations, such as Uganda, this "one group to be primarily concerned with" is Christian fundamentalists and not Muslims or Muslim fundamentalists.

In some nations it is and in some nations it may well be prince but on the broad scale Islam is a larger issue.