Japan passes Largest-Ever Defense Budget

[The Conez Imperium]

Thing about tanks is in the modern battlefield, ATGMs rule supreme. Tanks can't do much these days if Infantry are equipped with the ability to seriously damage tanks now.

Under this new (as of 1929) thing called "combined arms", no two elements of military equipment will "1v1 me irl".

Battle tanks, artillery pieces, ATGM groups, infantry regiments, IFVs, combat aircraft, attack helicopters and reconnaissance elements will all act in concert to protect each other through suppression and interdiction, and outright killing the enemy.

The ATGM does not "reign supreme". It is a potent piece of equipment on the mechanised battlefield. It has been for almost half a century. It does not negate the tank. On any level. Especially not modern tanks on either side of the former Iron Curtain, all of whom are protected in their base armour and add-on systems to protect against ATGM threats.
Because someone thought it might be a priority to protect against threats.
Who knew?

Addendum, any tank unit that blunders right into an ATGM team anyway deserves to be killed for their commander's lack of due diligence.

The modern missiles for the FGM-148 Javelin are quite smart. They have 2 warheads, the first triggers the tanks reactive armor while the second delivers the shaped charge that incapacitates the enemy tank. Granted a FGM-148 Javelin hasn't been tested in a modern symmetrical battlefield. I'm convinced that the Javelin, BGM-71 TOW and various other ATGMs have a significant ability to stop tank superiority. Yes combined arms is always there but I am just exclusively talking about the ability for Infantry to deal serious damage to enemy armor.

[Uxupox]

I don't believe so, but I suppose it's possible.
It would be ludicrously unwise to do so, however.

True. But I just hope we don't see a whole mini-Cold War between China and Japan, because their relations are already chilly. The Japanese should however acknowledge what happened at Nanking, because if you do not learn from the past, then the same mistakes will be made.

Japan will never acknowledge what happened in Nanking. It's actually a thing to deny that the massacre even occured, supposedly as a staple of Japanese nationalism.

[Imperializt Russia]

Under this new (as of 1929) thing called "combined arms", no two elements of military equipment will "1v1 me irl".

Battle tanks, artillery pieces, ATGM groups, infantry regiments, IFVs, combat aircraft, attack helicopters and reconnaissance elements will all act in concert to protect each other through suppression and interdiction, and outright killing the enemy.

The ATGM does not "reign supreme". It is a potent piece of equipment on the mechanised battlefield. It has been for almost half a century. It does not negate the tank. On any level. Especially not modern tanks on either side of the former Iron Curtain, all of whom are protected in their base armour and add-on systems to protect against ATGM threats.
Because someone thought it might be a priority to protect against threats.
Who knew?

Addendum, any tank unit that blunders right into an ATGM team anyway deserves to be killed for their commander's lack of due diligence.

The modern missiles for the FGM-148 Javelin are quite smart. They have 2 warheads, the first triggers the tanks reactive armor while the second delivers the shaped charge that incapacitates the enemy tank. Granted a FGM-148 Javelin hasn't been tested in a modern symmetrical battlefield. I'm convinced that the Javelin, BGM-71 TOW and various other ATGMs have a significant ability to stop tank superiority. Yes combined arms is always there but I am just exclusively talking about the ability for Infantry to deal serious damage to enemy armor.

And, in response to tandem-warheads (which have been around for decades in Soviet tank rounds), reactive and passive armours have been developed to defeat their advantages.
Javelin can be defeated by laser dazzler, IR-reflective smoke and fire suppression. Same for every ATGM and AT launcher ever.

Reconnaissance elements, vehicle commanders, infantry unit and aircrews will all be observing for ATGM positions to defend their own armoured vehicles and pointing them out, calling in their co-ordinates and suppressing them with fires.

[Napkiraly]

It wasn't removed, it was re-interpreted.

This new interpretation of the same, unchanged clause allows Japan - itself under direct military threat from North Korea and China, to intervene directly in a conflict on behalf of South Korea, in the event of a second Peninsula war, or potentially Taiwan, in event of China suddenly finding amphibious capability to do so.

That wouldn't be concerning also, except could that not be used to say, if they claimed they were under direct military threat from any of above, they could start a war as aggressor?

No, not that I recall.

[Napkiraly]

Under this new (as of 1929) thing called "combined arms", no two elements of military equipment will "1v1 me irl".

Battle tanks, artillery pieces, ATGM groups, infantry regiments, IFVs, combat aircraft, attack helicopters and reconnaissance elements will all act in concert to protect each other through suppression and interdiction, and outright killing the enemy.

The ATGM does not "reign supreme". It is a potent piece of equipment on the mechanised battlefield. It has been for almost half a century. It does not negate the tank. On any level. Especially not modern tanks on either side of the former Iron Curtain, all of whom are protected in their base armour and add-on systems to protect against ATGM threats.
Because someone thought it might be a priority to protect against threats.
Who knew?

Addendum, any tank unit that blunders right into an ATGM team anyway deserves to be killed for their commander's lack of due diligence.

The modern missiles for the FGM-148 Javelin are quite smart. They have 2 warheads, the first triggers the tanks reactive armor while the second delivers the shaped charge that incapacitates the enemy tank. Granted a FGM-148 Javelin hasn't been tested in a modern symmetrical battlefield. I'm convinced that the Javelin, BGM-71 TOW and various other ATGMs have a significant ability to stop tank superiority. Yes combined arms is always there but I am just exclusively talking about the ability for Infantry to deal serious damage to enemy armor.

I don't think you understand what IR is talking about. He fully recognizes that infantry units can inflict serious damage on armoured units. However, due to combined arms this is mitigated by forces that can do serious damage to said units. That's the point, the protect each others weaknesses and supplement one another's strengths. ATGM's have not spelled the end of tanks. For every advancement there will be a counter measure developed - be it in technology, tactics, both, etc.

[The Conez Imperium]

The modern missiles for the FGM-148 Javelin are quite smart. They have 2 warheads, the first triggers the tanks reactive armor while the second delivers the shaped charge that incapacitates the enemy tank. Granted a FGM-148 Javelin hasn't been tested in a modern symmetrical battlefield. I'm convinced that the Javelin, BGM-71 TOW and various other ATGMs have a significant ability to stop tank superiority. Yes combined arms is always there but I am just exclusively talking about the ability for Infantry to deal serious damage to enemy armor.

And, in response to tandem-warheads (which have been around for decades in Soviet tank rounds), reactive and passive armours have been developed to defeat their advantages.
Javelin can be defeated by laser dazzler, IR-reflective smoke and fire suppression. Same for every ATGM and AT launcher ever.

Reconnaissance elements, vehicle commanders, infantry unit and aircrews will all be observing for ATGM positions to defend their own armoured vehicles and pointing them out, calling in their co-ordinates and suppressing them with fires.

If we break from my set boundaries then.

Tanks spot ATGM Infantry
>ATGM infantry find cover preventing tank from using range to establish a firing solution on them. The ATGM range prevents the tank from moving closer
Tanks unable to proceed, either call for infantry support or CAS
>Air power however is not an option, as infantry were spotted with stingers + javelins and 2km behind them is a battery of Chaparral.
Mechanised infantry is called in and suffer casualties as the IFV's encounter entrenched infantry armed with ATGMs and SMAWS.
>Artillery is radioed in to dislodge enemy ATGMs, meanwhile recon is deployed to scout for enemy Chaparral
Enemy artillery responds with country battery fire.

Anyway we get the picture, the thing is giving the humble Infantryman the ability to seriously damage or even dissuade an enemy tank is a serious game changer. Anyway enough of this, back to the topic.

[Imperializt Russia]

Cover doesn't matter. Cover stops you being killed by fires. It doesn't stop you being suppressed. 120mm tank fires, ATGM rounds of the opposing armoured force (which consists tanks, IFVs and infantry in close concert on order of tens of metres anyway), autocannon fires and heavy machine gun fires will suppress you, unable to deploy and fire your ATGM, but likely able to withdraw.
Of course, you have your own tanks, infantry, artillery and air power to fight with.

CAS can sit happily well out of range of most SHORADS. CAS refers to the distance between friendly units you're supporting by engaging proximate enemy forces. An aircraft does not have to be belching exhaust on its own side to perform this. The A-10, F-16, F-15E, F/A-18, B-2, B-1 and B-52 can all perform CAS operations with appropriate munitions and mission planning.

[L Ron Cupboard]

Japan should give the land back.

What land?

Perhaps the diet of fish and antipathy to dolphins is causing him to confuse the Japanese with some kind of sea creature.

[The Grey Wolf]

A herculean effort at genocide, rape on a scale that disturbed officers of the SS, a systemic belief in the racial and cultural superiority of their people over those of the world, the fact that the underlying roots of these things were never addressed in Nippon, and to this day it is exquisitely racist, on a scale and in a fashion that the average American at least can't even begin to grasp.

That's just plain out stupid, modern Japanese people are not responsible for WW2, anymore than any other nation is. Several nations during WW2 engaged in atrocities, Russia and Germany were no less innocent in that regard, and even today, the former denies rapes by Red Army troops. Racism is a problem all over the world, in case you haven't kept up with modern times.

But hey, they make anime and oooohhhhh ebil communism.

Democracy is a get of jail free card right. I mean sure, that whole War Constitution thing, nobody in Nippon wants to see that go.

ohhh hey! Pokemon, got to catch them all, and the Chinese and Koreans arent reaaaallly complete human beings.

So edgy, but hardly contributing to the argument.

[Imperializt Russia]

A herculean effort at genocide, rape on a scale that disturbed officers of the SS, a systemic belief in the racial and cultural superiority of their people over those of the world, the fact that the underlying roots of these things were never addressed in Nippon, and to this day it is exquisitely racist, on a scale and in a fashion that the average American at least can't even begin to grasp.

That's just plain out stupid, modern Japanese people are not responsible for WW2, anymore than any other nation is. Several nations during WW2 engaged in atrocities, Russia and Germany were no less innocent in that regard, and even today, the former denies rapes by Red Army troops. Racism is a problem all over the world, in case you haven't kept up with modern times.

I don't believe the Russians deny Red Army rapes, since at the time, it was regarded as an enormous problem and severe punishments were handed down - though, infrequently, due to discretion of local commanders and other priorities they had. Like fighting the Germans.

[Chestaan]

And so it begins..

Sorry could not resist posting that, anyway interesting news but i dont think now is the right time to beef up your military spending when you are facing economic issues.

In that case Japan should never beef up it's military because they're always facing economic difficulties. If I were them I would try dealing with the deflation and stagnant economy before spending on the military.

[Napkiraly]

That's just plain out stupid, modern Japanese people are not responsible for WW2, anymore than any other nation is. Several nations during WW2 engaged in atrocities, Russia and Germany were no less innocent in that regard, and even today, the former denies rapes by Red Army troops. Racism is a problem all over the world, in case you haven't kept up with modern times.

I don't believe the Russians deny Red Army rapes, since at the time, it was regarded as an enormous problem and severe punishments were handed down - though, infrequently, due to discretion of local commanders and other priorities they had. Like fighting the Germans.

Some Russian historians have denied the scale of Red Army rapes iirc. I think that is the main contention point.

[Baltenstein]

A herculean effort at genocide, rape on a scale that disturbed officers of the SS, a systemic belief in the racial and cultural superiority of their people over those of the world, the fact that the underlying roots of these things were never addressed in Nippon, and to this day it is exquisitely racist, on a scale and in a fashion that the average American at least can't even begin to grasp.

That's just plain out stupid, modern Japanese people are not responsible for WW2, anymore than any other nation is.

They are not, however one can accuse Japan and Russia of inappropriate remembrance and historical portrayal policies in regard to the World War 2 events. An even worse offender is Turkey, which has engaged in official genocide denial since its foundation.

[Padnak]

You are clearly verrry familiar with the PLA. I will make sure to defer to you and your extensive knowledge for all questions I have about military matters, expect my call on the 32nd of every month, shortly after I set myself on fire.

The PLA has outdated battle tanks, low mechanisation, outdated combat aircraft, outdated naval vessels, outdated air defences, outdated coastal defences, zero amphibious capability and no present carrier capability.
The limit of their present capability is to fight a dug-in defence of the Chinese mainland by massing their coastal and air defences, and making use of their excellent coverage of the China seas with aircraft, or maybe bolster the Norks again.

look at all those totally not Chinese marines doing totally not amphibious landings

Not saying that anything about their military is good, just pointing out that they do have amphibious capabilities, if only in a limited sense

(Don't they have two amphibious assault ships if I recall correctly)

[The Grey Wolf]

That's just plain out stupid, modern Japanese people are not responsible for WW2, anymore than any other nation is. Several nations during WW2 engaged in atrocities, Russia and Germany were no less innocent in that regard, and even today, the former denies rapes by Red Army troops. Racism is a problem all over the world, in case you haven't kept up with modern times.

I don't believe the Russians deny Red Army rapes, since at the time, it was regarded as an enormous problem and severe punishments were handed down - though, infrequently, due to discretion of local commanders and other priorities they had. Like fighting the Germans.

No blame can be attached to the commanders, the majority of them tried to restrain their men the best they could, but when your unit is drunk and armed with submachine guns, not really much else you can do. But that isn't my point. Point is that the events are rather repressed in Russia, and soldiers who do speak out about it boast.

Back to my original point, hating modern Japan for WW2 is ridiculous, just as hating any other country for actions committed before the vast majority of modern inhabitants were even alive.

[Imperializt Russia]

The PLA has outdated battle tanks, low mechanisation, outdated combat aircraft, outdated naval vessels, outdated air defences, outdated coastal defences, zero amphibious capability and no present carrier capability.
The limit of their present capability is to fight a dug-in defence of the Chinese mainland by massing their coastal and air defences, and making use of their excellent coverage of the China seas with aircraft, or maybe bolster the Norks again.

look at all those totally not Chinese marines doing totally not amphibious landings

Not saying that anything about their military is good, just pointing out that they do have amphibious capabilities, if only in a limited sense

(Don't they have two amphibious assault ships if I recall correctly)

Chinese amphibious capability captured in its totality in a single photograph.
Still not enough to best mighty Taiwan.

[WestRedMaple]

Japan should give the land back.

They did(they weren't given much choice in that matter): it's now called Korea, China, Vietnam, Philippines, etc.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

Oddly enough, I was thinking the same thing... but we now live in a time where the US has previously used its Global Projection to have its own, slightly more terrifying gunboat diplomacy (remember when they stationed nukes in Turkey, and then the Soviet Union responded by stationing nukes in Cuba?).
The US has used violence to keep the world under its slightly tyrannical grip, for better or worse, in the past, now that's the language the world knows - no one would've dreamed that Russia would invade Ukraine over a mostly ignored territorial dispute except for completely insane Republican conservatives (*coughes loudly*), but then here we are.

That being said, I only expect this to increase tensions in Asia. While I agree in part that this is a sign of a decline in US power, I see these tensions as part of an unresolved social conflict between Japan and China over World War 2, and to a lesser extent, antiquated Cold War, Red Scare-esque, nonensical worries. The US, for all its power and love of justice, don't resolve any tensions between Japan and China, and now its all returning like a bad cancer, and its only going to grow more tense as time goes on.

That's realpolitik for you.

Any discussions of good, evil, or right and wrong deserve to be left behind at kindergarten whenever one talks about nationstate politics. Its really all about zero-sum (or fine anything that's not 50-50) games between countries that for better or worse have to balance each other if they don't want to be taken advantage of (or if they want to be taken advantage of... I don't judge ). That, and the current guarantors of international cooperation - the UN - are not exactly at their strongest unfortunately, in addition to that declining confidence in US promises of protection (its there, even if it's not as drastic as some would believe it to be).

Also, not like the US could really do anything to soothe Chinese-Japanese tensions. Trying to mediate extensive, historical and deep-rooted tensions between two rather different cultural systems is very difficult especially if the third party is just as alien to the first two as each other. Also, the US method of mediation (which is rooted in money and is concerned mostly with the present problem with little if any consideration for local context) rarely works when the tensions aren't just about some rocks in the ocean but stretch back to decades or centuries of bad-blood.

If only Commander Shepard was real.

[Tule]

Germany has a strong fighting force?

Second largest not-Russian tank force in Europe? I think the Poles actually have more serviceable tanks than the Russians do.
Wiki claims it to be the "fourth largest air force in Europe after the UK, France and Italy", yet it maintains about the same number of combat aircraft (Typhoons and Tornadoes) as the RAF. Germany is also home to American B-61 nuclear gravity bombs for delivery by USAF and Luftwaffe aircraft.

It's also the home of the Leopard 2, one of the most capable modern western battle tanks. The German tank concern Krauss-Maffei recently merged with French company Nexter (formerly GIAT - the French tank concern, constructor of the Leclerc, another of the west's most capable battle tanks) and is considering an all-new Leopard 3 tank design process.

The Bundeswehr has been underfunded since the reunification, so badly that much of their equipment isn't serviceable anymore.

I wouldn't be surprised if Poland could annex Germany.

[Napkiraly]

That's just plain out stupid, modern Japanese people are not responsible for WW2, anymore than any other nation is. Several nations during WW2 engaged in atrocities, Russia and Germany were no less innocent in that regard, and even today, the former denies rapes by Red Army troops. Racism is a problem all over the world, in case you haven't kept up with modern times.

I don't believe the Russians deny Red Army rapes, since at the time, it was regarded as an enormous problem and severe punishments were handed down - though, infrequently, due to discretion of local commanders and other priorities they had. Like fighting the Germans.

Some Russian historians have denied the scale of Red Army rapes iirc. I think that is the main contention point.

[Imperializt Russia]

I don't believe the Russians deny Red Army rapes, since at the time, it was regarded as an enormous problem and severe punishments were handed down - though, infrequently, due to discretion of local commanders and other priorities they had. Like fighting the Germans.

Some Russian historians have denied the scale of Red Army rapes iirc. I think that is the main contention point.

You okay? You posted this forty minutes ago

[Imperializt Russia]

Second largest not-Russian tank force in Europe? I think the Poles actually have more serviceable tanks than the Russians do.
Wiki claims it to be the "fourth largest air force in Europe after the UK, France and Italy", yet it maintains about the same number of combat aircraft (Typhoons and Tornadoes) as the RAF. Germany is also home to American B-61 nuclear gravity bombs for delivery by USAF and Luftwaffe aircraft.

It's also the home of the Leopard 2, one of the most capable modern western battle tanks. The German tank concern Krauss-Maffei recently merged with French company Nexter (formerly GIAT - the French tank concern, constructor of the Leclerc, another of the west's most capable battle tanks) and is considering an all-new Leopard 3 tank design process.

The Bundeswehr has been underfunded since the reunification, so badly that much of their equipment isn't serviceable anymore.

I wouldn't be surprised if Poland could annex Germany.

The Poles are underequipped from what I remember. As of 2011, they had 900 tanks or so, of which 700 were in the Land Forces. I recall them having a couple thousand tanks.

[Novaya Equestria]

*Thumbs up*

[The Huskar Social Union]

And so it begins..

Sorry could not resist posting that, anyway interesting news but i dont think now is the right time to beef up your military spending when you are facing economic issues.

In that case Japan should never beef up it's military because they're always facing economic difficulties. If I were them I would try dealing with the deflation and stagnant economy before spending on the military.

Same, that should be the main focus.

[Napkiraly]

Some Russian historians have denied the scale of Red Army rapes iirc. I think that is the main contention point.

You okay? You posted this forty minutes ago

Computer and internets in my part of London are awry