The Greatest Gun Bill Ever

[Korva]

It's already there. In the form of driving sober, with a seatbelt on, after passing a written examination and driving test.

And if a car involved in a fatality is defective, the car manufacturer can be sued. Good luck suing a gun manufacturer for anything.

You can sue gun manufacturers for manufacturing defects, design defects, and warning defects...

[Cascadeland]

Martial arts proficiency is not a substitute for a gun when having a bad encounter with criminals that intend to harm you. It is especially not a smart deterrance against a knife-wielding criminal.

http://crime.about.com/b/2008/03/24/mer ... urvive.htm

This is the case of Meredith Emerson (one of many like it). It pretty much refutes the illusion that one can be a super proficient martial arts expert, or even a highly trained, and successfully deter a determined person trying to murder you.

The odds of successfully using martial arts to stop determined criminals are about as rare as incidents where mass shooters were stopped by unarmed persons or an armed person not deterring a criminal. It is unwise to use any unusual events as a standard-bearer for dealing with such situations.

As far as the UK goes, I have no respect for a nation's government that does not hold in high regard an individual's inherent right to self-defense. How far they have strayed since English Common Law is staggering to think about, and is a perfect example of the mad hatter logic behind unquestioning compliance to authoritarianism in the name of "security".

[Imperializt Russia]

Firearms not handguns dropped in homicides committed with relative steadiness from 1976 to 2004.
Handgun homicides exploded from the mid 1980s to 1993, then dropped to the same level in the mid 80s by 1999, and stayed at about that level to 2004. The chart ends in 2004, of course.

In 1994, the Assault Weapon Ban was introduced. It had little to no impact on the use of long arms in homicides. It also introduced a raft of other measures, such as criminalising gang membership. This measure alone probably had a significant impact on the use of handguns in homicide.
Handgun use in homicide stopped declining in 1998, the year NICS was introduced.

That period of increased homicide only lasted 4 years, there must be some event that it can be tied to.

Handgun homicides almost doubled over an eight year period from 1985 to 1993.

[Alien Space Bats]

But then Flint's had a violence problem since the 1960s.

No, since the late 1970's. I grew up in Genesee County; Flint was fairly safe back in the 60's (i.e., back when it had the lowest unemployment rate in the U.S.).

[Big Jim P]

The anti-gun cultists always screams "blood in the streets" every time gun restrictions are eased. They are always wrong. You would think they would have learned by now.

I don't see what was so restrictive about concealed carry permits.

I was referring to the fact that many states are easing restrictions and moving to a less restrictive "shall issue" stance (or even less restrictive "constitutional carry"). When Florida started the trend, Anti-gunners predicted blood in the streets, and have repeated that prediction every time any state has done so. They have yet to be right.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

My god, open carry without a license! This will just repeat the disasters that are Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine!

The wealth of evidence provided on the topic that proves its dangers and the lack of assumption by the OP that poor people automatically become criminals when armed has convinced me. <sarcasm>

So much this

But really what I really love is the way the OP is written - as if the bill for openly carrying handguns is a particularly evil/bad case of bills for openly carrying handguns. As if those would be bad.

Do you love to shit on logic or what? Cause that is exactly what you're doing. Please tell me more about how allowing the open carry of a type of firearm for which the most common argument for regulation is ease of concealment, is bad.

[Gauthier]

My god, open carry without a license! This will just repeat the disasters that are Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine!

The wealth of evidence provided on the topic that proves its dangers and the lack of assumption by the OP that poor people automatically become criminals when armed has convinced me. <sarcasm>

So much this

But really what I really love is the way the OP is written - as if the bill for openly carrying handguns is a particularly evil/bad case of bills for openly carrying handguns. As if those would be bad.

Do you love to shit on logic or what? Cause that is exactly what you're doing. Please tell me more about how allowing the open carry of a type of firearm for which the most common argument for regulation is ease of concealment, is bad.

Funny you're accusing me of being the one shitting on logic. I wasn't having a problem with open carry. The problem is open carry *WITHOUT* a need for a gun permit. Because hey, letting anyone buy a gun who merely has to be able to afford one will magically prevent a tragedy in the making.

[Big Jim P]

So much this

But really what I really love is the way the OP is written - as if the bill for openly carrying handguns is a particularly evil/bad case of bills for openly carrying handguns. As if those would be bad.

Do you love to shit on logic or what? Cause that is exactly what you're doing. Please tell me more about how allowing the open carry of a type of firearm for which the most common argument for regulation is ease of concealment, is bad.

Funny you're accusing me of being the one shitting on logic. I wasn't having a problem with open carry. The problem is open carry *WITHOUT* a need for a gun permit. Because hey, letting anyone buy a gun who merely has to be able to afford one will magically prevent a tragedy in the making.

You forgot to mention one minor detail: Can afford one and is legally allowed to own one.

[Gauthier]

Funny you're accusing me of being the one shitting on logic. I wasn't having a problem with open carry. The problem is open carry *WITHOUT* a need for a gun permit. Because hey, letting anyone buy a gun who merely has to be able to afford one will magically prevent a tragedy in the making.

You forgot to mention one minor detail: Can afford one and is legally allowed to own one.

Funny that. I could swear gun regulations are about deciding who is legally allowed to own guns, but gun regulations are EEEEEBIL.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Funny you're accusing me of being the one shitting on logic. I wasn't having a problem with open carry. The problem is open carry *WITHOUT* a need for a gun permit. Because hey, letting anyone buy a gun who merely has to be able to afford one will magically prevent a tragedy in the making.

You forgot to mention one minor detail: Can afford one and is legally allowed to own one.

And how do we prove who is legally allowed to own one without a licensing and registration requirement?

[Big Jim P]

You forgot to mention one minor detail: Can afford one and is legally allowed to own one.

Funny that. I could swear gun regulations are about deciding who is legally allowed to own guns, but gun regulations are EEEEEBIL.

As is typical of the gun control crowd, you left out an important part of the bill. Intentionally?

[Big Jim P]

You forgot to mention one minor detail: Can afford one and is legally allowed to own one.

And how do we prove who is legally allowed to own one without a licensing and registration requirement?

Presumption of innocence.

[Gauthier]

And how do we prove who is legally allowed to own one without a licensing and registration requirement?

Presumption of innocence.

Seung-Hui Cho, Jared Loughner and James Holmes clearly had screaming red flags over their faces when they bought their guns.

[Atlanticatia]

Not going to lie, my first reaction would be to leave somewhere if I saw someone open carrying. I'd feel uncomfortable. I've never seen anyone do it around here though. (NJ)

But like, those people who bring military style weapons (and any kind of firearm in general) into Wal-Mart? I'd be out of there in a second if I saw that.

I do think that if people are going to open carry they shouldn't bring them into public places like stores where people might not want to be around that. Just out of courtesy to other people. You don't need to bring your AK-47 to the local grocery store. Standing in a grocery aisle next to someone who's armed to the teeth isn't exactly an experience I want to have.

[Ripoll]

Not going to lie, my first reaction would be to leave somewhere if I saw someone open carrying. I'd feel uncomfortable. I've never seen anyone do it around here though. (NJ)

But like, those people who bring military style weapons (and any kind of firearm in general) into Wal-Mart? I'd be out of there in a second if I saw that.

I do think that if people are going to open carry they shouldn't bring them into public places like stores where people might not want to be around that. Just out of courtesy to other people. You don't need to bring your AK-47 to the local grocery store. Standing in a grocery aisle next to someone who's armed to the teeth isn't exactly an experience I want to have.

I completely agree with personally speaking, it's bad enough being in the same store with people who dress improperly, but being in a room with armed strangers? The only armed people I'm comfortable with are the Coast Guard, National Guard, local police departments, state police departments, and the Secret Service.

[Ripoll]

And how do we prove who is legally allowed to own one without a licensing and registration requirement?

Presumption of innocence.

.....is still upheld

[New Aerios]

Not going to lie, my first reaction would be to leave somewhere if I saw someone open carrying. I'd feel uncomfortable. I've never seen anyone do it around here though. (NJ)

But like, those people who bring military style weapons (and any kind of firearm in general) into Wal-Mart? I'd be out of there in a second if I saw that.

I do think that if people are going to open carry they shouldn't bring them into public places like stores where people might not want to be around that. Just out of courtesy to other people. You don't need to bring your AK-47 to the local grocery store. Standing in a grocery aisle next to someone who's armed to the teeth isn't exactly an experience I want to have.

I completely agree with personally speaking, it's bad enough being in the same store with people who dress improperly, but being in a room with armed strangers? The only armed people I'm comfortable with are the Coast Guard, National Guard, local police departments, state police departments, and the Secret Service.

Why? They're the only armed people who can shoot you dead and get away with it.

[Ripoll]

I completely agree with personally speaking, it's bad enough being in the same store with people who dress improperly, but being in a room with armed strangers? The only armed people I'm comfortable with are the Coast Guard, National Guard, local police departments, state police departments, and the Secret Service.

Why? They're the only armed people who can shoot you dead and get away with it.

Because I don't have an irrational hatred for lawful authority and I realize that crime is a much bigger problem than Police corruption at this point in time in my area.

[Spreewerke]

Not going to lie, my first reaction would be to leave somewhere if I saw someone open carrying. I'd feel uncomfortable. I've never seen anyone do it around here though. (NJ)

But like, those people who bring military style weapons (and any kind of firearm in general) into Wal-Mart? I'd be out of there in a second if I saw that.

I do think that if people are going to open carry they shouldn't bring them into public places like stores where people might not want to be around that. Just out of courtesy to other people. You don't need to bring your AK-47 to the local grocery store. Standing in a grocery aisle next to someone who's armed to the teeth isn't exactly an experience I want to have.

I have no issues with people OCing (even rifles, assuming it's deer season or for an actual purpose (at their farm, etc.)). I gotta say, though, people that carry ARs or AKs in a horrifically unsafe manner (improper sling use, lack of a sling, waving it around, showing it off, etc.) are complete and utter morons.

I've open-carried an AK into our place of business before due to circumstance. I didn't make it a point to tell everyone how big my penis is or "MUH RIGHTS!" I've open-carried a sidearm hundreds of times. Never once felt the need to point myself out to anyone. I am actually OCing right now, but I'm in my home, so technically I am not?

If anything, I've had more people mistake me for a law enforcement officer than I've had people freak out and think I was a criminal/crazy. The only time I draw attention to myself is when I correct them with a "no, I am not a law enforcement officer" or "no, I am not crazy, my line of work just involves firearms."

[Tule]

Not going to lie, my first reaction would be to leave somewhere if I saw someone open carrying. I'd feel uncomfortable. I've never seen anyone do it around here though. (NJ)

But like, those people who bring military style weapons (and any kind of firearm in general) into Wal-Mart? I'd be out of there in a second if I saw that.

I do think that if people are going to open carry they shouldn't bring them into public places like stores where people might not want to be around that. Just out of courtesy to other people. You don't need to bring your AK-47 to the local grocery store. Standing in a grocery aisle next to someone who's armed to the teeth isn't exactly an experience I want to have.

Not sure if I would go as far as making a detour around them, but I do find the idea ridiculous.

If you don't think the government is doing enough to curb crime, demand that the government does a better job. Order is the state's responsibility, not yours.

"I can't carry a policeman on my hip!"

Yeah, because that's the only way police forces can keep the peace in a society, by being everywhere at all times. /s

To be clear though, I'm not referring to those who have a good reason to carry weapons openly for reasons other than self-defense, like hunters or pest control workers.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And how do we prove who is legally allowed to own one without a licensing and registration requirement?

Presumption of innocence.

So legally allowed to own one = let's hope and pray they're not mass murdering psychopaths?

[Paddy O Fernature]

Presumption of innocence.

So legally allowed to own one = let's hope and pray they're not mass murdering psychopaths?

[Occupied Deutschland]

Not going to lie, my first reaction would be to leave somewhere if I saw someone open carrying. I'd feel uncomfortable. I've never seen anyone do it around here though. (NJ)

But like, those people who bring military style weapons (and any kind of firearm in general) into Wal-Mart? I'd be out of there in a second if I saw that.

I do think that if people are going to open carry they shouldn't bring them into public places like stores where people might not want to be around that. Just out of courtesy to other people. You don't need to bring your AK-47 to the local grocery store. Standing in a grocery aisle next to someone who's armed to the teeth isn't exactly an experience I want to have.

Oh sure, I never liked the folks who carried long-arms into stores (barring situations in hunting season where the other option was leaving it in a vehicle unattended which falls under 'extenuating circumstances'), even the protests that do such I'd object to (go to a state park or something, not Wal-Mart or Target). That said, I've seen enough people carrying pistols into stores where I live (often because, again, the other option is leaving them in the vehicle which isn't a good idea) that it doesn't bother me, and I'd consider a fright of such without any other factors as a bit ridiculous, but to each their own.

Different states, different cultures. Where I live when I open-carried (due to me letting my CCL lapse for a while) the most common reaction was someone inquiring what I was carrying and making small-talk on the subject. The most negative it ever got was someone incredulously asking me 'What do you think you need a gun for?' to which my 'Nothing right now, I just carry it everywhere because I do a lot of work out in the woods.' was a perfectly satisfactory answer.

I can see how the action gets tamped down somewhat and perceived as less normal or necessary by living in a city that isn't within twenty miles of national forest or state forest lands.

I completely agree with personally speaking, it's bad enough being in the same store with people who dress improperly, but being in a room with armed strangers? The only armed people I'm comfortable with are the Coast Guard, National Guard, local police departments, state police departments, and the Secret Service.

I don't know, judging by some of the police I've dealt with, I'm decidedly uncomfortable with them having firearms compared to some of the strangers I see carrying. (This is mainly a rhetorical headstand of your point, and primarily sarcastic/ironic)

It's also confusing in many states because CCL licenses are shall-issue much of the time and you'll never have the warning of knowing they have a firearm. In some ways I'd say open-carrying is a bit more friendly to those who are uncomfortable with firearms precisely because it lets you know and warns you who your (somewhat irrational and I'd say prejudiced and unfair) concerns should be focused on. Though that argument over concealed versus open I go back and forth on on a very situational basis.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

So legally allowed to own one = let's hope and pray they're not mass murdering psychopaths?

I'm not against guns. I own a couple.

My concern is how do we know who is legally allowed to own/carry. I'm against a total ban, but licensing and gun education would be nice.

[Paddy O Fernature]

I'm not against guns. I own a couple.

My concern is how do we know who is legally allowed to own/carry.

NICS.