The Greatest Gun Bill Ever

[Cannabis Islands]

Notice I said that a person was to be reviewed by a metal health professional. And I don't know, but in the United States, saying shit like that will do more than having your 2nd amendment rights being taken away. No, I don't believe that a person that initiate fights should own a firearm, even if its for shits and giggles. If a person wants to go up to a complete stranger and punch them, then that person should be prohibited from owning a firearm.

Edit: And you claim your English, well because of the UK strict gun laws, UK nationals don't have deal with mass murder, such as school shooting as much as we Americans do. In America, a mentally ill person who just looks of age can buy a gun at a gun show without any background checks and commit mass murder. That is the reality that Americans, not the British or any other European has to deal with.

It's not just an access issue, it's a cultural problem in the US.

And I agree with that, but in the United States, people are killing people with guns ever fucking day. Fuck, my girlfriend used to live in "the hood" were there was gunshots every night, and I mean every fucking night. She fucking got shot in the leg from a drive-by.

Europeans, especially the British, don't deal with these issues. And before anyone brings up the knife issue, you can learn martial arts and learn how to take down a person that has a knife. Not so with a fucking AR-15

[Imperializt Russia]

I'd argue not, since a knife attack can be lightning quick and brutal.

When American cops were asked as part of a demonstration what to do about a knife-wielding attacker, their response was pretty unanimously "I'll just shoot him".
In the actual demonstration, they all would have been killed or gravely injured.

Firearms offences are very common in the UK. Of course, by their very nature if a nation has a lot of firearms laws, there are going to be a lot of infractions. We have a large number of crimes committed with imitation firearms, where the weapon is passed off as being a live-firing weapon. Since few American criminals actually discharge their weapons in the commission of crimes (excepting, of course, murder), this makes no functional difference. A firearm is being used to intimidate others in the commission of a crime. The outcome is identical to if it occurred in the US, and it transpired the weapon was never loaded.

[Cannabis Islands]

I'd argue not, since a knife attack can be lightning quick and brutal.

When American cops were asked as part of a demonstration what to do about a knife-wielding attacker, their response was pretty unanimously "I'll just shoot him".
In the actual demonstration, they all would have been killed or gravely injured.

Firearms offences are very common in the UK. Of course, by their very nature if a nation has a lot of firearms laws, there are going to be a lot of infractions. We have a large number of crimes committed with imitation firearms, where the weapon is passed off as being a live-firing weapon. Since few American criminals actually discharge their weapons in the commission of crimes (excepting, of course, murder), this makes no functional difference. A firearm is being used to intimidate others in the commission of a crime. The outcome is identical to if it occurred in the US, and it transpired the weapon was never loaded.

Here you go:
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compa ... deaths/194 and...
here you go: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

[Imperializt Russia]

Well, the first link has nothing to do with what I said, and the second suggests that there are two million illegal firearms in Britain, of the four million estimated total, which I find highly unlikely.
It makes this assertion on the basis that the source it cites list a low total of 2 million and a high total of 4.7 million, a uselessly wide figure.

The source that Small Arms Survey 2007 cites for its high "estimate" of four million is a British newspaper op-ed from 2005. Which states in the title there are "four million guns in the UK".
It makes no effort to substantiate this claim at any point in the article.

[Cannabis Islands]

Well, the first link has nothing to do with what I said, and the second suggests that there are two million illegal firearms in Britain, of the four million estimated total, which I find highly unlikely.
It makes this assertion on the basis that the source it cites list a low total of 2 million and a high total of 4.7 million, a uselessly wide figure.

Do you have any sources?

[Imperializt Russia]

I'm reading the citations of what you provided.
http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmi ... e-4-EN.pdf
Here's the origin of the "four million gun claim" as stated in Annexe 2 of the Small Arms Survey 2007:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 10182.html
One mention in the title - no substantiation. This was apparently sufficient for a "comprehensive" study.

[Big Jim P]

The greatest thing, if this passes, is that I have already decided on my primary carry piece and my backup/concealed carry piece.

[Korva]

And before anyone brings up the knife issue, you can learn martial arts and learn how to take down a person that has a knife. Not so with a fucking AR-15

If you go into a knife fight with your bare hands you are going to wind up being stabbed to death :/

[Cannabis Islands]

And before anyone brings up the knife issue, you can learn martial arts and learn how to take down a person that has a knife. Not so with a fucking AR-15

If you go into a knife fight with your bare hands you are going to wind up being stabbed to death :/

I have taken Krave Maga, and would happily kick any guy in the balls that pulls a knife on me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpUbJGGcYH4

[Imperializt Russia]

You won't always get that chance. Even with self-defence training.

A responsible teacher would probably tell you that it will be best to either acquiesce or just run away, because knives are fucking terrifying weapons of close combat. Where's the point in being killed?

[Big Jim P]

It's not just an access issue, it's a cultural problem in the US.

And I agree with that, but in the United States, people are killing people with guns ever fucking day. Fuck, my girlfriend used to live in "the hood" were there was gunshots every night, and I mean every fucking night. She fucking got shot in the leg from a drive-by.

Europeans, especially the British, don't deal with these issues. And before anyone brings up the knife issue, you can learn martial arts and learn how to take down a person that has a knife. Not so with a fucking AR-15

And people are defending themselves and others with guns every day, including (no doubt) the killings you mentioned. Remember, not every killing is murder.

[Spreewerke]

Again, you don't seem to be arguing against anything I have actually said.
You're throwing "mental illness" and "PTSD" around as buzzwords. I'm asking you to establish what traits of mental illness in general (thereby specific aspects of specific conditions) and of PTSD you believe make a person dangerous.

I will say it again and put it in bold. If a person is ruled by a mental health professional as a danger to themselves and/or others, then they should be prohibited from owning a gun. If a person has a history of violence, like spouse abuse, child abuse, violent outbursts that resulted in themselves or others in getting hurt and ETC.

According to your argument, one should be able to buy a firearm, even if they just were in the hospital for thinking about killing themselves and/or thinking about hurting/killing others, because they "haven't committed a crime yet". Is that your argument, why is that. I've done enough of explaining my points.

The people you are talking about are already prohibited from purchasing a firearm. Maybe you should actually research the topic you've gotten yourself so involved in at this point. Here is the form to purchase a firearm in the United States (barring NFA items): https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/downloa ... 4473-1.pdf

These forms are to be kept by the FFL for a minimum of 20 years, but since the BATFE can ask to pull records whenever they want, because alphabet soup agents, most FFLs just keep them forever. Keeping 4473s forever is also easier than going back and trying to find which forms are "exactly 20 years old yesterday."

[Southern Hampshire]

It's not just an access issue, it's a cultural problem in the US.

And I agree with that, but in the United States, people are killing people with guns ever fucking day. Fuck, my girlfriend used to live in "the hood" were there was gunshots every night, and I mean every fucking night. She fucking got shot in the leg from a drive-by.

Europeans, especially the British, don't deal with these issues. And before anyone brings up the knife issue, you can learn martial arts and learn how to take down a person that has a knife. Not so with a fucking AR-15

Ah yes, Britain, the world haven and epitome of crime-free society.

The place where police officers are deployed with batons and tasers to a terrorist attack in the middle of the Capital.

The lovely country with higher crime index than ZAMBIA and SUDAN.

The country with half the crimes of the US but less than one fifth of it's population.

Third highest rape ratio in OECD. Country most likely to be assaulted in OECD (2100 cases per 100k. That's 1100 more than the next country. Brilliant bruv.)

Country most likely to get your vehicle stolen.

Perfect example, man. UK gun control best in the world. Also more gun-related deaths than Ukraine (where 5 year olds buy guns for candy)

[Imperializt Russia]

We used to issue shotgun licences to under-10s.
Until someone complained and thought it was inappropriate.

[Warpspace]

I'd argue not, since a knife attack can be lightning quick and brutal.

When American cops were asked as part of a demonstration what to do about a knife-wielding attacker, their response was pretty unanimously "I'll just shoot him".
In the actual demonstration, they all would have been killed or gravely injured.

Firearms offences are very common in the UK. Of course, by their very nature if a nation has a lot of firearms laws, there are going to be a lot of infractions. We have a large number of crimes committed with imitation firearms, where the weapon is passed off as being a live-firing weapon. Since few American criminals actually discharge their weapons in the commission of crimes (excepting, of course, murder), this makes no functional difference. A firearm is being used to intimidate others in the commission of a crime. The outcome is identical to if it occurred in the US, and it transpired the weapon was never loaded.

People underestimate knives too much. IIRC it's something like a twenty foot rule, where within twenty feet, a guy wielding a knife can down a cop before he can pull out his gun.

Although, knives aren't inherently lethal. It's actually fairly easy to survive stab wounds depending on the size of the blade, the problem comes when they start going for the arteries or simply pump the blade like a prison stabbing.

[Mike the Progressive]

You do realize that guns kill about as many people in the US as cars? and that two thirds of gun deaths in the US are suicides? And that cars injure about 2 million people while guns only injure about 80,000 people?

I'm far more worried about being killed by a car than by a gun.

Where are the liberal's calling for car control?

It's already there. In the form of driving sober, with a seatbelt on, after passing a written examination and driving test.

[Gauthier]

Where are the liberal's calling for car control?

It's already there. In the form of driving sober, with a seatbelt on, after passing a written examination and driving test.

And if a car involved in a fatality is defective, the car manufacturer can be sued. Good luck suing a gun manufacturer for anything.

[Mike the Progressive]

It's already there. In the form of driving sober, with a seatbelt on, after passing a written examination and driving test.

And if a car involved in a fatality is defective, the car manufacturer can be sued. Good luck suing a gun manufacturer for anything.

Yep. So car control is there and has been there for some time.

[Spirit of Hope]

It's already there. In the form of driving sober, with a seatbelt on, after passing a written examination and driving test.

And if a car involved in a fatality is defective, the car manufacturer can be sued. Good luck suing a gun manufacturer for anything.

The car manufacture can only be sued if the fatality can be proven to be the fault of the car manufacture. If you can prove that the gun was manufactured incorrectly and that caused the fatality you would be free to sue them.

Where are the liberal's calling for car control?

It's already there. In the form of driving sober, with a seatbelt on, after passing a written examination and driving test.

Yes and cars still kill just as many people as guns, and injure way more.

[Gauthier]

And if a car involved in a fatality is defective, the car manufacturer can be sued. Good luck suing a gun manufacturer for anything.

The car manufacture can only be sued if the fatality can be proven to be the fault of the car manufacture. If you can prove that the gun was manufactured incorrectly and that caused the fatality you would be free to sue them.

It's already there. In the form of driving sober, with a seatbelt on, after passing a written examination and driving test.

Yes and cars still kill just as many people as guns, and injure way more.

And how often do we have mass hit and runs?

[Spirit of Hope]

The car manufacture can only be sued if the fatality can be proven to be the fault of the car manufacture. If you can prove that the gun was manufactured incorrectly and that caused the fatality you would be free to sue them.



Yes and cars still kill just as many people as guns, and injure way more.

And how often do we have mass hit and runs?

Well, a car hit 12 people in a crosswalk near where I live in the last month. And there have only been 160 mass shootings from 200-2013, so they are very rare if that is the comparison you are trying to make.

[Mike the Progressive]

It's already there. In the form of driving sober, with a seatbelt on, after passing a written examination and driving test.

Yes and cars still kill just as many people as guns, and injure way more.

The question was where are the liberals calls for car control and I gave an answer.

Also compared to how many injuries and deaths there are now compared to before, I'd say regulations put into place has done a considerable amount of good.

[Imperializt Russia]

I'd argue not, since a knife attack can be lightning quick and brutal.

When American cops were asked as part of a demonstration what to do about a knife-wielding attacker, their response was pretty unanimously "I'll just shoot him".
In the actual demonstration, they all would have been killed or gravely injured.

Firearms offences are very common in the UK. Of course, by their very nature if a nation has a lot of firearms laws, there are going to be a lot of infractions. We have a large number of crimes committed with imitation firearms, where the weapon is passed off as being a live-firing weapon. Since few American criminals actually discharge their weapons in the commission of crimes (excepting, of course, murder), this makes no functional difference. A firearm is being used to intimidate others in the commission of a crime. The outcome is identical to if it occurred in the US, and it transpired the weapon was never loaded.

People underestimate knives too much. IIRC it's something like a twenty foot rule, where within twenty feet, a guy wielding a knife can down a cop before he can pull out his gun.

Although, knives aren't inherently lethal. It's actually fairly easy to survive stab wounds depending on the size of the blade, the problem comes when they start going for the arteries or simply pump the blade like a prison stabbing.

Pretty much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo
The video I referred to.

[Spirit of Hope]

Yes and cars still kill just as many people as guns, and injure way more.

The question was where are the liberals calls for car control and I gave an answer.

Also compared to how many injuries and deaths there are now compared to before, I'd say regulations put into place has done a considerable amount of good.

And the same could be said about guns, since 1992 the homicide rate has almost decreased by half.

[Mike the Progressive]

The question was where are the liberals calls for car control and I gave an answer.

Also compared to how many injuries and deaths there are now compared to before, I'd say regulations put into place has done a considerable amount of good.

And the same could be said about guns, since 1992 the homicide rate has almost decreased by half.

The homicide rate by guns?