Estonian Parliamentary Election, 2015

[Alsheb]

I'm saying this as a person who finds nationalism, especially the ethnic kind, distasteful, but for some reason the foreigners who are quick to condemn the Baltic states for extreme nationalism and treating their Russian minorities unfairly, do not seem to have a problem with Russian nationalism which, to be honest, is quite rampant and has been that way since the Soviet era.

I wouldn't say that Estonian language requirement is nationalistic. I mean it's quite obvious that if you go to Finland you learn Finnish, if you go to England you learn English, if you go to Russia you learn Russian but if Estonia asks people to learn Estonian it makes Estonia extremely nationalistic.

Well, this is a rather significant minority. So it would make sense to keep their language as well as a language of some importance and recognition in the country.

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

I wouldn't say that Estonian language requirement is nationalistic. I mean it's quite obvious that if you go to Finland you learn Finnish, if you go to England you learn English, if you go to Russia you learn Russian but if Estonia asks people to learn Estonian it makes Estonia extremely nationalistic.

Oh boy... Yeah, I get why you read it that way but obviously I wasn't clear enough, so: what I said contained absolutely no statement regarding actual Estonian policies. I was pointing out that there are a lot of people to tend to lay blame on Baltic countries but seem to be blind about Russian transgressions or find some way to justify them.

And absolutely, anyone moving to another country should learn the local language, especially if they expect to become a citizen.

[Teemant]

I wouldn't say that Estonian language requirement is nationalistic. I mean it's quite obvious that if you go to Finland you learn Finnish, if you go to England you learn English, if you go to Russia you learn Russian but if Estonia asks people to learn Estonian it makes Estonia extremely nationalistic.

Well, this is a rather significant minority. So it would make sense to keep their language as well as a language of some importance and recognition in the country.

It is a significant minority but how can this country work if Estonians and Russians cannot communicate with each other.

[Alsheb]

Well, this is a rather significant minority. So it would make sense to keep their language as well as a language of some importance and recognition in the country.

It is a significant minority but how can this country work if Estonians and Russians cannot communicate with each other.

Bilingualism. It used to work pretty well in Belgium, until the nationalists here screwed it up.

[Teemant]

I wouldn't say that Estonian language requirement is nationalistic. I mean it's quite obvious that if you go to Finland you learn Finnish, if you go to England you learn English, if you go to Russia you learn Russian but if Estonia asks people to learn Estonian it makes Estonia extremely nationalistic.

Oh boy... Yeah, I get why you read it that way but obviously I wasn't clear enough, so: what I said contained absolutely no statement regarding actual Estonian policies. I was pointing out that there are a lot of people to tend to lay blame on Baltic countries but seem to be blind about Russian transgressions or find some way to justify them.

And absolutely, anyone moving to another country should learn the local language, especially if they expect to become a citizen.

I wasn't directly replying to you but to the person you replied to and generally about this topic.

[Teemant]

It is a significant minority but how can this country work if Estonians and Russians cannot communicate with each other.

Bilingualism. It used to work pretty well in Belgium, until the nationalists here screwed it up.

I think that one and only official language in Estonia should be Estonian language. But even bilingualism means that Russians should learn Estonian language and when they learn how to speak Estonian there is no need for bilingualism.

[Scepez]

We all hope that, well except the Russians, but that hope always fades, as they always get a relatively large vote count.

Maybe that's because there are just a lot of Russians in Estonia? The russophobia in Baltic countries is something I always find very disturbing. Estonia is no Latvia, fortunately, but still.

What Russophobia? They've got it extremely easy, just sitting in Ida-Virumaa like a little hermit Kingdom, where they make up over 80% of the population. And a majority of them don't even speak the national language, hell some of them aren't even legal citizens, yet they complain like there's no tomorrow.

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

I suppose what I was getting at was that a lot of the problems with integration that the Baltic states face today have to do with nationalism. But it's wrong to only blame one side for it, because like it or not, Russian nationalism has itself played a big part in why the integration process has stalled for a long time. The attitude that Estonia is rightful Russian land, that non-Russians are some sort of subhumans and that Estonians should be thankful to Russians for "liberating" us during WW2 is very prevalent in a certain segment of the local Russian population. Let's not even start with official policies of the Russian Federation that considers the Baltic states as its "near-abroad" and rightfully in its sphere of influence.

But there is also enough blame to go around on Estonian side. While there is no institutionalized discrimination, the attitudes of people do need to change, on both sides, for our country to finally heal.

[Bandwagon]

Bilingualism. It used to work pretty well in Belgium, until the nationalists here screwed it up.

I think that one and only official language in Estonia should be Estonian language. But even bilingualism means that Russians should learn Estonian language and when they learn how to speak Estonian there is no need for bilingualism.

As a compromise you could make everybody have to study both languages?

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

I think that one and only official language in Estonia should be Estonian language. But even bilingualism means that Russians should learn Estonian language and when they learn how to speak Estonian there is no need for bilingualism.

As a compromise you could make everybody have to study both languages?

Short answer: no.
Long answer (well, not really, but at least more specific): To really understand how the current situation came to be, one needs to look at history. And not ancient history at that, but relatively recent events beginning with WW2. The current territory of Estonia had a small minority of Russians, the so-called Old Believers who escaped Russia after religious discrimination, for centuries. However, before WW2, the Estonian population was made up of around 90% of ethnic Estonians and around 10% of other nationalities, mainly Germans (side note: while for the last two centuries before declaring independence in 1918 Estonia was nominally part of the Russian Empire, the local nobility was actually made up of Germans who moved here after the Livonian Crusades; no serious attempts at russification were made before late 19th century and because of that Estonian culture has many similarities to Germany) and Russians. After the Soviet occupation and annexation of Estonia into the Soviet Union (and Russian nationalists can kick and scream however much they want that it was voluntary, doesn't make it true though), large population transfers began, first with deportations of Estonians to Siberia (where many died) and later with settling many Russians and other Soviet ethnicities to Estonia, especially Tallinn and the north-east of the country where most of the energy production and heavy industry was located. So by the time the Soviet Union finally collapsed and our independence was restored, Estonia had around 1/3 of its population speaking Russian or other Slavic languages as its native language.

Long story short: the situation today has mostly to do with grave historical injustice and unlike the immigrants in Western Europe that were invited there or the US, which is by its nature a country of immigrants, the situation in Estonia is way more delicate. And practice so far tends to show that if bilingualism were introduced, it would end up with Estonians learning both languages but Russians only learning Russian.

[Busen]

I'm saying this as a person who finds nationalism, especially the ethnic kind, distasteful, but for some reason the foreigners who are quick to condemn the Baltic states for extreme nationalism and treating their Russian minorities unfairly, do not seem to have a problem with Russian nationalism which, to be honest, is quite rampant and has been that way since the Soviet era.

I wouldn't say that Estonian language requirement is nationalistic. I mean it's quite obvious that if you go to Finland you learn Finnish, if you go to England you learn English, if you go to Russia you learn Russian but if Estonia asks people to learn Estonian it makes Estonia extremely nationalistic.

Ah just ignore such people. Usually the people who are making such comments have an Christian Orthodox background or a Communistic one. The best example of such people is this Giulleto Chiesa, who came in Estonia to lecture them about Arnold Meri, how they are fascist and so on. Chiesa is a person who still believes in stalinism and deluded due his ideology.

Such people are a minority but very loud.

They are only jealous because Estonia is a successful country when it comes to economy and democracy, contrary to their motherland Russia.

Union (and Russian nationalists can kick and scream however much they want that it was voluntary, doesn't make it true though).

Could you exmplain how exactly Estonia was annexed by the USSR? what event lead to the believe that Estonia and other Baltic states joined voluntarily to the USSR?

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

Union (and Russian nationalists can kick and scream however much they want that it was voluntary, doesn't make it true though).

Could you exmplain how exactly Estonia was annexed by the USSR? what event lead to the believe that Estonia and other Baltic states joined voluntarily to the USSR?

Short overview: in September of 1939 when Germany and the Soviet Union were busy invading Poland, the Soviet Union demanded a pact of mutual assistance from Estonia which would have allowed tens of thousands of Soviet troops into Estonia. That was basically an ultimatum, it was either that or there would be war. Since the Estonian leadership determined that declining such a "generous" offer would result in an unwinnable conflict the government decided to accept it. Finland, who was given a similar ultimatum, did not accept Soviet demands and the result of that was the Winter War where the Soviets also used aircraft based in Estonia to attack Finland.

In June 1940, the Soviet Union demanded that additonal troops would be allowed into the country and a change in government. Estonia, again seeing that the only alternative would be war (and by now with the Soviet troops already present, the situation would have been even worse than in 1939), accepted and shortly afterwards what was basically an armed takeover of the country followed, staged as a democratic revolution or "will of the people"; sham elections were called after which the new puppet goverment "asked" for Estonia to be admitted to the Soviet Union. Repressions and deportations followed. The Soviets basically established a terror regime aimed at destroying Estonians as a nation.

Then, summer of 1941 came and the Germans rolled in. Unsurprisingly, after the horrors of the Soviet occupation (or annexation or whatever you want to call it), many Estonians greeted Germans as liberators. And for the average Estonian, the German occupation that followed, was preferable to the Soviet one since the Germans didn't show any particular inclination at wiping Estonians out and for many, life actually more or less returned to "normal" pre-Soviet times. Of course, during the German occupation, repressions continued but they were mainly targeted at the Jewish people and communist collaborators who were hated by the great majority of people after the horrors the Soviets committed here. Unfortunately, many Estonians took actively part in these crimes.

1944 arrives and Germany is losing the war. Seeing that the threat of another Soviet occupation was looming, many Estonians voluntarily joined the German army (although many were also illegally and forcibly drafted) to help keep the Soviets away from Estonia but since non-Germans were not welcome in the Wehrmacht, they had to do so in the ranks of the Waffen-SS. That fight was lost though and in the autumn of 1944 Estonia was once again occupied by the Soviet Union after which another wave of repressions followed and the situation only eased after the death of Stalin. The rest is history.

[Teemant]

Watched tax debate today in Postimees between Reform party and IRL (Pro Patria and Res Publica Union) and I think that Reform party has a better plan. Their plan is to reduce labour costs and cut taxes overally which I think is a pretty good idea.

[Alsheb]

As a compromise you could make everybody have to study both languages?

Short answer: no.
Long answer (well, not really, but at least more specific): To really understand how the current situation came to be, one needs to look at history. And not ancient history at that, but relatively recent events beginning with WW2. The current territory of Estonia had a small minority of Russians, the so-called Old Believers who escaped Russia after religious discrimination, for centuries. However, before WW2, the Estonian population was made up of around 90% of ethnic Estonians and around 10% of other nationalities, mainly Germans (side note: while for the last two centuries before declaring independence in 1918 Estonia was nominally part of the Russian Empire, the local nobility was actually made up of Germans who moved here after the Livonian Crusades; no serious attempts at russification were made before late 19th century and because of that Estonian culture has many similarities to Germany) and Russians. After the Soviet occupation and annexation of Estonia into the Soviet Union (and Russian nationalists can kick and scream however much they want that it was voluntary, doesn't make it true though), large population transfers began, first with deportations of Estonians to Siberia (where many died) and later with settling many Russians and other Soviet ethnicities to Estonia, especially Tallinn and the north-east of the country where most of the energy production and heavy industry was located. So by the time the Soviet Union finally collapsed and our independence was restored, Estonia had around 1/3 of its population speaking Russian or other Slavic languages as its native language.

Long story short: the situation today has mostly to do with grave historical injustice and unlike the immigrants in Western Europe that were invited there or the US, which is by its nature a country of immigrants, the situation in Estonia is way more delicate. And practice so far tends to show that if bilingualism were introduced, it would end up with Estonians learning both languages but Russians only learning Russian.

If bilingualism is law, what makes you say that Russians would still refuse to speak Estonian? Do you actually think that the Russian minority is so stubborn that they would refuse to learn Estonian, even if it is in the standard school curriculum?

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

Watched tax debate today in Postimees between Reform party and IRL (Pro Patria and Res Publica Union) and I think that Reform party has a better plan. Their plan is to reduce labour costs and cut taxes overally which I think is a pretty good idea.

I did as well and I agree, althoughly when judging solely from the perspective of debating skills, I'd give higher points to IRL. What I don't like about IRL's plan is that it makes calculating your income tax more difficult and at least at present it seems to be aimed directly at people who earn a particular amount of income (500€). Now, I don't really buy Reform's argument that it would lock these people into low wages forever because theoretically the numbers where tax collection begins can be moved up etc. But still, the idea doesn't treat people equally and this is mainly why I'm opposed to it. I'd much rather see the untaxed part of the income raised higher because while that would benefit everyone equally, the people with lower incomes would see a relatively larger gain.

[Teemant]

Watched tax debate today in Postimees between Reform party and IRL (Pro Patria and Res Publica Union) and I think that Reform party has a better plan. Their plan is to reduce labour costs and cut taxes overally which I think is a pretty good idea.

I did as well and I agree, althoughly when judging solely from the perspective of debating skills, I'd give higher points to IRL. What I don't like about IRL's plan is that it makes calculating your income tax more difficult and at least at present it seems to be aimed directly at people who earn a particular amount of income (500€). Now, I don't really buy Reform's argument that it would lock these people into low wages forever because theoretically the numbers where tax collection begins can be moved up etc. But still, the idea doesn't treat people equally and this is mainly why I'm opposed to it. I'd much rather see the untaxed part of the income raised higher because while that would benefit everyone equally, the people with lower incomes would see a relatively larger gain.

I think that it would lock these people into low wages because hiring specialists would be more expensive in Estonia if we tax every euro above 500 euros with 43%. But we know that specialists and industry with high added value are the ones who make salaries go up for everyone. People who earn like 400-600 euros tend to work in service sector which does not create added value at all. Salary growth leader can't be service sector or it would simply break the economy.
Estonia needs more industry which creates a lot of added value and for it to happen we must make Estonia attractive place for specialists. And specialists earn more than 500 euros.

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

If bilingualism is law, what makes you say that Russians would still refuse to speak Estonian? Do you actually think that the Russian minority is so stubborn that they would refuse to learn Estonian, even if it is in the standard school curriculum?

Let me put it this way. I'm opposed to bilingualism in general unless there are some very specific reasons for it, for example historically large native populations with different native languages. If a country were officially bilingual then what sort of incentive would anyone living there have to even learn both languages? I mean one would be enough, no?

During the Soviet era, the Estonian SSR was effectively bilingual and, yes, Russians and other newcomers did not learn Estonian because they did not need it. Estonians however mostly had to know Russian.

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

I think that it would lock these people into low wages because hiring specialists would be more expensive in Estonia if we tax every euro above 500 euros with 43%. But we know that specialists and industry with high added value are the ones who make salaries go up for everyone. People who earn like 400-600 euros tend to work in service sector which does not create added value at all. Salary growth leader can't be service sector or it would simply break the economy.
Estonia needs more industry which creates a lot of added value and for it to happen we must make Estonia attractive place for specialists. And specialists earn more than 500 euros.

What I meant was that the number 500 is not set in stone, as time goes by it can be raised higher. But I agree with you on other points.

[Busen]

...

Thanks for clarifying. This is so sad and tragic because what the Russians did. They have comiteed genocide there.

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

...

Thanks for clarifying. This is so sad and tragic because what the Russians did. They have comiteed genocide there.

To be honest, I'd be very careful with using the g-word. While the aim of the Soviets was definitely destroying the Estonian nation by either executing or deporting the political, cultural, military and etc leaders and elite and the more wealthy people and to create a single Soviet nation, there were no mass killings in the scale of the Holocaust. Although Estonia did lose a large percentage of its population as a result of the WW2, either by deaths or emigration. I'd also be careful with blaming solely Russians for what happened with many in the Soviet leadership being from other nationalities. That however does not change the fact that Russian culture and language were the dominant attributes in the Soviet system and therefore tend to represent its nature as Russian to the average person.

I think the most important thing today is to try and come to terms with what has happened in the past and try to move on. I do not believe in the concept of collective guilt and it would be unfair to blame the young Russians who were born here in the 1980's and later for the Soviet crimes. But they also need to accept that Estonia is an independent state and show willingness to do that, just as Estonians need to show willingness to accept them as equal members of the society. It's a two-way street.

[Bandwagon]

As a compromise you could make everybody have to study both languages?

Short answer: no.
Long answer (well, not really, but at least more specific): To really understand how the current situation came to be, one needs to look at history. And not ancient history at that, but relatively recent events beginning with WW2. The current territory of Estonia had a small minority of Russians, the so-called Old Believers who escaped Russia after religious discrimination, for centuries. However, before WW2, the Estonian population was made up of around 90% of ethnic Estonians and around 10% of other nationalities, mainly Germans (side note: while for the last two centuries before declaring independence in 1918 Estonia was nominally part of the Russian Empire, the local nobility was actually made up of Germans who moved here after the Livonian Crusades; no serious attempts at russification were made before late 19th century and because of that Estonian culture has many similarities to Germany) and Russians. After the Soviet occupation and annexation of Estonia into the Soviet Union (and Russian nationalists can kick and scream however much they want that it was voluntary, doesn't make it true though), large population transfers began, first with deportations of Estonians to Siberia (where many died) and later with settling many Russians and other Soviet ethnicities to Estonia, especially Tallinn and the north-east of the country where most of the energy production and heavy industry was located. So by the time the Soviet Union finally collapsed and our independence was restored, Estonia had around 1/3 of its population speaking Russian or other Slavic languages as its native language.

Long story short: the situation today has mostly to do with grave historical injustice and unlike the immigrants in Western Europe that were invited there or the US, which is by its nature a country of immigrants, the situation in Estonia is way more delicate. And practice so far tends to show that if bilingualism were introduced, it would end up with Estonians learning both languages but Russians only learning Russian.

In Ireland we didn't just send loads of invitations during the Celtic Tiger to Eastern Europe, they came to Ireland because their were lots of jobs at the time which Irish people didn't want to do. I know this is going to annoy you, but if the Russians in Ida-Viru County were so stubborn wouldn't they want to break away from Estonia? By what your saying it sounds like their is going to be a Donetsk/Luhansk situation pretty soon in Estonia.

[Napkiraly]

Short answer: no.
Long answer (well, not really, but at least more specific): To really understand how the current situation came to be, one needs to look at history. And not ancient history at that, but relatively recent events beginning with WW2. The current territory of Estonia had a small minority of Russians, the so-called Old Believers who escaped Russia after religious discrimination, for centuries. However, before WW2, the Estonian population was made up of around 90% of ethnic Estonians and around 10% of other nationalities, mainly Germans (side note: while for the last two centuries before declaring independence in 1918 Estonia was nominally part of the Russian Empire, the local nobility was actually made up of Germans who moved here after the Livonian Crusades; no serious attempts at russification were made before late 19th century and because of that Estonian culture has many similarities to Germany) and Russians. After the Soviet occupation and annexation of Estonia into the Soviet Union (and Russian nationalists can kick and scream however much they want that it was voluntary, doesn't make it true though), large population transfers began, first with deportations of Estonians to Siberia (where many died) and later with settling many Russians and other Soviet ethnicities to Estonia, especially Tallinn and the north-east of the country where most of the energy production and heavy industry was located. So by the time the Soviet Union finally collapsed and our independence was restored, Estonia had around 1/3 of its population speaking Russian or other Slavic languages as its native language.

Long story short: the situation today has mostly to do with grave historical injustice and unlike the immigrants in Western Europe that were invited there or the US, which is by its nature a country of immigrants, the situation in Estonia is way more delicate. And practice so far tends to show that if bilingualism were introduced, it would end up with Estonians learning both languages but Russians only learning Russian.

In Ireland we didn't just send loads of invitations during the Celtic Tiger to Eastern Europe, they came to Ireland because their were lots of jobs at the time which Irish people didn't want to do. I know this is going to annoy you, but if the Russians in Ida-Viru County were so stubborn wouldn't they want to break away from Estonia? By what your saying it sounds like their is going to be a Donetsk/Luhansk situation pretty soon in Estonia.

The idea of the situations being comparable is asinine. First and foremost, Estonia is a NATO member. Putin wont risk his shenanigans because of that. Secondly, the parts of Estonia don't have the same historical...connection or sentiment I guess you can say. There is much more sentiment involved with Ukraine and eastern Ukraine for a variety of political, cultural, and historical reasons that just doesn't exist in Estonia's situation.

As for the issue of the Russian minority, if the people in Estonia say that Estonian is the sole language that's it. That said acceptance of the Russian minority within Estonian society and allowing them to fully integrate also needs to happen and be promoted. As Tallinna said, it's a two way street.

[Teemant]

I simply have no words to describe this debate that I just watched on ETV. It was more like a comedy show. There is a reason why small parties are small. Ojuland seemed to be only one there that actually understood politics.

I'm even a little bit scared now after watching this debate.

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

I simply have no words to describe this debate that I just watched on ETV. It was more like a comedy show. There is a reason why small parties are small. Ojuland seemed to be only one there that actually understood politics.

I'm even a little bit scared now after watching this debate.

I hadn't seen such a fun debate in a long time. Although I do have to say I felt somewhat sorry for both Kristiina Ojuland (Party of People's Unity) and Rasmus Lahtvee (Estonian Greens) for having to share the screentime with the other two participants from the Independence Party and the United Left Party. Ojuland of course completely outclassed everyone else but she also has long foreign policy credentials, including having been Estonian foreign minister, so that was to be expected. Then again she provided the most scandalous comments of the evening by beginning with calling the people who recently left her party "garbage" and saying it was good to be rid of them. I was also positively surprised by Lahtvee who was the clear number two and way ahead of the remaining two; he seemed to have done his homework and spoke very clearly although at some points it seemed like he was making it up on the spot.

To clarify for other readers, today the four small parties (Party of People's Unity, Estonian Greens, Independence Party and United Left Party) were debating on security and foreign policy issues. The larger parties will be discussing the same topic next week.

[Teemant]

I simply have no words to describe this debate that I just watched on ETV. It was more like a comedy show. There is a reason why small parties are small. Ojuland seemed to be only one there that actually understood politics.

I'm even a little bit scared now after watching this debate.

I hadn't seen such a fun debate in a long time. Although I do have to say I felt somewhat sorry for both Kristiina Ojuland (Party of People's Unity) and Rasmus Lahtvee (Estonian Greens) for having to share the screentime with the other two participants from the Independence Party and the United Left Party. Ojuland of course completely outclassed everyone else but she also has long foreign policy credentials, including having been Estonian foreign minister, so that was to be expected. Then again she provided the most scandalous comments of the evening by beginning with calling the people who recently left her party "garbage" and saying it was good to be rid of them. I was also positively surprised by Lahtvee who was the clear number two and way ahead of the remaining two; he seemed to have done his homework and spoke very clearly although at some points it seemed like he was making it up on the spot.

To clarify for other readers, today the four small parties (Party of People's Unity, Estonian Greens, Independence Party and United Left Party) were debating on security and foreign policy issues. The larger parties will be discussing the same topic next week.

I think we will see much more interesting debate next week when 6 major (4 of them are in parliament) parties talk about these same issues. And I really hope that Free Party will send a better representative to TV. I think they have potential but maybe it was just too much hype.