Estonian Parliamentary Election, 2015

[Teemant]

Hell no, I'd hate to live in Estonia with their choice of political parties.
I'd probably choose the United Left Party though.

Generally, I try not to judge the livability of a place based on their political parties. Of course, I suppose you could judge a country on their political parties if the main political party of the nation actively suppresses their people, making the nation a hellhole.

Anyways, Estonia is quite a nice place, with low taxes, high levels of equality, fairly high social mobility, friendly people, and a growing economy. It's too bad the weather is shit.

What's best about Estonia is it's e-services.

For example:
You can vote in elections using internet.
Doctors prescription? Haven't seen one for a long time now. Just use ID card in pharmacy.
Banks internet services are seriously advanced. Banks are shutting down their offices because no one uses them anymore.

And many more.

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

But people living in Estonia must learn how to speak Estonian. It's hard for Estonians who don't speak Russian to get a job. Can you imagine? You can't get a job because you can't speak a foreign language. It just interests me how russian people in Estonia can learn English without any problems at all but when it comes to Estonian language we have huge problems that can't be overcome. I don't know if you noticed but there was (yesterday) an article in newspaper about that SDE politician had to communicate with elite russian school students in english.

I don't think that education policy has failed. They just need to give it more time. If we are going to change education policy every elections there will be no results at all.

Firstly, don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing for a bilingual state or anything like that. And I absolutely agree that all the people who want to become citizens need to be able to at least understand and speak Estonian in an adequate way. However, certain political forces, as I noted in my previous post, are trying to turn this into a nationalistic issue and how changing the strategy would be something like giving your ground away to the enemy. Just look at the article by Urmas Sutrop published today in Delfi: http://www.delfi.ee/news/riigikogu2015/ ... d=70561775 I mean, how can any sensible person take such fearmongering seriously? Threat to the state?

At this point in time, there are simply way too many practical - yes, practical, not political - reasons which make the current strategy unviable. For example Narva is 98% Russian-speaking which means people can live most of their lives there without ever needing to learn to speak Estonian. And there aren't enough qualified teachers there because Estonians generally don't want to move there which makes giving the kids a good education in Estonian even harder.

As for the jobs issue, yes that is a problem but you also need to remember that employers quite often require not only Estonian and Russian, but also English or some other foreign language skills, so what makes learning those languages objectively easier than learning Russian? By the way, I personally don't really buy the argument of "if they can learn English then they can learn Estonian just as easily". We can easily turn this question around and ask why can Estonian students learn English so easily but not Russian? I mean, objectively, both are foreign languages, so what's the difference? The truth is, these days English is pretty much the de facto international language and most of the entertainment (movies, music, TV series etc) comes in English. So young Russians can easily immerse themselves in English language even in Narva. Not so for the Estonian language. So, I think my point still remains such that first we should make sure that we actually have the systems in place to teach Russian kids Estonian and then start converting the schools.

And yes, before anyone takes this up, of course the language issue in Estonia is strongly influenced by the resentment that many Estonians feel for Russia and everything Russian-related because of historical reasons. I get that and these are understandable positions. I mean, just for an example, remember the opening of the new Kosmos IMAX cinema in Tallinn recently? Because its owner and investor was from Russia, the building has both the Estonian and Russian words for "cinema" written on it. Did you see how many people swore they'd never go there because of that? Do you think the reaction would have been the same if it had been written in Estonian and English? Of course not. But personally, I think it's time to grow up and learn to let go. Forcing young Russians to study in Estonian when they don't have the necessary skills for it yet will only rob them of quality education and creates more resentment for the Estonian state. We don't need that.

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

I'll just add that it's mostly a social issue and a very complex one at that. As I said, Estonians feel a lot of resentment for Russia and Russian language, but many Russians, whether justifiably or not, also feel resentment for Estonia. This is an issue that took almost 50 years to develop. It will not be solved overnight and to be honest, so far in the first 24 years of being independent again, not much has been done. Estonian politicians have simply been trying to ignore the issue hoping that the Russian-speaking population would assimilate or die off and many Russians have been living in their own bubble thinking Estonia's independence is a historical anomaly and are waiting for the return of the Soviet Union so there has been little initiative for co-operation on both sides. So personally I think it will take decades to fix these issues.

[Calimera II]

Hell no, I'd hate to live in Estonia with their choice of political parties.
I'd probably choose the United Left Party though.

Generally, I try not to judge the livability of a place based on their political parties. Of course, I suppose you could judge a country on their political parties if the main political party of the nation actively suppresses their people, making the nation a hellhole.

Anyways, Estonia is quite a nice place, with low taxes, high levels of equality, fairly high social mobility, friendly people, and a growing economy. It's too bad the weather is shit.

True, it's a very nice place. The weather is OK.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Generally, I try not to judge the livability of a place based on their political parties. Of course, I suppose you could judge a country on their political parties if the main political party of the nation actively suppresses their people, making the nation a hellhole.

Anyways, Estonia is quite a nice place, with low taxes, high levels of equality, fairly high social mobility, friendly people, and a growing economy. It's too bad the weather is shit.

True, it's a very nice place. The weather is OK.

Any climate with more cloudy days than sunny days is a climate I can't stand.

[Kantona]

But people living in Estonia must learn how to speak Estonian. It's hard for Estonians who don't speak Russian to get a job. Can you imagine? You can't get a job because you can't speak a foreign language. It just interests me how russian people in Estonia can learn English without any problems at all but when it comes to Estonian language we have huge problems that can't be overcome. I don't know if you noticed but there was (yesterday) an article in newspaper about that SDE politician had to communicate with elite russian school students in english.

I don't think that education policy has failed. They just need to give it more time. If we are going to change education policy every elections there will be no results at all.

All your effort to.integrate Russians to speak Estonian is useless. The truth is Russians wont learn the language nor do they want that. The best thing will be to recquire a language skill test for making any vote.

Russians in Estonia just think they have a got given right on everything. They are like muslim extremists in France.

But there is some ways that was used in some other countries like the Serbs did in Kosovo. First, they have purposely made the region economically poor and undeveloped. Second they made the local Serbs a de facto elite there by making them overpresented in the police and administration. Third, Estonians should after such policies start purchasing houses in Narva.

[Farnhamia]

But people living in Estonia must learn how to speak Estonian. It's hard for Estonians who don't speak Russian to get a job. Can you imagine? You can't get a job because you can't speak a foreign language. It just interests me how russian people in Estonia can learn English without any problems at all but when it comes to Estonian language we have huge problems that can't be overcome. I don't know if you noticed but there was (yesterday) an article in newspaper about that SDE politician had to communicate with elite russian school students in english.

I don't think that education policy has failed. They just need to give it more time. If we are going to change education policy every elections there will be no results at all.

All your effort to.integrate Russians to speak Estonian is useless. The truth is Russians wont learn the language nor do they want that. The best thing will be to recquire a language skill test for making any vote.

Russians in Estonia just think they have a got given right on everything. They are like muslim extremists in France.

But there is some ways that was used in some other countries like the Serbs did in Kosovo. First, they have purposely made the region economically poor and undeveloped. Second they made the local Serbs a de facto elite there by making them overpresented in the police and administration. Third, Estonians should after such policies start purchasing houses in Narva.

I take it that you are not fond of Russians. Be that as it may, you may not post derogatory things about an entire people or even a large group of those people simply for the purpose of scoring points against them. It's trolling because all it will do is elicit an angry response and you are duly *** warned for trolling. *** This is the second time in the last four days that a Moderator has had to warn you for this. You should consider changing your tone and your language before you make yourself unwelcome here.

Farnhamia, NationStates Game Moderator

[Jumalariik]

I would say either Conservative People's Party, or Reform Party. I don't like the seeming racism and euroskepticism of the CPP, but I do like the fact that their members went to the sinimäed for the ceremony while others didn't. I also like the nationalism.

[Baltenstein]

And of course, the majority of Non-ethnic Estonians living permanently in Estonia, including Russian native speakers, actually do learn and know Estonian.

Russian is still spoken as a secondary language by forty- to seventy-year-old ethnic Estonians, because Russian was the unofficial language of the Estonian SSR from 1944 to 1991 and taught as a compulsory second language during the Soviet era. In 1998, most first- and second-generation industrial immigrants from the former Soviet Union (mainly the Russian SFSR) did not speak Estonian.[206] However, by 2010, 64.1% of non-ethnic Estonians spoke Estonian.[207]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia#Languages

[Teemant]

And of course, the majority of Non-ethnic Estonians living permanently in Estonia, including Russian native speakers, actually do learn and know Estonian.

Russian is still spoken as a secondary language by forty- to seventy-year-old ethnic Estonians, because Russian was the unofficial language of the Estonian SSR from 1944 to 1991 and taught as a compulsory second language during the Soviet era. In 1998, most first- and second-generation industrial immigrants from the former Soviet Union (mainly the Russian SFSR) did not speak Estonian.[206] However, by 2010, 64.1% of non-ethnic Estonians spoke Estonian.[207]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia#Languages

But if 40% Russians in Estonia don't speak Estonian it is a big problem. No one has said that all Russians in Estonia don't speak Estonians. It even further proves the point that the ones who don't speak Estonian language simply don't want to do it. But the reality is that the only official language in Estonia is Estonian.
I have a friend who speaks Russian as his first language but has no problems at all speaking Estonian language. Because of that I just can't understand why some people can't learn it.

One person said that the reason why english was easier to learn was because young people use internet everyday. But living in Estonia should make learning Estonian language even easier than english. Not only you see Estonian language in the internet you are surrounded by it.

[Teemant]

I'll just add that it's mostly a social issue and a very complex one at that. As I said, Estonians feel a lot of resentment for Russia and Russian language, but many Russians, whether justifiably or not, also feel resentment for Estonia. This is an issue that took almost 50 years to develop. It will not be solved overnight and to be honest, so far in the first 24 years of being independent again, not much has been done. Estonian politicians have simply been trying to ignore the issue hoping that the Russian-speaking population would assimilate or die off and many Russians have been living in their own bubble thinking Estonia's independence is a historical anomaly and are waiting for the return of the Soviet Union so there has been little initiative for co-operation on both sides. So personally I think it will take decades to fix these issues.

If it can be fixed at all. Some tough decision must be made. For example losing two language street signs seems a reasonable idea in my opinion. It's not extreme measure or anything like but a small step towards Estonia where everyone can speak and understand Estonian language.

[Teemant]

Anyone else watched politician survival show yesterday?

For people who don't know about it: Basically it is a show where 6 well known politicians are sent to woods where they have challenges and pretty much must survive.

[Baltenstein]

Anyone else watched politician survival show yesterday?

For people who don't know about it: Basically it is a show where 6 well known politicians are sent to woods where they have challenges and pretty much must survive.

And the last survivor gets to be Estonian president?

[Teemant]

Anyone else watched politician survival show yesterday?

For people who don't know about it: Basically it is a show where 6 well known politicians are sent to woods where they have challenges and pretty much must survive.

And the last survivor gets to be Estonian president?

No but it would make the show more challenging. Some participants are scared of dark also so this makes being in forest during night more scary.

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

Anyone else watched politician survival show yesterday?

For people who don't know about it: Basically it is a show where 6 well known politicians are sent to woods where they have challenges and pretty much must survive.

I missed it yesterday but took the time to watch it today on TV3's website. I'd say I wasn't particularly impressed, although I didn't really expect much either. In the end, it's just an entertainment show and at least so far, not in any way political. I hope that later they'll have some fireside chats about politics though, especially because the group with Martin Helme (EKRE), Liina Raud (SDE) and Mihhail Korb (Center) should have quite divergent views on many issues. However those views most probably won't have any effect on their ability to survive in the forest. Having found out though that Helme is a member of the Defence League, that might give him an advantage I guess but we shall see.

Also I just watched the debate on security and defence issues on Delfi TV where Taavi Rõivas (Reform, current prime minister), Sven Mikser (SDE, current defence minister) and Juhan Parts (IRL, candidate for prime minister) took part. The Center Party had reportedly refused to participate. While I was hoping for some more specific discussion, I'd say that all three candidates had some good arguments and some not so strong. Taavi Rõivas, in my opinion, concentrated too much on speaking about the Center Party; Sven Mikser spoke very thoroughly and systematically but the obvious downside to that kind of comprehensive approach is that the main point can easily get lost; Juhan Parts did bring attention to some obvious weak links in our defence policy but since he lacks first hand experience compared to Rõivas and Mikser who deal with these issues daily, his approach was more theoretical and also came out too confrontational. Overall though, I'd say that none of them was clearly inferior but I'd give slight edge to both Rõivas and Mikser.

[Greater Istanistan]

I'd vote for Rob Ford. Anything to get him out of Canada.

PLEASE TAKE HIM NOW

[Martean]

Anyone else watched politician survival show yesterday?

For people who don't know about it: Basically it is a show where 6 well known politicians are sent to woods where they have challenges and pretty much must survive.

Do you really have reality shows about that, really?

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

Anyone else watched politician survival show yesterday?

For people who don't know about it: Basically it is a show where 6 well known politicians are sent to woods where they have challenges and pretty much must survive.

Do you really have reality shows about that, really?

Yes, yes we do!
It's also available on the TV channel's website, although it's only in Estonian and to be honest, I have no idea if it's viewable outside Estonia because sometimes TV channels have those pesky copyright and broadcast issues and what not: http://www.tv3play.ee/sisu/looduslik-valik

[Baltenstein]

And the last survivor gets to be Estonian president?

No but it would make the show more challenging. Some participants are scared of dark also so this makes being in forest during night more scary.

If the show doesn't include bare-chested Putin roaming through the forest riding a bear, I am dissapointed.

[Martean]

Do you really have reality shows about that, really?

Yes, yes we do!
It's also available on the TV channel's website, although it's only in Estonian and to be honest, I have no idea if it's viewable outside Estonia because sometimes TV channels have those pesky copyright and broadcast issues and what not: http://www.tv3play.ee/sisu/looduslik-valik

The saddest thing is that I'm sure many people will cast their vote taking into account this... thing.

[Bandwagon]

Generally, I try not to judge the livability of a place based on their political parties. Of course, I suppose you could judge a country on their political parties if the main political party of the nation actively suppresses their people, making the nation a hellhole.

Anyways, Estonia is quite a nice place, with low taxes, high levels of equality, fairly high social mobility, friendly people, and a growing economy. It's too bad the weather is shit.

What's best about Estonia is it's e-services.

For example:
You can vote in elections using internet.
Doctors prescription? Haven't seen one for a long time now. Just use ID card in pharmacy.
Banks internet services are seriously advanced. Banks are shutting down their offices because no one uses them anymore.

And many more.

I just prefer to live in a really unsustainable society where everything is mañana. My friend a while ago waited at a bus stop for two hours for a bus to come!
I just like the PIIGS societies. Everybody has no work ethic and we don't give a s**t if sometimes goes wrong.

[Martean]

What's best about Estonia is it's e-services.

For example:
You can vote in elections using internet.
Doctors prescription? Haven't seen one for a long time now. Just use ID card in pharmacy.
Banks internet services are seriously advanced. Banks are shutting down their offices because no one uses them anymore.

And many more.

I just prefer to live in a really unsustainable society where everything is mañana. My friend a while ago waited at a bus stop for two hours for a bus to come!
I just like the PIIGS societies. Everybody has no work ethic and we don't give a s**t if sometimes goes wrong.

Well, maybe you don't, but I do

[Tallinna Rahvavabariik]

A fresh survey for January just came out and rather surprisingly, the smaller parties have gained support considerably.

Reform Party still leads with 25 % support. Center Party is second with 22% support. SDE came third with 18% support and IRL fourth with 15% support. However, both Free Party (now at 8%) and EKRE (at 5%) are now over the 5% threshold which means that if they can retain that level of support they may get into the parliament. Of the smaller parties, Greens are polling at 2%, Independence Party at 1% and the Party of People's Unity at 0% (doesn't actually mean no support at all, it just rounds up to zero).
Source: http://poliitika.postimees.ee/3065729/v ... tegi-huppe (in Estonian; also contains an undersized infographic)

Well, I did expect the support for smaller parties to rise but the 8% for the Free Party seems even as an unexpectedly good result. Then again, I'm glad that it's the Free Party at 8% and not EKRE. While in general I do think that Estonia needs some new blood in politics, I'm personally not sure whether those new entrants can give us that because, as I've noted in this thread before, their leaders aren't exactly new to politics. Also, the newcomers often happen to have the kind of political views I don't exactly agree with. And if the smaller parties will gain even more support before the elections, it would mean that the current coalition government may not get the majority of seats between them in the next parliament and that I would not like at all.

However, we still have a little more than a month to go before elections so obviously things are not set in stone yet.

[Teemant]

A fresh survey for January just came out and rather surprisingly, the smaller parties have gained support considerably.

Reform Party still leads with 25 % support. Center Party is second with 22% support. SDE came third with 18% support and IRL fourth with 15% support. However, both Free Party (now at 8%) and EKRE (at 5%) are now over the 5% threshold which means if they can retain that level support they may get into the parliament. Of the smaller parties, Greens are polling at 2%, Independence Party at 1% and the Party of People's Unity at 0% (doesn't actually mean no support at all, it just rounds up to zero).
Source: http://poliitika.postimees.ee/3065729/v ... tegi-huppe (in Estonian; also contains an undersized infographic)

Well, I did expect the support for smaller parties to rise but the 8% for the Free Party seems even as an unexpectedly good result. Then again, I'm glad that it's the Free Party at 8% and not EKRE. While in general I do think that Estonia needs some new blood in politics, I'm personally not sure whether those new entrants can give us that because, as I've noted in this thread before, their leaders aren't exactly new to politics. Also, the newcomers often happen to have the kind of political views I don't exactly agree with. And if the smaller parties will gain even more support before the elections, it would mean that the current coalition government may not get the majority of seats between them in the next parliament and that I would not like at all.

However, we still have a little more than a month to go before elections so obviously things are not set in stone yet.

Well it certainly makes things more interesting if there will be 6 parties in government and the number of possible coalitions also increases. I have no idea what coalition might come when winning party won't be able to have majority coalition with 1 partner only. It raises possibilty that one of these partners will be Vabaerakond or EKRE to gain a few missing seats (to get majority in parliament). I don't think we will see minority coalition.

Luckily Reform party has 25% rating according to it and I don't think they will get less than this. Their rating will probably rise.

[Teemant]

Just 1 month until Estonian elections.

Yesterday was first TV debate but things did not got very heated as they usually do. Right now Reform party still holds a lead in popularity.