NationStates' Transgender Thread

[Edgy Opinions]

I'll just post this diagram here again, in case you missed them the last time I did so.

*puking rainbows*

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

I just wanted to kick in here and say that as a skeptic, I find the kind of interrogation and denial I see going on in here a bit distasteful.

Having a better scientific understanding of what exactly non-binary genders are would be useful, but refusing to recognize people's experiences and desires until they satisfy your standards is going too far.

[Libronyscien]

Only if you assume individuals are perfect in their perception of themselves. The way you generally experience your gender is the feeling of being either male or female but the way you experience a broken bone is usually "ow that feels broken." If the bone is broken and it doesn't hurt it's still broken if it hurts and it's not broken it's still not broken. Someone saying they have a nonbinary gender isn't saying they have a broken bone it's someone saying they have a bone that constantly vibrates to the tune of the Imperial March. I see no reason to believe that's a thing that can happen and am therefore skeptical.

... Excuse me for not understanding the connection you make between broken bones and gender.

I think it's about 2-5% of the population that's transgender and the so called nonbinary are a segment of that. The proper pronouns aren't something to stress about.

I'm sorry, but who the hell are you to decide whether or not the proper pronouns are significant? Have you ever been deliberately misgendered by someone? Do you really have the life experience to make you an expert on gender and use of pronouns? If you spent one hour of your life in the trans community, meeting trans people, I think you would realise that pronouns are a big part of our subculture. One of the first questions a trans person asks upon meeting another trans person is, "What are your preferred pronouns?" You know why that is? Because it's fucking important.

Bleerrrguhhhh. This thread is starting to piss me off.

I'm going to list what I have so far. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

Male. His he.
Female. Her she.
Androgynous. They.
Agender. None of the above. They.

As I've said before, pronouns are a personal choice made by each trans person individually, but you've got the basics down. There are more genders than that, but those ore some of the essential ones.

I'll just post these diagrams here again, in case you missed them the last time I did so.

Thanks, but I notice you said some of the essential ones, I want to understand all of the essential ones.

I want to make sure I understand all of this properly so I can properly help the cause. I don't want to put the wrong information out there.

[Grenartia]

You seem to have missed a crucial statement qualifier.

"Corresponding to the non-biologic gender"

I'm not directing this at the scientists themselves, but at those who only accept a very limited definition of trans

I was referring to the "the majority of bigender individuals experience" bit.

[Edgy Opinions]

"Corresponding to the non-biologic gender"

I'm not directing this at the scientists themselves, but at those who only accept a very limited definition of trans

I was referring to the "the majority of bigender individuals experience" bit.

I'm honestly wondering how can they reach to such numbers. I mean, there's a bias in the numbers of any kind of trans people who can pay for transition, [can] seek it and disclose their status and personal histories. That's even more true for non-binary and third gender groups.

[Grenartia]

I was referring to the "the majority of bigender individuals experience" bit.

I'm honestly wondering how can they reach to such numbers. I mean, there's a bias in the numbers of any kind of trans people who can pay for transition, [can] seek it and disclose their status and personal histories. That's even more true for non-binary and third gender groups.

They don't have to have a sample size with a majority who can pay/can seek transition to determine that a majority experience dysphoria.

[Edgy Opinions]

I'm honestly wondering how can they reach to such numbers. I mean, there's a bias in the numbers of any kind of trans people who can pay for transition, [can] seek it and disclose their status and personal histories. That's even more true for non-binary and third gender groups.

They don't have to have a sample size with a majority who can pay/can seek transition to determine that a majority experience dysphoria.

Phantom breasts/genitalia is sure a ghastly way to describe it, though.

Which is why I commented about my experience. Dysphoria can mean most particularly the desire for more subtle details but that are more visible socially and the related extreme discomfort, frustration, angst with the lack thereof than the ones mostly tied to what we understand as sexual dimorphism but that are very private.

[Libronyscien]

I'll just post this diagram here again, in case you missed them the last time I did so.

*puking rainbows*

What's wrong?

[Uawc]

Heyo. Straight male supporter of transgender rights here. Lurking and learning.

[Edgy Opinions]

*puking rainbows*

What's wrong?

Nothing, to puke rainbows is usually a good thing.

Heyo. Straight Cis male supporter of transgender rights here. Lurking and learning.

Fixed to a more important qualifier.

[Libronyscien]

What's wrong?

Nothing, to puke rainbows is usually a good thing.

Heyo. Straight Cis male supporter of transgender rights here. Lurking and learning.

Fixed to a more important qualifier.

Really? If I was puking rainbows I'd want to be taken to a doctor.

[Grenartia]

They don't have to have a sample size with a majority who can pay/can seek transition to determine that a majority experience dysphoria.

Phantom breasts/genitalia is sure a ghastly way to describe it, though.

Which is why I commented about my experience. Dysphoria can mean most particularly the desire for more subtle details but that are more visible socially and the related extreme discomfort, frustration, angst with the lack thereof than the ones mostly tied to what we understand as sexual dimorphism but that are very private.

I c wut u did ther.

[Grenartia]

So, what are everybody's thoughts on the Bruce Jenner situation?

[Edgy Opinions]

So, what are everybody's thoughts on the Bruce Jenner situation?

Well, all I see right now is media referring to her/them with he pronouns. Right now I can't really stomach this research.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

So, what are everybody's thoughts on the Bruce Jenner situation?

Well, all I see right now is media referring to her/them with he pronouns. Right now I can't really stomach this research.

Go figure, news networks are stupid and shit...

[Grenartia]

Well, all I see right now is media referring to her/them with he pronouns. Right now I can't really stomach this research.

Go figure, news networks are stupid and shit...

Well, to be entirely fair, AFAIK, Bruce hasn't actually come out (which is why I'm still referring to him by "Bruce" and masculine pronouns). Still rather transphobic how this is being sensationalized.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

So, what are everybody's thoughts on the Bruce Jenner situation?

Who?

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

So, what are everybody's thoughts on the Bruce Jenner situation?

Who?

http://www.people.com/article/bruce-jen ... ning-woman

[Nature-Spirits]

So, what are everybody's thoughts on the Bruce Jenner situation?

I just did some searching on the interwebs, and it certainly seems to me that Bruce is trans. It's nice, I think, that he (I'll continue to use he/him pronouns until he comes out publicly) doesn't seem to be making a huge deal of it himself, and is simply presenting how he wants; I don't like that the media has latched onto his transition, though. It really shouldn't be such a big deal.

One interesting thing I noted is that some "journalists" seem to have interviewed his ex-wife about it, though, and apparently she's offended by these "allegations". First of all, I'm not sure why her opinion matters so much; and second of all, if Bruce has come out to her (which he may or may not have done), I doubt she would tell the media anything anyway (if she knew, was really so offended and wanted to hurt him she would have done so as soon as he came out, so either he's never told her anything or she's simply pretending not to know anything).

I would do some more thinking on it (and I could probably write up a much longer post), but I really don't have the time or the energy at the moment, so I'll leave it at that.

[Nature-Spirits]

Just dropping in an article that appeared on my FB feed: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/01/28/ge ... ansphobia/

[Sun Wukong]

Just dropping in an article that appeared on my FB feed: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/01/28/ge ... ansphobia/

If I gave her any thought I suppose I'd be outraged.

[Grenartia]

So, what are everybody's thoughts on the Bruce Jenner situation?

I just did some searching on the interwebs, and it certainly seems to me that Bruce is trans. It's nice, I think, that he (I'll continue to use he/him pronouns until he comes out publicly) doesn't seem to be making a huge deal of it himself, and is simply presenting how he wants; I don't like that the media has latched onto his transition, though. It really shouldn't be such a big deal.

One interesting thing I noted is that some "journalists" seem to have interviewed his ex-wife about it, though, and apparently she's offended by these "allegations". First of all, I'm not sure why her opinion matters so much; and second of all, if Bruce has come out to her (which he may or may not have done), I doubt she would tell the media anything anyway (if she knew, was really so offended and wanted to hurt him she would have done so as soon as he came out, so either he's never told her anything or she's simply pretending not to know anything).

I would do some more thinking on it (and I could probably write up a much longer post), but I really don't have the time or the energy at the moment, so I'll leave it at that.

I agree. I'm still not quite sure if Bruce is or not, but I will admit the way Kim Kardashian responded on ET certainly wasn't an explicit denial, and indeed, an implied confirmation.

Just dropping in an article that appeared on my FB feed: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/01/28/ge ... ansphobia/

What a dumbfuck.

[Tsaraine]

Sadly, certain branches of the hilariously schismatic and feud-ridden beast that is organized and manifesto-publishing feminism are hideously transphobic. There's not much to be done about it except wait for them to die, and find less bigoted feminist speakers in the meantime.

In happier news, Magic: The Gathering's writers published a thing identifying one of their characters as trans, which is pretty cool. Alesha is maybe the fourth or fifth trans character I've run across in fantasy in two decades of reading (the others are Wanda from Neil Gaiman's Sandman; a secondary character I can't recall the name of from Mary Gentle's Ilario: The Lion's Eye (a novel which also features a main character who's intersex), a character from Mary Gentle's The Black Opera; a character from Dragon Soul by Jaida Jones and Laura Bennett; and I think I'm forgetting another somewhere ...).

Does anyone know any other trans characters in fantasy literature? They're obviously thin on the ground.

[Distruzio]

Sadly, certain branches of the hilariously schismatic and feud-ridden beast that is organized and manifesto-publishing feminism are hideously transphobic. There's not much to be done about it except wait for them to die, and find less bigoted feminist speakers in the meantime.

In happier news, Magic: The Gathering's writers published a thing identifying one of their characters as trans, which is pretty cool. Alesha is maybe the fourth or fifth trans character I've run across in fantasy in two decades of reading (the others are Wanda from Neil Gaiman's Sandman; a secondary character I can't recall the name of from Mary Gentle's Ilario: The Lion's Eye (a novel which also features a main character who's intersex), a character from Mary Gentle's The Black Opera; a character from Dragon Soul by Jaida Jones and Laura Bennett; and I think I'm forgetting another somewhere ...).

Does anyone know any other trans characters in fantasy literature? They're obviously thin on the ground.

Bugs Bunny was a cross-dresser in quite a few of his appearances. That's what first made me aware of the deviation from the norms as I had been taught. Made it very easy to understand when, around 4, I was first confronted with a trans-person face to face.

[Grenartia]

Sadly, certain branches of the hilariously schismatic and feud-ridden beast that is organized and manifesto-publishing feminism are hideously transphobic. There's not much to be done about it except wait for them to die, and find less bigoted feminist speakers in the meantime.

In happier news, Magic: The Gathering's writers published a thing identifying one of their characters as trans, which is pretty cool. Alesha is maybe thhttp://www.advocate.com/politics/tran ... ooks-ladye fourth or fifth trans character I've run across in fantasy in two decades of reading (the others are Wanda from Neil Gaiman's Sandman; a secondary character I can't recall the name of from Mary Gentle's Ilario: The Lion's Eye (a novel which also features a main character who's intersex), a character from Mary Gentle's The Black Opera; a character from Dragon Soul by Jaida Jones and Laura Bennett; and I think I'm forgetting another somewhere ...).

Does anyone know any other trans characters in fantasy literature? They're obviously thin on the ground.

I never played M:TG, and I'm not really much for fantasy, but I must admit, that's badass.

Whereas this is just bad:

http://www.advocate.com/politics/transg ... looks-lady