NationStates' Transgender Thread

[Spoder]

I would say I'm uncertain. I guess I'm still in the closet about my gender.

Oh look, more "this gender exists but x gender doesn't" shitposting.

[Des-Bal]

Alright.

Throughout human history and across many cultures,

There have been stories of apocalyptic floods, omnipotent gods, baby eating monsters? Sorry, I suddenly stopped reading there but it's okay because I'm sure you're not about to use such pointless shit to back up your argument.

In modern Western society, non-binary genders have only recently become socially acceptable enough for people to express that they experience them, and recently the American Psychological Association has recognised us (^{1, 2}). Since researchers cannot even agree on what causes binary transgenderness, they have yet to discover what causes people to have non-binary genders, but there have been some studies done that offer some explanations (^{1, 2}).

The APA has been very political in it's handling of gender. As your source highlights the switch to "Gender Dysphoria" as a diagnosis was motivated by the fact that being classed as mentally ill is stigmatizing which is great because it essentially formalizes that stigmatization. I'm not going to accept something just because they say it, I want to see what they based that decision on and come to my own conclusion.

You're actual evidence which I have finally extracted seems interesting but decidedly lacking. It's opening the door for research and should that research support the legitimacy of AGI I'll believe it.

Now, let's go through a little exercise. I don't know your gender, so for my purposes I'm going to assume that you are a cis male. Now, why don't you explain what being male means?

As the individual experiences it it comes down to viewing oneself as male.

Does it mean acting masculine, doing masculine things, speaking in a masculine manner, dressing in a masculine way?

No it means the other thing, the thing I just said.

Well, no, that all has to do with gender expression, and there are many women who do all that.

That's why I didn't say it.

Does it mean having XY chromosomes or having a penis?

It's like you aren't listening.

No, you've already admitted that you accept that people can have a different binary gender than that which they were assigned at birth

Wait a minute did you write all of this before I answered?

Does it mean being sexually attracted to females? No, there are many men who are attracted to men, or to all genders, or to no gender at all.

How dare you?

What does it mean, then?

I told you.

Explain it.

Did you seriously just get impatient waiting for an answer to a question you hadn't asked?

Being all scientific would be helpful, too, since you apparently love scientific proof so much.

The brains perception of itself as male if that's better.

Oh? You can't?

I can, it was very easy.

Well, then how do you expect us to explain what being non-binary means to us?

See, this is what happens when you plot out someones response before you ask them a question.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

My gender identity is male. Though I wonder sometimes what it would be like to be a woman. I would report on my experiences to the world.

I'm not arguing you're some kind of self aware robot I'm telling you I don't believe you have an accurate picture of who you are. If you said "I have laser beam eyes" and I said "prove it" I'm not arguing that you don't exist. I view Transexualism as completely valid and supported by evidence the idea that gender should go beyond male/female is not.

There's no evidence to support any others.

If you believe you're right demonstrate it.

Alright.

Throughout human history and across many cultures, there have been accounts of more than two genders (^{1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10}). These "third genders" have been a standard part of these cultures for decades, centuries, or in some cases millennia. Hence, the historical cross-cultural precedent for non-binary genders.

In modern Western society, non-binary genders have only recently become socially acceptable enough for people to express that they experience them, and recently the American Psychological Association has recognised us (^{1, 2}). Since researchers cannot even agree on what causes binary transgenderness, they have yet to discover what causes people to have non-binary genders, but there have been some studies done that offer some explanations (^{1, 2}).


Now, let's go through a little exercise. I don't know your gender, so for my purposes I'm going to assume that you are a cis male. Now, why don't you explain what being male means?

Does it mean acting masculine, doing masculine things, speaking in a masculine manner, dressing in a masculine way? Well, no, that all has to do with gender expression, and there are many women who do all that. Does it mean having XY chromosomes or having a penis? No, you've already admitted that you accept that people can have a different binary gender than that which they were assigned at birth. Does it mean being sexually attracted to females? No, there are many men who are attracted to men, or to all genders, or to no gender at all.

What does it mean, then? Explain it. Being all scientific would be helpful, too, since you apparently love scientific proof so much.

Oh? You can't?

Well, then how do you expect us to explain what being non-binary means to us?

I heard it compared to pain in that it is unambiguously felt but ineffable and impossible to show. This wonderful thing being gender identity, that is.

[Grenartia]

Amen.

Although, I will say that there is at least one study dealing with non-binary individuals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364652

I was actually just looking at that same study. I have to say, it's of particular interest to me. It'd be nice to be able to understand why my gender is the way it is.

All my love goes out to you, Nat-Spi.

Love you too.

It is nice to have some sort of scientific validation that yes, what I'm feeling is real, and I'm not the only person going through it.

Amen.

Although, I will say that there is at least one study dealing with non-binary individuals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364652

PHANTOM BREASTS sounds like an amazing name for a band.

Actually, it rather does.

[Nature-Spirits]

Okay, Des-Bal, it seems we've discovered how you conceptualise being male:

As the individual experiences it it comes down to viewing oneself as male.

or

The brains [sic] perception of itself as male

So how, then, would it be different for anyone of any other gender? Viewing yourself as male obviously means that you simultaneously view yourself as "not female". So one can extrapolate, then, that if one views themself as "not male" and "not female", then they must view themself as -- and therefore be -- non-binary.

There. Non-binary genders proven, using your own logic.

[Edgy Opinions]

"In addition, similar to transsexual individuals, the majority of bigender individuals experience phantom breasts or genitalia corresponding to the non-biologic gender when they are in a trans-gender state."

Are they seriously going for this fucking language and these fucking standards?

To be honest, I always look a lot like a girl - an attractive, slim girl - in both my thoughts about myself, my actions in the future, and my dreams, and I too imagine past me as far cuter than what it actually was, but I've never felt bodily dysphoria about anything unrelated to my face or my hair. Will people now say that there are faces inherently male and those inherently female now, and that my only chance at being a tru trans is desiring complex, expensive, endless, painful plastic surgeries to alter my bone structure?

[Grenartia]

"In addition, similar to transsexual individuals, the majority of bigender individuals experience phantom breasts or genitalia corresponding to the non-biologic gender when they are in a trans-gender state."

Are they seriously going for this fucking language and these fucking standards?

To be honest, I always look a lot like a girl - an attractive, slim girl - in both my thoughts about myself, my actions in the future, and my dreams, and I too imagine past me as far cuter than what it actually was, but I've never felt bodily dysphoria about anything unrelated to my face or my hair. Will people now say that there are faces inherently male and those inherently female now, and that my only chance at being a tru trans is desiring complex, expensive, endless, painful plastic surgeries to alter my bone structure?

You seem to have missed a crucial statement qualifier.

[Edgy Opinions]

"In addition, similar to transsexual individuals, the majority of bigender individuals experience phantom breasts or genitalia corresponding to the non-biologic gender when they are in a trans-gender state."

Are they seriously going for this fucking language and these fucking standards?

To be honest, I always look a lot like a girl - an attractive, slim girl - in both my thoughts about myself, my actions in the future, and my dreams, and I too imagine past me as far cuter than what it actually was, but I've never felt bodily dysphoria about anything unrelated to my face or my hair. Will people now say that there are faces inherently male and those inherently female now, and that my only chance at being a tru trans is desiring complex, expensive, endless, painful plastic surgeries to alter my bone structure?

You seem to have missed a crucial statement qualifier.

"Corresponding to the non-biologic gender"

I'm not directing this at the scientists themselves, but at those who only accept a very limited definition of trans

[Des-Bal]

So how, then, would it be different for anyone of any other gender? Viewing yourself as male obviously means that you simultaneously view yourself as "not female". So one can extrapolate, then, that if one views themself as "not male" and "not female", then they must view themself as -- and therefore be -- non-binary.

There. Non-binary genders proven, using your own logic.

Only if you assume individuals are perfect in their perception of themselves. The way you generally experience your gender is the feeling of being either male or female but the way you experience a broken bone is usually "ow that feels broken." If the bone is broken and it doesn't hurt it's still broken if it hurts and it's not broken it's still not broken. Someone saying they have a nonbinary gender isn't saying they have a broken bone it's someone saying they have a bone that constantly vibrates to the tune of the Imperial March. I see no reason to believe that's a thing that can happen and am therefore skeptical.

[Udinia]

So how, then, would it be different for anyone of any other gender? Viewing yourself as male obviously means that you simultaneously view yourself as "not female". So one can extrapolate, then, that if one views themself as "not male" and "not female", then they must view themself as -- and therefore be -- non-binary.

There. Non-binary genders proven, using your own logic.

Only if you assume individuals are perfect in their perception of themselves. The way you generally experience your gender is the feeling of being either male or female but the way you experience a broken bone is usually "ow that feels broken." If the bone is broken and it doesn't hurt it's still broken if it hurts and it's not broken it's still not broken. Someone saying they have a nonbinary gender isn't saying they have a broken bone it's someone saying they have a bone that constantly vibrates to the tune of the Imperial March. I see no reason to believe that's a thing that can happen and am therefore skeptical.

You're thinking in conventional 1s and 0s, someone like myself that identifies as androgynous is more like a quantum bit 1 and 0 simultaneously. In other words, it isn't as simple as one or the other it is at times both or neither.

[Des-Bal]

You're thinking in conventional 1s and 0s, someone like myself that identifies as androgynous is more like a quantum bit 1 and 0 simultaneously. In other words, it isn't as simple as one or the other it is at times both or neither.

I disagree.

[Udinia]

You're thinking in conventional 1s and 0s, someone like myself that identifies as androgynous is more like a quantum bit 1 and 0 simultaneously. In other words, it isn't as simple as one or the other it is at times both or neither.

I disagree.

I can accept that, I'm not one to make a big fuss over gender.

[Libronyscien]

Bleerrrguhhhh. This thread is starting to piss me off.

I'm going to list what I have so far. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

Male. His he.
Female. Her she.
Androgynous. They.
Agender. None of the above. They.

[Farnhamia]

Bleerrrguhhhh. This thread is starting to piss me off.

I'm going to list what I have so far. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

Male. His he.
Female. Her she.
Androgynous. They.
Agender. None of the above. They.

You're forgetting that you're in NSG, where every day is an endless round of the same thing, over and over.

[Xomic]

Throughout human history and across many cultures, there have been accounts of more than two genders (^{1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10}). These "third genders" have been a standard part of these cultures for decades, centuries, or in some cases millennia. Hence, the historical cross-cultural precedent for non-binary genders.

The whole "two-spirit" 'gender' is a good example of why I have trouble with these so-called non-binary genders. Consider the opening paragraphs of the article you quote

Third and fourth gender roles historically embodied by two-spirit people include performing work and wearing clothing associated with both men and women. Not all tribes have rigid gender roles. Among those that do, some tribes consider there to be at least four genders:

• masculine men
• feminine men
• masculine women
• feminine women.

The gender, in essences appears to boil down to women hunting, or men weaving baskets, which is fundamentally absurd. Are you suggesting, for example, that a women in video game development, a 'traditional' job for men in our society is somehow not a women due to her performing work that's associated with men, but wearing a dress? Or how about if she plays football and wears jeans or whatever? Is she a ''masculine woman' at this point?

The same goes for men; does liking My little Pony suddenly make them not-men? How about wearing something like a skirt, or being a nurse?

To put it another way, we could rewrite the list of four 'genders' as 'men', 'sissies', 'tomboys' and 'women'. Yet it's frankly insulting to suggest that doing things outside of your 'gender' or 'gender role' makes you not a man, or not a woman or indicates you're some other sort of 'gender'.

[Libronyscien]

Bleerrrguhhhh. This thread is starting to piss me off.

I'm going to list what I have so far. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

Male. His he.
Female. Her she.
Androgynous. They.
Agender. None of the above. They.

You're forgetting that you're in NSG, where every day is an endless round of the same thing, over and over.

I know where I am. I'm just being stupid to think it will ever change.

[Des-Bal]

Bleerrrguhhhh. This thread is starting to piss me off.

I'm going to list what I have so far. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

Male. His he.
Female. Her she.
Androgynous. They.
Agender. None of the above. They.

I think it's about 2-5% of the population that's transgender and the so called nonbinary are a segment of that. The proper pronouns aren't something to stress about.

[Bottle]

I have a biological sex (female). I do not have a "gender identity," just a personality which my culture strives to force into either a blue box or a pink one. The fact that my biological sex does not correspond with the gender-box my culture tries to shove me into just means that the boxes are bogus.

[Olivaero]

Bleerrrguhhhh. This thread is starting to piss me off.

I'm going to list what I have so far. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

Male. His he.
Female. Her she.
Androgynous. They.
Agender. None of the above. They.

You could really just refer to someone as they if you have trouble identifying the proper pronoun from a glance, if some one flips their shit at you for not calling them their preferred pronoun without them informing you of what it is first they are the ones at fault for being unreasonable assholes. If it's over the internet a glance at their sig will probably tell you what it is and defaulting to they is an even better idea there if they don't have it listed.

[Libronyscien]

Bleerrrguhhhh. This thread is starting to piss me off.

I'm going to list what I have so far. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

Male. His he.
Female. Her she.
Androgynous. They.
Agender. None of the above. They.

You could really just refer to someone as they if you have trouble identifying the proper pronoun from a glance, if some one flips their shit at you for not calling them their preferred pronoun without them informing you of what it is first they are the ones at fault for being unreasonable assholes. If it's over the internet a glance at their sig will probably tell you what it is and defaulting to they is an even better idea there if they don't have it listed.

I am not being clear. I am not doing this so I'll use the right pronouns. I am doing it so that I can understand this stuff. I am a cis het guy. I don't "have" to know this stuff. I could go the rest of my life ignoring the problems of the LGBT+ community, blissfully unaware of what is going on. I don't want to do that. I want/need to help the LGBT+ community. If I didn't try to make a difference I'd... I don't even know. I just want to be respectful to my fellow beings.¹

1. Until they prove to me that they don't deserve my respect.

[Edgy Opinions]

I have a biological sex (female). I do not have a "gender identity," just a personality which my culture strives to force into either a blue box or a pink one. The fact that my biological sex does not correspond with the gender-box my culture tries to shove me into just means that the boxes are bogus.

Gender identity is far more than bogus boxes.

Think of hydrangeas that have different flower colors according to the soil's pH. One's gender identity might be comparable to that~
And we have to keep the politics that surround these colors strong because once one feels comfortable dismissing it, people start to explain things through a lens of biological determinism, and that is no advancement.

[Bottle]

I have a biological sex (female). I do not have a "gender identity," just a personality which my culture strives to force into either a blue box or a pink one. The fact that my biological sex does not correspond with the gender-box my culture tries to shove me into just means that the boxes are bogus.

Gender identity is far more than bogus boxes.

Think of hydrangeas that have different flower colors according to the soil's pH. One's gender identity might be comparable to that~
And we have to keep the politics that surround these colors strong because once one feels comfortable dismissing it, people start to explain things through a lens of biological determinism, and that is no advancement.

I don't believe in biological determinism or gender essentialism. That's why I believe the gender boxes are bogus.

[Nature-Spirits]

So how, then, would it be different for anyone of any other gender? Viewing yourself as male obviously means that you simultaneously view yourself as "not female". So one can extrapolate, then, that if one views themself as "not male" and "not female", then they must view themself as -- and therefore be -- non-binary.

There. Non-binary genders proven, using your own logic.

Only if you assume individuals are perfect in their perception of themselves. The way you generally experience your gender is the feeling of being either male or female but the way you experience a broken bone is usually "ow that feels broken." If the bone is broken and it doesn't hurt it's still broken if it hurts and it's not broken it's still not broken. Someone saying they have a nonbinary gender isn't saying they have a broken bone it's someone saying they have a bone that constantly vibrates to the tune of the Imperial March. I see no reason to believe that's a thing that can happen and am therefore skeptical.

... Excuse me for not understanding the connection you make between broken bones and gender.

Bleerrrguhhhh. This thread is starting to piss me off.

I'm going to list what I have so far. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

Male. His he.
Female. Her she.
Androgynous. They.
Agender. None of the above. They.

I think it's about 2-5% of the population that's transgender and the so called nonbinary are a segment of that. The proper pronouns aren't something to stress about.

I'm sorry, but who the hell are you to decide whether or not the proper pronouns are significant? Have you ever been deliberately misgendered by someone? Do you really have the life experience to make you an expert on gender and use of pronouns? If you spent one hour of your life in the trans community, meeting trans people, I think you would realise that pronouns are a big part of our subculture. One of the first questions a trans person asks upon meeting another trans person is, "What are your preferred pronouns?" You know why that is? Because it's fucking important.

Bleerrrguhhhh. This thread is starting to piss me off.

I'm going to list what I have so far. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgetting something.

Male. His he.
Female. Her she.
Androgynous. They.
Agender. None of the above. They.

As I've said before, pronouns are a personal choice made by each trans person individually, but you've got the basics down. There are more genders than that, but those ore some of the essential ones.

I'll just post these diagrams here again, in case you missed them the last time I did so.

[Shaggai]

I have a biological sex (female). I do not have a "gender identity," just a personality which my culture strives to force into either a blue box or a pink one. The fact that my biological sex does not correspond with the gender-box my culture tries to shove me into just means that the boxes are bogus.

Some people feel strongly that they are one gender or another. Perhaps you're agender and are assuming you're typical?

(If you're only talking about yourself and not others, ignore the above. Read the linked essay though, because it's interesting.)

[Edgy Opinions]

I don't believe in biological determinism or gender essentialism. That's why I believe the gender boxes are bogus.

As personality traits? Yes. As meaningful generalizations to all people who identify with it? Yes. As universal cultural/social/rearing up experiences? Yes.

As stuff that colors the way you see yourself before other humans? Most certainly not.