NationStates' Transgender Thread

[Edgy Opinions]

DI is talking about people who only recognize bodily dysphoria and "scientifically explainable-sounding" genders.

Those assholes that only believe things that seem remotely possible given the way that the world works.

The average person uses dyadic cis science to tag X-Y system chromosomes and gonadal hormones to explain cultural role differences between genders, I'm not going to beg for the recognition of such scientifically illiterate mass, even more so when the gender discussion has nothing to do with biological determinism.

[Xomic]

Speaking of identical twins, the dance between genetics and intra-uterine hormonal bath is unique for about every person, so you can't assert things for how humans work "sex"-wise due to this inherent diversity. There is no objective brain sex because "brain sex" possibilities are infinite, people are just working with averages that would erase many without even researching deeply about what leads to the deviations from the norm.

If your identity is being erased by averages, it may be a good indication that what you're describing isn't really separate; it's basically just noise.

Except for the studies that suggest--surprise surprise--that transwomen and transmen have brain structures that are similar to the sex they say they are, and not the one the rest of their body is. Even in pre-HRT trans people.

Said studies never dealt with non-binary people whatsoever, surprise surprise.

Then go out and do the studies necessary to provide the evidence for the conclusions you're holding to be true. If, indeed, you can find that evidence.

Not to mention that sex meaning social position and thus social grouping and identity itself is a social construct, so you're scientific only as a response to socialization in one such society. There's no proof there would still be trans men and trans women in a world without men and women as meaningful concepts.

Sex is not socially constructed, but a real, concrete thing.

[Xomic]

I'm not questioning you as an individual and I'm not going to prove anything about myself as an individual but if you're asking for evidence that the male and female genders exist I suppose I'll just go with dimorphism in the brain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21094885

Notice how they say "hypothalamus".

Hypothalamus is part of the "reptilian" part of our brains. I would know since it regulates very basal drives like hunger, thirst, and sensations of cold, warmth and pain.

It is very, very distant to what regulates our psyche. Your "evidence" is tentative at best, and indeed it has a bias in that so far research points out to non-binary genders and/or the neurological wiring of intersex people not being at all considered.

The 'reptilian' part of the brain also governs emotions and memory, and while the neocortex and assorted other parts of the brain may have evolved later, that hardly means they're less important or unimportant to ourselves. This isn't Pokemon, the Neocortex isn't the Nidoking to to reptilian brain's nidorino or somthing.

[Nature-Spirits]

I honestly don't care at this point whether or not you believe me. As long as you don't tell me I'm fake or weird or confused, we will have few problems.

Then we're going to have a problem because I don't believe you. I don't believe the thing you say you are is a thing. This necessarily means that you are some combination of confused fake or lying. I believe that and if it comes up I'm going to say it.

I don't understand why you seem incapable of accepting that non-binary genders are valid. I'm not asking to be recognised as an anime character or a cake or an emoji. I experience real genders -- including male, female, agender, and some form of androgyne -- and I just happen to fluctuate between them now and again. Why is that so hard to conceptualise? When I am female, I am a motherfucking girl, and I have fucking breakdowns in the street because I don't feel beautiful enough, and I act like a girl, because that's who I am at that moment. When I am male, I feel confident in my body and act like a guy, because that's who I am at that moment and people accept that. When I am agender, I couldn't give any less fucks about my gender, because I have none at that moment. And then there are the times when I'm somewhere between all of those, and that's just who I am at that moment.

And if you can't accept that, then could you please at least not be a dick about it, because that's the kind of thing that triggers dysphoria, and dysphoria is not a fun thing.

[Des-Bal]

I don't understand why you seem incapable of accepting that non-binary genders are valid.

Because you have provided no evidence that they are. I don't understand why you don't understand this because I've restated it in almost every post.

I'm not asking to be recognised as an anim character or a cake or an emoji. I experience real genders -- including male, female, agender, and some form of androgyne -- and I just happen to fluctuate between them now and again. Why is that so hard to conceptualise? When I am female, I am a motherfucking girl, and I have fucking breakdowns in the street because I don't feel beautiful enough, and I act like a girl, because that's who I am at that moment. When I am male, I feel confident in my body and act like a guy, because that's who I am at that moment and people accept that. When I am agender, I couldn't give any less fucks about my gender, because I have none at that moment. And then there are the times when I'm somewhere between all of those, and that's just who I am at that moment.

And if you can't accept that, then could you please at least not be a dick about it, because that's the kind of thing that triggers dysphoria, and dysphoria is not a fun thing.

"Believe me or I'll feel bad." Again, not evidence. What I'm doing right now is saying "I disagree with you." If you interpret that as dickishness I'm not sure the whole outside world thing is good for you. Maybe live in a bubble or a cave or a cult or somewhere else where nobody disagrees with you. I build my beliefs around what seems to be the truth not what's going to be the best for your emotional wellbeing.

[Des-Bal]

The average person uses dyadic cis science to tag X-Y system chromosomes and gonadal hormones to explain cultural role differences between genders, I'm not going to beg for the recognition of such scientifically illiterate mass, even more so when the gender discussion has nothing to do with biological determinism.

If you don't want to look for recognition fine but in that case you have no right to expect it.

[Shaggai]

I don't understand why you seem incapable of accepting that non-binary genders are valid.

Because you have provided no evidence that they are. I don't understand why you don't understand this because I've restated it in almost every post.

I'm not asking to be recognised as an anim character or a cake or an emoji. I experience real genders -- including male, female, agender, and some form of androgyne -- and I just happen to fluctuate between them now and again. Why is that so hard to conceptualise? When I am female, I am a motherfucking girl, and I have fucking breakdowns in the street because I don't feel beautiful enough, and I act like a girl, because that's who I am at that moment. When I am male, I feel confident in my body and act like a guy, because that's who I am at that moment and people accept that. When I am agender, I couldn't give any less fucks about my gender, because I have none at that moment. And then there are the times when I'm somewhere between all of those, and that's just who I am at that moment.

And if you can't accept that, then could you please at least not be a dick about it, because that's the kind of thing that triggers dysphoria, and dysphoria is not a fun thing.

"Believe me or I'll feel bad." Again, not evidence. What I'm doing right now is saying "I disagree with you." If you interpret that as dickishness I'm not sure the whole outside world thing is good for you. Maybe live in a bubble or a cave or a cult or somewhere else where nobody disagrees with you. I build my beliefs around what seems to be the truth not what's going to be the best for your emotional wellbeing.

Given that a lot of gender is literally "I feel bad if people consider me to be x, and I feel good if people consider me to be y", I think that people's feelings are absolutely valid evidence.

[Des-Bal]

Given that a lot of gender is literally "I feel bad if people consider me to be x, and I feel good if people consider me to be y", I think that people's feelings are absolutely valid evidence.

You're welcome to think that.

[Nature-Spirits]

I don't understand why you seem incapable of accepting that non-binary genders are valid.

Because you have provided no evidence that they are. I don't understand why you don't understand this because I've restated it in almost every post.

Alright, I'll do my best to prove my existence to you. If you still can't accept that I and half of the people here are real after that, then I don't know how to help you. Before I go off on a tirade, though, do I just have to prove to you that non-binary genders exist, or that gender in general is separate from sex? Because whichever it is, your response will shape my argument.

And while I'm at it, I'd still like you to provide evidence that there are only two discrete genders.

I'm not asking to be recognised as an anim character or a cake or an emoji. I experience real genders -- including male, female, agender, and some form of androgyne -- and I just happen to fluctuate between them now and again. Why is that so hard to conceptualise? When I am female, I am a motherfucking girl, and I have fucking breakdowns in the street because I don't feel beautiful enough, and I act like a girl, because that's who I am at that moment. When I am male, I feel confident in my body and act like a guy, because that's who I am at that moment and people accept that. When I am agender, I couldn't give any less fucks about my gender, because I have none at that moment. And then there are the times when I'm somewhere between all of those, and that's just who I am at that moment.

And if you can't accept that, then could you please at least not be a dick about it, because that's the kind of thing that triggers dysphoria, and dysphoria is not a fun thing.

"Believe me or I'll feel bad." Again, not evidence. What I'm doing right now is saying "I disagree with you." If you interpret that as dickishness I'm not sure the whole outside world thing is good for you. Maybe live in a bubble or a cave or a cult or somewhere else where nobody disagrees with you. I build my beliefs around what seems to be the truth not what's going to be the best for your emotional wellbeing.

I'll have you know that I'm not as emotionally fragile as you make me out to be. I've dealt with bullying and harassment for most of my life, so I know how to deal with people who insult me. Nevertheless, the fact is that you are invalidating my identity, and I can't stand for that.

[Shaggai]

Given that a lot of gender is literally "I feel bad if people consider me to be x, and I feel good if people consider me to be y", I think that people's feelings are absolutely valid evidence.

You're welcome to think that.

What do you think gender is?

[Des-Bal]

Alright, I'll do my best to prove my existence to you. If you still can't accept that I and half of the people here are real after that, then I don't know how to help you. Before I go off on a tirade, though, do I just have to prove to you that non-binary genders exist, or that gender in general is separate from sex? Because whichever it is, your response will shape my argument.

And while I'm at it, I'd still like you to provide evidence that there are only two discrete genders.


I'll have you know that I'm not as emotionally fragile as you make me out to be. I've dealt with bullying and harassment for most of my life, so I know how to deal with people who insult me. Nevertheless, the fact is that you are invalidating my identity, and I can't stand for that.

I'm not arguing you're some kind of self aware robot I'm telling you I don't believe you have an accurate picture of who you are. If you said "I have laser beam eyes" and I said "prove it" I'm not arguing that you don't exist. I view Transexualism as completely valid and supported by evidence the idea that gender should go beyond male/female is not.

There's no evidence to support any others.

If you believe you're right demonstrate it.

[Des-Bal]

What do you think gender is?

I think it's best understood as the way the brain perceives the sex of the body.

[Shaggai]

What do you think gender is?

I think it's best understood as the way the brain perceives the sex of the body.

Then, in your opinion, why should any trans people be referred to with their preferred pronouns?

[Des-Bal]

Then, in your opinion, why should any trans people be referred to with their preferred pronouns?

Because they have the gender associated with those pronouns.

[Shaggai]

Then, in your opinion, why should any trans people be referred to with their preferred pronouns?

Because they have the gender associated with those pronouns.

So, hypothetically, this has nothing to do with what said people think about their pronouns? What about gender-neutral pronouns?

[Des-Bal]

So, hypothetically, this has nothing to do with what said people think about their pronouns? What about gender-neutral pronouns?

Not sure what you mean.

As for gender neutral pronouns I find them awkward.

[Shaggai]

So, hypothetically, this has nothing to do with what said people think about their pronouns? What about gender-neutral pronouns?

Not sure what you mean.

As for gender neutral pronouns I find them awkward.

Basically, if someone prefers, say, male pronouns, you won't use them unless you're sure that their gender is male?

[Des-Bal]

Basically, if someone prefers, say, male pronouns, you won't use them unless you're sure that their gender is male?

If I believe their gender is male.

[Grenartia]

What I meant to say is that if someone is perfectly happy identifying as the gender they were assigned at birth, but then they also want to identify with, say, music for fun -- that's not okay. That's not being trans. That's just being stupid.

Honestly, I kind of feel the same way. I don't really like arguing with people over which genders are real and which aren't, or whether dysphoria is necessary to being trans. I don't want to be exclusive -- I'd rather be inclusive.

Where my issue lies is when people (not anyone here; I'm thinking of mogai) start appropriating our community and trivialising our struggles. That's not okay with me.

That's an acceptable worry, but I'm fairly sure tucutes and other anti-truscum aren't thinking of musicagender-cis male or musicagender-cis female bigenders/demiboys/demigirls when we talk about gender being infinite and every kind of gender being equally possible.

When I read about those things, I generally imagine a mostly agender or mostly neutrois person having these random specifiers as an additional quality, much like I'm neutrois but also have "neogender" characteristics (actually I'm pretty sure humans like me could have always existed, but only got a name and a community to talk about themselves recently), and letting them not deeply explained to not let people fear the identities and desire to quibble it to apply to themselves with plenty of space for that, also thinking of potential androgyne, polygender and genderfluid people who would identify with that.

Actually, there WAS this Facebook post in a non-binary group I was active poster of that asked people to post songs they relate to specific parts of their gender, and I'm pretty sure those people weren't even very aware of the whole truscum/tucute controversy in tumblr.

In fact, given the "anti-cis sentiment" of these environments, I doubt people who are closer to cis on the spectrum would show up or even attempt to help with anything. They hold primacy to oppressed lived experience to have any opinion in intra-community debate, and people dismiss nounself otherkin as having authority over that: Furry even linked to a page that held cis people as having no authority over the whole debate issue or space for its use and that even if trans, otherkin talking shit about pronouns for both gender and kintype would be pieces of shit who appropriate stuff from oppressed groups.

I mean, look at the FAQ of mogai-archives itself: http://mogai-archive.tumblr.com/faq as much as they might be wrongful, they don't take themselves as a cis joke.

I never really thought the people who used those mile-and-a-half long labels weren't trans (even though there does seem to be some overlap between them and the "musicgender/frostgender" types), just that they're using overly long labels.

Also, of course mogai-archives seems to take itself seriously. That's like saying Stephen Colbert takes his conservative act seriously on his show.

[Grenartia]

.

True, but "them" doesn't always work, depending on the context.

Yeah, especially since it leads to the confusion of singular and plural at some times.

Any more than the word "you" has?

[Grenartia]

Speaking of identical twins, the dance between genetics and intra-uterine hormonal bath is unique for about every person, so you can't assert things for how humans work "sex"-wise due to this inherent diversity. There is no objective brain sex because "brain sex" possibilities are infinite, people are just working with averages that would erase many without even researching deeply about what leads to the deviations from the norm.

If your identity is being erased by averages, it may be a good indication that what you're describing isn't really separate; it's basically just noise.

Said studies never dealt with non-binary people whatsoever, surprise surprise.

Then go out and do the studies necessary to provide the evidence for the conclusions you're holding to be true. If, indeed, you can find that evidence.

Not to mention that sex meaning social position and thus social grouping and identity itself is a social construct, so you're scientific only as a response to socialization in one such society. There's no proof there would still be trans men and trans women in a world without men and women as meaningful concepts.

Sex is not socially constructed, but a real, concrete thing.

Amen.

Although, I will say that there is at least one study dealing with non-binary individuals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364652

[Grenartia]

Then we're going to have a problem because I don't believe you. I don't believe the thing you say you are is a thing. This necessarily means that you are some combination of confused fake or lying. I believe that and if it comes up I'm going to say it.

I don't understand why you seem incapable of accepting that non-binary genders are valid. I'm not asking to be recognised as an anime character or a cake or an emoji. I experience real genders -- including male, female, agender, and some form of androgyne -- and I just happen to fluctuate between them now and again. Why is that so hard to conceptualise? When I am female, I am a motherfucking girl, and I have fucking breakdowns in the street because I don't feel beautiful enough, and I act like a girl, because that's who I am at that moment. When I am male, I feel confident in my body and act like a guy, because that's who I am at that moment and people accept that. When I am agender, I couldn't give any less fucks about my gender, because I have none at that moment. And then there are the times when I'm somewhere between all of those, and that's just who I am at that moment.

And if you can't accept that, then could you please at least not be a dick about it, because that's the kind of thing that triggers dysphoria, and dysphoria is not a fun thing.

All my love goes out to you, Nat-Spi.

[Nature-Spirits]

If your identity is being erased by averages, it may be a good indication that what you're describing isn't really separate; it's basically just noise.





Then go out and do the studies necessary to provide the evidence for the conclusions you're holding to be true. If, indeed, you can find that evidence.


Sex is not socially constructed, but a real, concrete thing.

Amen.

Although, I will say that there is at least one study dealing with non-binary individuals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364652

I was actually just looking at that same study. I have to say, it's of particular interest to me. It'd be nice to be able to understand why my gender is the way it is.

I don't understand why you seem incapable of accepting that non-binary genders are valid. I'm not asking to be recognised as an anime character or a cake or an emoji. I experience real genders -- including male, female, agender, and some form of androgyne -- and I just happen to fluctuate between them now and again. Why is that so hard to conceptualise? When I am female, I am a motherfucking girl, and I have fucking breakdowns in the street because I don't feel beautiful enough, and I act like a girl, because that's who I am at that moment. When I am male, I feel confident in my body and act like a guy, because that's who I am at that moment and people accept that. When I am agender, I couldn't give any less fucks about my gender, because I have none at that moment. And then there are the times when I'm somewhere between all of those, and that's just who I am at that moment.

And if you can't accept that, then could you please at least not be a dick about it, because that's the kind of thing that triggers dysphoria, and dysphoria is not a fun thing.

All my love goes out to you, Nat-Spi.

Love you too.

[North Pacific Economic Commonwealth]

Amen.

Although, I will say that there is at least one study dealing with non-binary individuals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364652

PHANTOM BREASTS sounds like an amazing name for a band.

[Nature-Spirits]

Alright, I'll do my best to prove my existence to you. If you still can't accept that I and half of the people here are real after that, then I don't know how to help you. Before I go off on a tirade, though, do I just have to prove to you that non-binary genders exist, or that gender in general is separate from sex? Because whichever it is, your response will shape my argument.

And while I'm at it, I'd still like you to provide evidence that there are only two discrete genders.


I'll have you know that I'm not as emotionally fragile as you make me out to be. I've dealt with bullying and harassment for most of my life, so I know how to deal with people who insult me. Nevertheless, the fact is that you are invalidating my identity, and I can't stand for that.

I'm not arguing you're some kind of self aware robot I'm telling you I don't believe you have an accurate picture of who you are. If you said "I have laser beam eyes" and I said "prove it" I'm not arguing that you don't exist. I view Transexualism as completely valid and supported by evidence the idea that gender should go beyond male/female is not.

There's no evidence to support any others.

If you believe you're right demonstrate it.

Alright.

Throughout human history and across many cultures, there have been accounts of more than two genders (^{1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10}). These "third genders" have been a standard part of these cultures for decades, centuries, or in some cases millennia. Hence, the historical cross-cultural precedent for non-binary genders.

In modern Western society, non-binary genders have only recently become socially acceptable enough for people to express that they experience them, and recently the American Psychological Association has recognised us (^{1, 2}). Since researchers cannot even agree on what causes binary transgenderness, they have yet to discover what causes people to have non-binary genders, but there have been some studies done that offer some explanations (^{1, 2}).


Now, let's go through a little exercise. I don't know your gender, so for my purposes I'm going to assume that you are a cis male. Now, why don't you explain what being male means?

Does it mean acting masculine, doing masculine things, speaking in a masculine manner, dressing in a masculine way? Well, no, that all has to do with gender expression, and there are many women who do all that. Does it mean having XY chromosomes or having a penis? No, you've already admitted that you accept that people can have a different binary gender than that which they were assigned at birth. Does it mean being sexually attracted to females? No, there are many men who are attracted to men, or to all genders, or to no gender at all.

What does it mean, then? Explain it. Being all scientific would be helpful, too, since you apparently love scientific proof so much.

Oh? You can't?

Well, then how do you expect us to explain what being non-binary means to us?