NationStates' Transgender Thread

[Edgy Opinions]

I'm pretty tomboyish myself [boots>high heels] - I've never been big on wearing dresses or tons of make-up, growing up I enjoyed playing with GI-Joe and War as much as I did with barbies. I don't suppose you could find someone who'd dress up with you

As far as the clothing, is it me, or is the male wardrobe rather lacking? Female clothing is just insane.

I cared the most about Lego and videogames. I was a spoiled kid, so I actually had public square toys at hand in my own house.

And I agree with you. Skirts need to become gender-neutral.

[Geanna]

Fascinating. That Genderbread diagram . . . I've never seen everything laid out like that before. The confusion I've had over recent years feels more validated now. The idea that having a "woman" gender identity could be compatible with being a masculine, male heterosexual always sounded ludicrous. And it still sounds pretty ludicrous. It's going to take a lot more to convince myself that it's a comfortable arrangement, but little things like this make the process start. Kudos to you making this thread, Geanna, you should know that you're already making a difference.

Glad to hear I have gone through 4 cups of coffee and 11 hours of my day digging through research, there's a page of links I can start adding soon. I actually use to work for a non-profit bully organisation, and was partnered with the actual Bully Project. I use to do seminars at schools for teachers on creating school programmes to help kids with bullying, and LGBT exposure was a given. So I've got a little experience under my belt.

[Edgy Opinions]

It's also what they actually mean. As an agender person myself (the whole notion of gender seems a bit odd to me), I think of myself as being pretty neutral on issues of trans/cis, given that neither apply.

I find the notions of 'cisgender' and 'transgender' even more odd. They, by very definition, describe how one identifies IN COMPARISON TO how someone else thinks that person should identify. I don't see any reason to bring what other people think about it into anything.

I think that saying 'I'm ___ gender' makes more sense than 'I'm trans/cis ___'.

Cis people are those who had gender birth designation as X and identify as X.

Trans people are those who had gender birth designation as X and identify as Y, Z, or 0.

It actually does make sense. Nothing to do with biology. (At least not necessarily so.)

[Geanna]

That is what cis people often say it is, but really, trans men attract me just as much as cis men even if there's no recognizable sign of transition.

Perhaps you should look for gynophilia and androphilia, that refers to attraction to genitals (and, perhaps, the related phenotype with it).

It's also what they actually mean. As an agender person myself (the whole notion of gender seems a bit odd to me), I think of myself as being pretty neutral on issues of trans/cis, given that neither apply.

I find the notions of 'cisgender' and 'transgender' even more odd. They, by very definition, describe how one identifies IN COMPARISON TO how someone else thinks that person should identify. I don't see any reason to bring what other people think about it into anything.

I think that saying 'I'm ___ gender' makes more sense than 'I'm trans/cis ___'.

Agender is a new topic for me, [is actually delving into it] since I'm trying to wrap my head around the notion; Personally, I feel the only applicable use of Transgender is on medical records or areas where such needs to be discerned [Hormone regimens for example] - outside of those fields, Male, Female, Androgyne, Agender work well enough.

[Chrysaor]

As far as the clothing, is it me, or is the male wardrobe rather lacking? Female clothing is just insane.

I'm a guy and I have to agree

Although it is also ridiculous how much more expensive women's clothings are nowadays and a lot are a bit OTT with their fake pockets and their unnecessarily see-through-ness or their plunging neckline. For normal/simple t-shirts and stuffs my girl friends always have to buy male clothes.

[Val Halla]

Now, I would complain about a stupid new law that Russia is putting in place to do with transgender people, but I'm not sure if I should. Should I?

[WestRedMaple]

It's also what they actually mean. As an agender person myself (the whole notion of gender seems a bit odd to me), I think of myself as being pretty neutral on issues of trans/cis, given that neither apply.

I find the notions of 'cisgender' and 'transgender' even more odd. They, by very definition, describe how one identifies IN COMPARISON TO how someone else thinks that person should identify. I don't see any reason to bring what other people think about it into anything.

I think that saying 'I'm ___ gender' makes more sense than 'I'm trans/cis ___'.

Cis people are those who had gender birth designation as X and identify as X.

Trans people are those who had gender birth designation as X and identify as Y, Z, or 0.

It actually does make sense. Nothing to do with biology. (At least not necessarily so.)

Why does comparing your gender to someone else's opinion of what it SHOULD be make sense? What value is gained there?

[Nature-Spirits]

As far as the clothing, is it me, or is the male wardrobe rather lacking? Female clothing is just insane.

Definitely. I love both masculine and feminine clothes, and I would love to be able to wear both; unfortunately, being 6'2" and having broad shoulders, not very many feminine clothes fit me. I mean, usually I don't mind presenting as male (since I do move along the gender spectrum, and often I'm closer to being male than I am to being female anyway), but sometimes I can get really dysphoric when I want to present as female but can't due to my limiting wardrobe.

I do have a bra and makeshift breasts I've made from really fluffy socks, but I haven't worn those out in public yet.

[Geanna]

I'm pretty tomboyish myself [boots>high heels] - I've never been big on wearing dresses or tons of make-up, growing up I enjoyed playing with GI-Joe and War as much as I did with barbies. I don't suppose you could find someone who'd dress up with you

As far as the clothing, is it me, or is the male wardrobe rather lacking? Female clothing is just insane.

I cared the most about Lego and videogames. I was a spoiled kid, so I actually had public square toys at hand in my own house.

And I agree with you. Skirts need to become gender-neutral.

I'm not against wearing a skit, jeans and a skirt for some reason just seem to mesh well on myself. Speaking of which, that gives me a new idea for a category, some resources for Trans* on make-up and clothing might be nice. Since that can be extremely frustrating at the start.

[Edgy Opinions]

Agender is a new topic for me, [is actually delving into it] since I'm trying to wrap my head around the notion; Personally, I feel the only applicable use of Transgender is on medical records or areas where such needs to be discerned [Hormone regimens for example] - outside of those fields, Male, Female, Androgyne, Agender work well enough.

It's necessary in political and social discourse.

Now, I would complain about a stupid new law that Russia is putting in place to do with transgender people, but I'm not sure if I should. Should I?

Yes, it'd be okay.

[Edgy Opinions]

Why does comparing your gender to someone else's opinion of what it SHOULD be make sense? What value is gained there?

Identity politics.

They forced it on you, and you still WON.

And people should quit stop forcing it on other people, because we are here to share our narratives about why it's fucked.

[Val Halla]

On the subject of transgender people, Russia has decided to institute a strange law against them driving, among other groups

Russia has listed transsexual and transgender people among those who will no longer qualify for driving licences.

Fetishism, exhibitionism and voyeurism are also included as "mental disorders" now barring people from driving.

The government says it is tightening medical controls for drivers because Russia has too many road accidents.

"Pathological" gambling and compulsive stealing are also on the list. Russian psychiatrists and human rights lawyers have condemned the move.

The announcement follows international complaints about Russian harassment of gay-rights activists.

In 2013 Russia made "promoting non-traditional lifestyles" illegal.

Valery Evtushenko at the Russian Psychiatric Association voiced concern about the driving restrictions, speaking to the BBC Russian Service. He said some people would avoid seeking psychiatric help, fearing a driving ban.

The Association of Russian Lawyers for Human Rights called the new law "discriminatory". It said it would demand clarifications from the Russian Constitutional Court and seek support from international human rights organisations.

But the Professional Drivers Union supported the move. "We have too many deaths on the road, and I believe toughening medical requirements for applicants is fully justified," said the union's head Alexander Kotov.

However, he said the requirements should not be so strict for non-professional drivers.

Mikhail Strakhov, a Russian psychiatric expert, told BBC Russian that the definition of "personality disorders" was too vague and some disorders would not affect a person's ability to drive a car safely.

Silly old Putin. What effect would being transgender have on driving?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30735673

[Geanna]

As far as the clothing, is it me, or is the male wardrobe rather lacking? Female clothing is just insane.

I'm a guy and I have to agree

Although it is also ridiculous how much more expensive women's clothings are nowadays and a lot are a bit OTT with their fake pockets and their unnecessarily see-through-ness or their plunging neckline. For normal/simple t-shirts and stuffs my girl friends always have to buy male clothes.

**May or may not enjoy rummaging Good-Will for clothing.

All the fancy stuff is nice and all, it irritates me, [isn't a very endowed one], that finding clothing that doesn't have a plunging neckline, or is fitted for women with small breasts is well hard. Typically I wear a hoodie for most of the day, I like to be more comfortable, usually I just throw on a t-shirt when I'm going out.

[Nature-Spirits]

Cis people are those who had gender birth designation as X and identify as X.

Trans people are those who had gender birth designation as X and identify as Y, Z, or 0.

It actually does make sense. Nothing to do with biology. (At least not necessarily so.)

Why does comparing your gender to someone else's opinion of what it SHOULD be make sense? What value is gained there?

It makes sense in discussion about gender identity, because no matter the gender, the trans* experience is different from the cis experience (i.e. trans* people often face challenges that cis people might not even be aware exist). As a result, many trans* people consider being trans* as a part of their identity; this is why trans* communities crop up.

[Edgy Opinions]

That Genderbread diagram . . . I've never seen everything laid out like that before.

And it still lacks a lot of detail.

For example, asexuals, aromantics, and those in the middle between them and the allos.

Gender can't be really quantified mathematically e.g. with a straight line, albeit I wouldn't think of any better representation.

Sex is also far more complex that a straight line from A to B, and they used the trans symbol to represent it (that's actually bad).

[Geanna]

Now, I would complain about a stupid new law that Russia is putting in place to do with transgender people, but I'm not sure if I should. Should I?

Well - it does relate to the discussion, but there already is a thread for it :|

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

If there is already a thread for a topic, it is best that the overall topic be taken there, please. Referencing problems is fine, but don't let any one thing overtake the overall purpose of the thread, please. Thanks!

[Geanna]

Cis people are those who had gender birth designation as X and identify as X.

Trans people are those who had gender birth designation as X and identify as Y, Z, or 0.

It actually does make sense. Nothing to do with biology. (At least not necessarily so.)

Why does comparing your gender to someone else's opinion of what it SHOULD be make sense? What value is gained there?

Not really much - One of the biggest things for Trans people for example, is dealing with fear, fear of being beaten, killed, misgendered, not being seen as a real woman/man. The fact of the matter is, there needs to be a point when you stop concerning yourself over it. Often not, if you're worrying about it excessively, you'll out yourself - just go on with your day and be you.

[WestRedMaple]

Why does comparing your gender to someone else's opinion of what it SHOULD be make sense? What value is gained there?

Identity politics.

They forced it on you, and you still WON.

And people should quit stop forcing it on other people, because we are here to share our narratives about why it's fucked.

But saying the equivalent of 'someone else thinks I'm ___, but I'm actually ___' is inherently weaker than just saying 'I'm ___'.

Why should someone else's mistaken opinion be worthy of repeating over and over? I don't think it holds any value. As such, it wouldn't be worth mentioning.

[Geanna]

Why does comparing your gender to someone else's opinion of what it SHOULD be make sense? What value is gained there?

It makes sense in discussion about gender identity, because no matter the gender, the trans* experience is different from the cis experience (i.e. trans* people often face challenges that cis people might not even be aware exist). As a result, many trans* people consider being trans* as a part of their identity; this is why trans* communities crop up.

The most hilarious thing I've encountered, is sexism. Once you've transitioned far enough that there's no-more doubt, it's funny how you suddenly gain a good representation or experience of sexism first-hand. Though I do enjoy doors being opened for me, I've always wondered why that's not as much of a courtesy for men - i.e., you see more people opening doors for women than men. Suddenly, you're too weak to do anything, it's an odd and quick twist to things.

[Geanna]

As far as the clothing, is it me, or is the male wardrobe rather lacking? Female clothing is just insane.

Definitely. I love both masculine and feminine clothes, and I would love to be able to wear both; unfortunately, being 6'2" and having broad shoulders, not very many feminine clothes fit me. I mean, usually I don't mind presenting as male (since I do move along the gender spectrum, and often I'm closer to being male than I am to being female anyway), but sometimes I can get really dysphoric when I want to present as female but can't due to my limiting wardrobe.

I do have a bra and makeshift breasts I've made from really fluffy socks, but I haven't worn those out in public yet.

I've actually come across some links that could be of interest to you I'll post them when I make a new category over fashion and make-up.

[Edgy Opinions]

But saying the equivalent of 'someone else thinks I'm ___, but I'm actually ___' is inherently weaker than just saying 'I'm ___'.

Why should someone else's mistaken opinion be worthy of repeating over and over? I don't think it holds any value. As such, it wouldn't be worth mentioning.

That'd be nice if cissexism wasn't institutionalized so that people need to regard their gender identity as a mental illness judged as such by a potentially gate-keeping psychiatrist before being recognized by their government, and other institutions that follow its guidelines about what the citizens are and how they should be treated.

And that isn't even talking about non-institutional structural oppression, rather than institutionalized oppression.

So far, there's no such thing as neutrois, agender and androgyne legally. We are stronger when we raise awareness about all kinds of trans people. Because we depend on such awareness to expect perhaps one day to be respected and legitimized.

[Udinia]

Identity politics.

They forced it on you, and you still WON.

And people should quit stop forcing it on other people, because we are here to share our narratives about why it's fucked.

But saying the equivalent of 'someone else thinks I'm ___, but I'm actually ___' is inherently weaker than just saying 'I'm ___'.

Why should someone else's mistaken opinion be worthy of repeating over and over? I don't think it holds any value. As such, it wouldn't be worth mentioning.

I don't know about other people, but for me there's always that feeling of others thinking I'm crazy or something. And to be honest sometimes I still feel that I may be crazy, it comes and goes. But yes the social stigma is a huge factor, we're constantly fighting centuries of sterotypes and misconstruations about gender.

[Geanna]

But saying the equivalent of 'someone else thinks I'm ___, but I'm actually ___' is inherently weaker than just saying 'I'm ___'.

Why should someone else's mistaken opinion be worthy of repeating over and over? I don't think it holds any value. As such, it wouldn't be worth mentioning.

I don't know about other people, but for me there's always that feeling of others thinking I'm crazy or something. And to be honest sometimes I still feel that I may be crazy, it comes and goes. But yes the social stigma is a huge factor, we're constantly fighting centuries of sterotypes and misconstruations about gender.

The feeling of going crazy - is anxiety. The good news, you're not actually going crazy, one of the most interesting ways to help fight it is to think, ''If I can question that I am going crazy, I am not crazy''. Weird trick I picked up, since I have pretty horrid anxiety.

Specifically, what you are experiencing is most likely Social Anxiety - which isn't uncommon, many people have it to varying degrees. You have to get yourself to the point of not worrying over other people so much, there will always be one person who will not like you. It's a given, simply limit your exposure to them if possible. This is another major issue with people who are Trans - paranoia especially, you have to learn how to let go of the past in order to move forwards.

[WestRedMaple]

But saying the equivalent of 'someone else thinks I'm ___, but I'm actually ___' is inherently weaker than just saying 'I'm ___'.

Why should someone else's mistaken opinion be worthy of repeating over and over? I don't think it holds any value. As such, it wouldn't be worth mentioning.

That'd be nice if cissexism wasn't institutionalized so that people need to regard their gender identity as a mental illness judged as such by a potentially gate-keeping psychiatrist before being recognized by their government, and other institutions that follow its guidelines about what the citizens are and how they should be treated.

And that isn't even talking about non-institutional structural oppression, rather than institutionalized oppression.

So far, there's no such thing as neutrois, agender and androgyne legally. We are stronger when we raise awareness about all kinds of trans people. Because we depend on such awareness to expect perhaps one day to be respected and legitimized.

But, when the point is that someone else's opinion of whether someone's gender is 'correct' is ustterly irrelevant (which it is), repeatedly pointing out that others disagree implies that their mistake actually has value.

As for 'legally' being any of those things, I've filled out a lot of government forms in my life( from driver's license, to the military, to passports, immigration documents, taxes, pilot's certificates, etc), and I don't recall ever being asked for my gender. I've certainly never had a 'legal' gender of any sort. Maybe they do that in some countries, but it has never come up in any of the 11 states in which I've lived in the US.