NationStates' Transgender Thread

[Geanna]

That's a thing in the trans community? Damn. I've seen it in the gay community, ''I'm gayer than you''. Not sure what that accomplishes though.

I'm cisgender and whether someone ascribes to the binary or not doesn't bother me, a bit.

Unfortunately, it's quite common. I can't say whether the same is true for other types of minorities, but for queer folk there's this constant competition (not everywhere, luckily, buts it's prevalent enough) to be "more queer" and, therefore, "less privileged", because "more privileged" people apparently don't deserve the same support.

That's my take on the psychology of it, anyway. I can't say for certain, because personally, I don't see why it should matter who's "more" or "less" queer, but I've observed enough of it in both the gay and trans communities.

Of course, there's also the whole thing where the less "aberrant" group disassociates itself from the more "aberrant" group to be more acceptable to larger society. Much of the gay community did it to the trans community, and now much of the binary trans community is doing it to the non-binary community. Hopefully things get better soon; the communities, as far as I can tell, are starting to work more closely than they have in a long time, and a lot of drag performers have taken up the queer cause too, so there are signs that the future is bright, I think.

I've never been able to understand the ideal behind ''privilege'' - it just seems trivial to me. As far as my most recent statement, involving certain areas of Tumblr, I feel I had fed into an argument without the intention of doing so - such is the detriment to communication over the webs.

My issue rests with Tumblrites whose intention is to troll-out the Transgender community by intentionally coming up with such modes as ''I identify as a racecar'' as was previously demonstrated earlier on this thread. I by no means meant to elude to the idea, or thought of ''more legitimate Trans'' individuals, who are ''more trans'' than others, or any argument hinting towards that - Essentially, in order to clarify, my comment of ''legitimate Trans'', outlined in that prior post was to separate individuals who are, indeed Trans, binary or not - from those whose purpose is to troll. In which case, that whole debate sparked out across several pages, and in all, it wasn't a completely negative debate, for the most part people remained civil to the best of their degree. However, there's my clarification, as far as those welcome on this thread, Cis, Trans, Agender - whatever, I don't want any person here, who is actually interested in the discussion and not present for the intention to troll or flame, to be excluded from said discussions.

As far as those discussions, I am quite impressed with how they've been handled, and glad not much issue has arisen from them as experienced on other threads, that can get heated. So, Thank you.

[Geanna]

okay, can I ask one question? I hope I don't get too much flak for this but... how can one be non binary? I ask out of curiosity

Gender has to deal with introspective perception - or how one essentially views themselves mentally and their overall identity in this regard. While one's sex can be resultant of biological factors, Gender deals with the mind. This is where Transgender Identity may arise within an individual, typically, where one's biological sex is aligned with one's introspective gender, there's little issue or stress that arises, it may be something a cisgender individual may not think about, and therefore or or may be otherwise oblivious to issues in which these two do not align.

Someone who however, has a misalignment of their introspective gender in correlation to their biological sex is where the issue arises and produces stress. Non-Binary works in a similar manner, except the introspective gender is inherently absent or devoid of the binary model, one introspectively assumes a role that does not conform or follow either Male or Female, and thus the typical connotations associated with the binary model are not present. Simply, an individual disassociates from the binary model, either because they exhibit characteristics generally associated to both Male and Female Gender Introspection [Genderfluid/Androgyne] or because they exhibit neither, or feel that such classification is not necessarily applicable towards themselves and thus these distinctions are not defined. [Agender*]

[Xomic]

Let's see, human sexual dimorphism: chromosomes - gonads - genital shape and size - endocrine gearing - endocrine function - neurological wiring

Very minute sexual ambiguity in
a) impossible to be very minute b) I'd assume not all testes or ovaries are alike c) no people have genitals alike each other d) developmental differences in each person are unique in this regard e) we could have intersex conditions approach idk 5-10% of the population if we pathologized people taking this in consideration (and artificially all transitioning trans people would further pump - npi - the number) f) is there even an exact male or an exact female model for a brain? I don't think so. Everybody has it.

Minute sexual ambiguity in
a) impossible b) ovotestes aren't a meaningful spectrum, but many of them aren't functional enough to be fertile, trigger certain forms of fetal genital development, or, in the case of testes, to descend... I guess it's relatively common and not related at all to chromosomal abnormalities as you put it c) I most likely have it and I'm fairly sure I can't be classified as intersex due to that alone lolol d) see above, we don't react to hormones the same way because of a very delicate balance of how our genetics interact with womb hormone bath e) see above f) see above

Insignificant but functional sexual ambiguity in
a) XX testicular people [and XY ovarian people?] caused by SRY gene craziness aren't unhealthy or much likely to be infertile IIRC b) see above; here, I will take your word that they're more likely to be sterile, but albeit infertility is a condition, it is not necessarily an illness/disease, at most it's a disability in context c) stuff you said yourself that most likely shouldn't be pathologized d) see above e) see above f) well if you're transmedicalist... I'm fairly sure people like me might have a "mildly trans womanly" neurology but we don't end up like you people because gender development is relevant out of the womb as well and this is where this distinction happens, what are the neurological boundaries between the people we are sure to be cis and the people we are sure to be trans? I guess many people in here are still very likely to just be gender nonconforming in childhood, like plenty of cis gays, lesbians and bisexuals

Mild but functionally significant sexual ambiguity in
a) same of the answer for b above b) see above c) see above (yay for people with both penis and vagina/womb) d) see above e) okay they might take medications to not be dysphoric or not have puberty triggered soon or... but those are societal/psychology-related issues rather than physiological ones f) still a lot of ~gender nonconforming~ coming from here, some of them might become alike you or me or others in this thread, others still got their chance of cis heterosexuality, fetuses don't work like that, pushing hormones and then picking your little minority orientation and/or gender alignment as result

Functionally significant sexual ambiguity

Strong sexual ambiguity

Severe sexual ambiguity

Goodness gracious, What a horribly organized attempt to argue a point.

You seem to be deeply confused about what is and isn't normal, for example at the beginning you make some sort of statement that no two people have the same looking genitals. This may be true, but it doesn't address the fact that there are clear 'abnormal' genitals out there; if we were to take a single variable, such as the length of the penis, we could say with confidence that there is something out of the norm here when the length of the penis is clearly outside of the a certain number of standard deviations from the mean penis length. Micropenises, a congenital disorder, are defined by a length of penis that's 2.5 standard deviations from the mean penis length (shorter, that is). A penis that was 2.5 standard deviations longer from the mean is also 'abnormal'.

Therefore, we can describe 'normality' (if we want to use that term) as being a certain number of standard deviations from the mean average of whatever it is we're examining. Those outside of this (which, depending on what sort of distribution we're talking about may be different from a 68-95-99.7 rule we might see in a bell curve) are called outliers and can be considered abnormal. And this can be true for pretty much anything we want to talk about in terms of what is or isn't normal variations of the human body (or other organisms).

No two brains are the same, for example, but we can say with confidence that missing a hunk of it lies outside what is 'normal' for a human brain. If we were talking about, say, the broca's area of the brain, for some people, that area might be bigger, some people might be smaller then the average mean size for the area, but if it's missing completely or extremely large we can say it's abnormal.

Of course, I imagine the statistics of these sort of thing is far more complex than I'm willing to currently tackle or could explain, but this should give you a basic understanding of what it going on.

When I describe something as 'normal' or 'abnormal' I'm not doing so with the positive or negative connotations that you yourself may attach to it.

Do you understand? Human phenotypes are a clusterfuck.

No, they're not, not when you understand how statistics deals with dissipation of data. And we're not even addressing the fact that most 'abnormal 'variations' of the human phenotype result in a host of medical issues.

If you want to argue many of these people are healthy, then maybe we should stop addressing people as clinically intersex as if it was some one-size-catches-all umbrella rather than a blurry non-classification, and instead refer to the actual conditions. The fact is that many of those are indeed sexually ambiguous but not at all "defective". No issue here because of my pronounced Raphe line, high voice and facial features that remind one of my grandma, captain.

Yet you argue that intersex is a 'sex'; as you say, it's an umbrella term for a variety of congenital disorders such as Klinefelter syndrome to things like Ovotestis. The only commonality between them is that they're disorders affecting the genitals/sexual characteristics. We can group Omphalocele and Diaphragmatic hernias into one group too, and call them Musculoskeletal defects as well, but they're relatively different disorders at the end of the day.

Maybe people should address each of these levels in which we can identify sexual dimorphism as different phenomena, with different medical language relating to them (so that one, fertile or infertile - to be specified if you so please -, can have an ambiguous watchamacallit, a dyadic-like testicular or ovarian Cthulhu and gloobgloob, and an ambiguous but less intermediate thingyamagiggle, and each are treated as independent elements of their physique, even though they might be derived from the same developmental process; imagine it like the tucute absurd gender lists of human anatomy). But this is not going to happen.

Which is exactly what medical science does; the only difference is that your 'tucute absurd gender lists of human anatomy' is a list of medical conditions.

In fact, let me get that for you. Every single thing on that list is a name for a abnormal aspect, or aspects, of the human anatomy, at birth. Not that it's exhaustive in any fashion.

'True hermaphroditism' is a medical term, but doesn't necessarily indicate that the individual is what might be called a hermaphrodite. It describes a medicial condition in which both gonads exist, or they've fused together into an ovotestis. There have been no documented cases of humans with both sets of gonads that function, however--and there's only been about 11 reported cases where one of the two sets gonads/gonad tissues function. Typically the condition has to do with two zygotes fusing together in some fashion; for example two ovum, fertilized by two sperm would normally result in twins, (non identical); if they were to fuse together into a single zygote, and one zygote was male, and the other was female, you might get 'true hermaphroditism'.

Further, the majority of intersex cases are not true hermaphroditism to begin with, so even if we were to accept the premise that true hermaphroditism is a sex in humans, it wouldn't mean that intersex individuals are a 'sex' themselves.

What sex do they belong to, then?

For intersex individuals? Strictly speaking, it depends on the condition we're talking about; certain intersex conditions, like complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are female, simply because their body has, for the most part, developed as if the y chromosome didn't exist. They have non-functioning testis, of course, and they lack a uterus and ovaries and so forth, and there are other symptoms that occur, like reduced body hair, but largely they're female in appearance in most regards. Other intersex conditions are just as non-ambiguous.

In cases of ambiguity, it gets a bit more complex. Sex could be determined by chromosomes, of course, (if we're talking strictly about ambiguous genitals, with no other more defined condition that might alter the number of chromosomes) largely because there's increasing evidence (from trans people, etc) that sex is also in the brain itself, so even if the genitals have failed to develop normally, that doesn't mean their brain isn't relatively normal. But since I'm not sure if we know yet where the brain takes it's instructions from, when developing a sex (since trans people don't necessarily have a conflict between their physical body and their chromosomes) this too maybe inaccurate. Probably the best way would be to use brain scans of the relevant areas and go from there, but we're not quite there yet.

Something like true hermaphroditism is perhaps most difficult to discern what sex that individual might be otherwise, largely due to the fact that, as I note, most cases of this disorder are the result of two opposite sexed zygotes fusing together into a single zygote in the womb. In a real sense, they're two individuals that happen to make up 50% of the person's body. It's my understanding that chimeras tend to have organs comprised of chromosomes of one set or another; that is, a liver will be made up of cells from one zygote, where as something like a kidney will be made up of cells from the other. This has to do with how embryos develop, once it reaches a blastocyst stage, we can usually point to which cells will eventually develop into which organs, including the brain. But I'm not familiar with the condition or how chimeras develop to say whether we ought to expect the brain of a chimera to be of one set or another. It may very well be the case that we could sex such an individual by how their brain is too.

[Tsaraine]

Xomic, while I concur with you that intersex conditions are a lot more rare than Edgy Opinions apparently believes, I think if you're getting into genotyping and brain scans to determine sex you're no longer dealing with what's more important - the phenotype and outward presentation. If someone's genitals are so ambiguous as to utterly defy easy categorization, at the end of the day it's just easier to let them be whatever gender they prefer to be - or neither gender, if they prefer. I get that you're talking about sex, not gender, but I think you're leaning too heavily on biological sex here.

[Edgy Opinions]

I have a question for the NS trans community:

Have you ever experienced discrimination or hate from other trans people like yourself?

A lot. Basically what Dumb Ideologies and Nature-Spirits described, but a little more specialized in the kind messages.

I'm too privileged, my gender sounds invented, I'm probably a cis person pretending, I have cis man privilege, I have cis man privilege and need to keep absolutely quiet in discussions about women and feminism, I have cis man privilege and I'm a silencing, gas-lighting, "academicist" (term for when one silences through the use of academic language to make their position seem more legitimate, what is associated with elitist positivist behavior), protagonism-stealing, navel-gazed misogynist, points about my gender are excessive and hijacking of the discussion, I invent absurd terms to compensate for the fact that it's all a lot of shit, I make a community unsafe for black people (this certain black person I made the community unsafe for was a majorly transphobic cis feminist that kept de-legitimizing non-binary people - and I had to apologize for the language I used about her even when she was out of our non-binary group, btw, to which I complied -, and past this instance made a group just with the point of educating trans women about how we're something they need to isolate themselves from) and full of shit with my presence, etc. etc. etc.

Some of them are originally comments made by cis women made legitimized and repeated by trans people.

Of course this adds because I don't apologize to none of these people unless I'm rude or I make them start to think of past traumas, and when it becomes "kind" I usually just tell them to prove/explain what they mean (usually as a friendly request at first) or be welcomed to silence again. Since protagonism-to-not-be-silenced is their ultimate cognitive dissonance/intellectual dishonesty-allowing card but it's not very effective with me, they just block. Block. Block. Ban. Block. Block. Delete all comments and ban. Block. All this more than 60 times.

And some 20 more I blocked myself, often because friends of mine spotted them making toxic messages about me without we having ever interacted, presumably because they know me from screenshots out of context and groups I was banned for being intentionally misinterpreted.

I ended up leaving Facebook, at least until they forget about me a bit. (I came back with my main profile just now for unrelated reasons.)

I'd say it's a lot more mild cyberbullying than prejudice/hate, though, because I'm sure none of that would have happened without disrespecting the implicit, unofficial hierarchy of authority and allowance to speak within many of these spaces.

[Tsaraine]

I can see how you'd experience that - you've said before that, to the casual observer on the street, you appear male, and some feminists can, unfortunately, be highly transphobic. Those transphobic feminists are going to identify you as male. A lot of feminist spaces are explicitly or de facto women's-issue spaces, so issues regarding other genders are seen as irrelevant at best, obnoxiously stealing the conversational bandwidth at worst (a lot of feminists (and MRAs, for that matter) seem to regard gender issues as zero-sum, and demand attention paid only to their gender, for fear that paying attention to other genders will deplete their scarce shits given). To be kind, your gender issues and theories are fairly esoteric, so it's understandable that some feminists would be like "Aaargh, why is this man clogging up our womyn-friendly series of tubes with this bullshit?!". So it's understandable where they're coming from, even if, in a specifically trans-focused space, it's unwarranted and unfriendly.

[Fanosolia]

okay, can I ask one question? I hope I don't get too much flak for this but... how can one be non binary? I ask out of curiosity

Gender has to deal with introspective perception - or how one essentially views themselves mentally and their overall identity in this regard. While one's sex can be resultant of biological factors, Gender deals with the mind. This is where Transgender Identity may arise within an individual, typically, where one's biological sex is aligned with one's introspective gender, there's little issue or stress that arises, it may be something a cisgender individual may not think about, and therefore or or may be otherwise oblivious to issues in which these two do not align.

Someone who however, has a misalignment of their introspective gender in correlation to their biological sex is where the issue arises and produces stress. Non-Binary works in a similar manner, except the introspective gender is inherently absent or devoid of the binary model, one introspectively assumes a role that does not conform or follow either Male or Female, and thus the typical connotations associated with the binary model are not present. Simply, an individual disassociates from the binary model, either because they exhibit characteristics generally associated to both Male and Female Gender Introspection [Genderfluid/Androgyne] or because they exhibit neither, or feel that such classification is not necessarily applicable towards themselves and thus these distinctions are not defined. [Agender*]

so, it's more than just gender roles then when you say identify right? I don'-t know, as you said I'm sort of oblivious because I'm male and comfortable with that, but I also have a hard time labeling thing male or female that's not.. physical? if that makes sense? At least that explained non-binary to me a bit clearer. thank you.

[Grenartia]

I have a question for the NS trans community:

Have you ever experienced discrimination or hate from other trans people like yourself?

Some unfriendliness from "more trans than thou" idiots who demand that everyone be as binary as possible to not freak out the cisfolks, certainly, but nothing more than that.

I fortunately haven't gotten any of that from anybody else in the community.

Because this warranted a thread.

Because your paradoxically effortful indifference warranted a post.

Silly, DI, of course it did.

That is a fascinatingly helpful OP.

Indeed. Geanna should be proud of herself.

'True hermaphroditism' is a medical term, but doesn't necessarily indicate that the individual is what might be called a hermaphrodite. It describes a medicial condition in which both gonads exist, or they've fused together into an ovotestis. There have been no documented cases of humans with both sets of gonads that function, however--and there's only been about 11 reported cases where one of the two sets gonads/gonad tissues function. Typically the condition has to do with two zygotes fusing together in some fashion; for example two ovum, fertilized by two sperm would normally result in twins, (non identical); if they were to fuse together into a single zygote, and one zygote was male, and the other was female, you might get 'true hermaphroditism'.

Further, the majority of intersex cases are not true hermaphroditism to begin with, so even if we were to accept the premise that true hermaphroditism is a sex in humans, it wouldn't mean that intersex individuals are a 'sex' themselves.

What sex do they belong to, then?

okay, can I ask one question? I hope I don't get too much flak for this but... how can one be non binary? I ask out of curiosity

Alright, because I'm in a hurry I'll just do a short little exercise, but I'm sure someone else will write out an explanation in a bit.

Imagine not feeling male or female. You are now imagining how a non-binary person experiences gender.

I'd say more like "not feeling exclusively male or female".

Unfortunately, it's quite common. I can't say whether the same is true for other types of minorities, but for queer folk there's this constant competition (not everywhere, luckily, buts it's prevalent enough) to be "more queer" and, therefore, "less privileged", because "more privileged" people apparently don't deserve the same support.

That's my take on the psychology of it, anyway. I can't say for certain, because personally, I don't see why it should matter who's "more" or "less" queer, but I've observed enough of it in both the gay and trans communities.

Of course, there's also the whole thing where the less "aberrant" group disassociates itself from the more "aberrant" group to be more acceptable to larger society. Much of the gay community did it to the trans community, and now much of the binary trans community is doing it to the non-binary community. Hopefully things get better soon; the communities, as far as I can tell, are starting to work more closely than they have in a long time, and a lot of drag performers have taken up the queer cause too, so there are signs that the future is bright, I think.

I've never been able to understand the ideal behind ''privilege'' - it just seems trivial to me. As far as my most recent statement, involving certain areas of Tumblr, I feel I had fed into an argument without the intention of doing so - such is the detriment to communication over the webs.

My issue rests with Tumblrites whose intention is to troll-out the Transgender community by intentionally coming up with such modes as ''I identify as a racecar'' as was previously demonstrated earlier on this thread. I by no means meant to elude to the idea, or thought of ''more legitimate Trans'' individuals, who are ''more trans'' than others, or any argument hinting towards that - Essentially, in order to clarify, my comment of ''legitimate Trans'', outlined in that prior post was to separate individuals who are, indeed Trans, binary or not - from those whose purpose is to troll. In which case, that whole debate sparked out across several pages, and in all, it wasn't a completely negative debate, for the most part people remained civil to the best of their degree. However, there's my clarification, as far as those welcome on this thread, Cis, Trans, Agender - whatever, I don't want any person here, who is actually interested in the discussion and not present for the intention to troll or flame, to be excluded from said discussions.

As far as those discussions, I am quite impressed with how they've been handled, and glad not much issue has arisen from them as experienced on other threads, that can get heated. So, Thank you.

No, thank you.

As for the privilege thing, I too, was turned away from it, at least initially, because of Tumblr's bullshit, but as time has gone on, I've come to realize that in a lot of contexts, there's no other word to describe some things going on.

I can see how you'd experience that - you've said before that, to the casual observer on the street, you appear male, and some feminists can, unfortunately, be highly transphobic. Those transphobic feminists are going to identify you as male. A lot of feminist spaces are explicitly or de facto women's-issue spaces, so issues regarding other genders are seen as irrelevant at best, obnoxiously stealing the conversational bandwidth at worst (a lot of feminists (and MRAs, for that matter) seem to regard gender issues as zero-sum, and demand attention paid only to their gender, for fear that paying attention to other genders will deplete their scarce shits given). To be kind, your gender issues and theories are fairly esoteric, so it's understandable that some feminists would be like "Aaargh, why is this man clogging up our womyn-friendly series of tubes with this bullshit?!". So it's understandable where they're coming from, even if, in a specifically trans-focused space, it's unwarranted and unfriendly.

Reminds me of a comparison I once made, regarding feminists, MRAs, and trans people. It went something like this:

A 6-foot tall man (MRA) is arguing with his 5-foot tall wife (feminist), because she wants to contribute her fair share to the household's income, and he inexplicably feels threatened by this. Meanwhile, their infant kids (binary trans people) are crying because they're hungry and need diaper changes. Only the mother notices, but even that is in the back of her mind, as she's focusing most of her energy on arguing with her husband. Meanwhile, the family cat (non-binary people) has gone a week without the litter box being cleaned and the food and water bowls being filled, and so is mewing, but only the kids seem to notice the cat's existence.

[Geanna]

Gender has to deal with introspective perception - or how one essentially views themselves mentally and their overall identity in this regard. While one's sex can be resultant of biological factors, Gender deals with the mind. This is where Transgender Identity may arise within an individual, typically, where one's biological sex is aligned with one's introspective gender, there's little issue or stress that arises, it may be something a cisgender individual may not think about, and therefore or or may be otherwise oblivious to issues in which these two do not align.

Someone who however, has a misalignment of their introspective gender in correlation to their biological sex is where the issue arises and produces stress. Non-Binary works in a similar manner, except the introspective gender is inherently absent or devoid of the binary model, one introspectively assumes a role that does not conform or follow either Male or Female, and thus the typical connotations associated with the binary model are not present. Simply, an individual disassociates from the binary model, either because they exhibit characteristics generally associated to both Male and Female Gender Introspection [Genderfluid/Androgyne] or because they exhibit neither, or feel that such classification is not necessarily applicable towards themselves and thus these distinctions are not defined. [Agender*]

so, it's more than just gender roles then when you say identify right? I don'-t know, as you said I'm sort of oblivious because I'm male and comfortable with that, but I also have a hard time labeling thing male or female that's not.. physical? if that makes sense? At least that explained non-binary to me a bit clearer. thank you.

I can only explain to the best of my ability sadly, though I've delved into studying the Psychology of it, [I love Psychology so I'm always read something involving the field], I'm not non-binary, I'm also careful to not state things that might come off as insensitive or offensive, so it's imperative to note that's never my intention.

Gender roles more correlate to Society, and stimuli thereof and their affects on one's own mind. I use the term identity to further help separate Societal perception of gender roles, and introspective gender perception. The former deals with an external stimulus, the latter is solely an internal cognition. The Mind, i.e. the Sub-conscious, Conscious, and Meta-conscious modes are very complex, and even though studies have come so far, there's a lot that can't be said for certain without understanding that further studies may change how things are perceived.

You have the body, which biologically can be Male or Female, or develop an intersex condition. All of this can be explained and observed biologically.

The mind however, isn't so easy, even thinkers like Freud encountered questions that even today, can't be fully understood, and without further studies, just can't be taken without some controversy. As far as how Introspection with Gender works, there are two fields to this, there is Gender Expression, which is what people around you see - and then there's Introspective Gender Identity, which is what people can't see, but what your mind views itself as, and ultimately feels.

Ultimately, the best way I can try to describe Gender Dysphoria and what it feels like is to use Anxiety as an example.

Everyone will at some point in their life, experience Anxiety. We all know what Anxiety feels like, some more so than others. When someone's Anxious, your awareness to yourself, and your immediate surroundings are suddenly apparent. This is a state of conscious, better known as Metacognition or Metaconscious. It is being aware of being aware - obviously this is extremely unpleasant to many people, it is a cognitive survival reflex that our brains have adapted when in fight or flight. It basically gives us a super-awareness to ourselves, and our surroundings that our brains, when not in this state, ignore. [A perfect example, up until reading this, you have not been thinking about a Pink Elephant. Now try and stop thinking about that Pink Elephant, tell yourself to not think about that Pink Elephant, Doesn't work does it?] Basically, the former part of that example would be a person who doesn't have Gender Dysphoria, the latter part would be someone who does, it doesn't go away.

Gender Dysphoria, is, essentially very similar to anxiety - you're self-aware of being aware of yourself, just like how you feel when you're anxious, except it correlates to Gender and your body. Furthermore, unlike regular anxiety which comes and goes, this can be consistent - it'd be like being perpetually locked in an anxiety attack or anxious mood that doesn't end.

[Geanna]

Some unfriendliness from "more trans than thou" idiots who demand that everyone be as binary as possible to not freak out the cisfolks, certainly, but nothing more than that.

I fortunately haven't gotten any of that from anybody else in the community.

Because your paradoxically effortful indifference warranted a post.

Silly, DI, of course it did.

That is a fascinatingly helpful OP.

Indeed. Geanna should be proud of herself.

What sex do they belong to, then?


Alright, because I'm in a hurry I'll just do a short little exercise, but I'm sure someone else will write out an explanation in a bit.

Imagine not feeling male or female. You are now imagining how a non-binary person experiences gender.

I'd say more like "not feeling exclusively male or female".

I've never been able to understand the ideal behind ''privilege'' - it just seems trivial to me. As far as my most recent statement, involving certain areas of Tumblr, I feel I had fed into an argument without the intention of doing so - such is the detriment to communication over the webs.

My issue rests with Tumblrites whose intention is to troll-out the Transgender community by intentionally coming up with such modes as ''I identify as a racecar'' as was previously demonstrated earlier on this thread. I by no means meant to elude to the idea, or thought of ''more legitimate Trans'' individuals, who are ''more trans'' than others, or any argument hinting towards that - Essentially, in order to clarify, my comment of ''legitimate Trans'', outlined in that prior post was to separate individuals who are, indeed Trans, binary or not - from those whose purpose is to troll. In which case, that whole debate sparked out across several pages, and in all, it wasn't a completely negative debate, for the most part people remained civil to the best of their degree. However, there's my clarification, as far as those welcome on this thread, Cis, Trans, Agender - whatever, I don't want any person here, who is actually interested in the discussion and not present for the intention to troll or flame, to be excluded from said discussions.

As far as those discussions, I am quite impressed with how they've been handled, and glad not much issue has arisen from them as experienced on other threads, that can get heated. So, Thank you.

No, thank you.

As for the privilege thing, I too, was turned away from it, at least initially, because of Tumblr's bullshit, but as time has gone on, I've come to realize that in a lot of contexts, there's no other word to describe some things going on.

I can see how you'd experience that - you've said before that, to the casual observer on the street, you appear male, and some feminists can, unfortunately, be highly transphobic. Those transphobic feminists are going to identify you as male. A lot of feminist spaces are explicitly or de facto women's-issue spaces, so issues regarding other genders are seen as irrelevant at best, obnoxiously stealing the conversational bandwidth at worst (a lot of feminists (and MRAs, for that matter) seem to regard gender issues as zero-sum, and demand attention paid only to their gender, for fear that paying attention to other genders will deplete their scarce shits given). To be kind, your gender issues and theories are fairly esoteric, so it's understandable that some feminists would be like "Aaargh, why is this man clogging up our womyn-friendly series of tubes with this bullshit?!". So it's understandable where they're coming from, even if, in a specifically trans-focused space, it's unwarranted and unfriendly.

Reminds me of a comparison I once made, regarding feminists, MRAs, and trans people. It went something like this:

A 6-foot tall man (MRA) is arguing with his 5-foot tall wife (feminist), because she wants to contribute her fair share to the household's income, and he inexplicably feels threatened by this. Meanwhile, their infant kids (binary trans people) are crying because they're hungry and need diaper changes. Only the mother notices, but even that is in the back of her mind, as she's focusing most of her energy on arguing with her husband. Meanwhile, the family cat (non-binary people) has gone a week without the litter box being cleaned and the food and water bowls being filled, and so is mewing, but only the kids seem to notice the cat's existence.

Oh look a hug!

[Xomic]

Xomic, while I concur with you that intersex conditions are a lot more rare than Edgy Opinions apparently believes, I think if you're getting into genotyping and brain scans to determine sex you're no longer dealing with what's more important - the phenotype and outward presentation. If someone's genitals are so ambiguous as to utterly defy easy categorization, at the end of the day it's just easier to let them be whatever gender they prefer to be - or neither gender, if they prefer. I get that you're talking about sex, not gender,

The reason I discussed genotyping and/or brain scans is largely because phenotype/outward appearance is unreliable intersex cases (and arguably in general).

I don't disagree that it's easier to let them tell us what sex (and sex, not gender!) they are, but that doesn't mean that sex doesn't have concrete discernible causation in the brain.

but I think you're leaning too heavily on biological sex here.

But sex by definition is biological, and to discuss it without reference to such would be absurd. Certainly it's primarily discerned by phenotypes and outward presentation, but that's not the end all be all of sex.

[Neutraligon]

okay, can I ask one question? I hope I don't get too much flak for this but... how can one be non binary? I ask out of curiosity

I am agender/genderless, that is I do not have a gender. That is how I can be non-binary.

To be a little more clear, gender is...how one views oneself. One does not always see oneself as male or female or somewhere on the spectrum. Some people ave a view that changes.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

I fortunately haven't gotten any of that from anybody else in the community.



Silly, DI, of course it did.



Indeed. Geanna should be proud of herself.



I'd say more like "not feeling exclusively male or female".



No, thank you.

As for the privilege thing, I too, was turned away from it, at least initially, because of Tumblr's bullshit, but as time has gone on, I've come to realize that in a lot of contexts, there's no other word to describe some things going on.



Reminds me of a comparison I once made, regarding feminists, MRAs, and trans people. It went something like this:

A 6-foot tall man (MRA) is arguing with his 5-foot tall wife (feminist), because she wants to contribute her fair share to the household's income, and he inexplicably feels threatened by this. Meanwhile, their infant kids (binary trans people) are crying because they're hungry and need diaper changes. Only the mother notices, but even that is in the back of her mind, as she's focusing most of her energy on arguing with her husband. Meanwhile, the family cat (non-binary people) has gone a week without the litter box being cleaned and the food and water bowls being filled, and so is mewing, but only the kids seem to notice the cat's existence.

Oh look a hug!

I wanna hug >w<

[Geanna]

Oh look a hug!

I wanna hug >w<

x3

[Nature-Spirits]

That is a fascinatingly helpful OP.

Indeed. Geanna should be proud of herself.

Seconded.

Alright, because I'm in a hurry I'll just do a short little exercise, but I'm sure someone else will write out an explanation in a bit.

Imagine not feeling male or female. You are now imagining how a non-binary person experiences gender.

I'd say more like "not feeling exclusively male or female".

Yes, you're right, that would be more accurate.

A 6-foot tall man (MRA) is arguing with his 5-foot tall wife (feminist), because she wants to contribute her fair share to the household's income, and he inexplicably feels threatened by this. Meanwhile, their infant kids (binary trans people) are crying because they're hungry and need diaper changes. Only the mother notices, but even that is in the back of her mind, as she's focusing most of her energy on arguing with her husband. Meanwhile, the family cat (non-binary people) has gone a week without the litter box being cleaned and the food and water bowls being filled, and so is mewing, but only the kids seem to notice the cat's existence.

This comparison actually makes a lot of sense.


By the way, does anyone find that they're more open to discussion on gender and sex with other queer people? Because I discuss these sorts of things with my queer friends quite a bit, whereas these discussions rarely take place with my cishet friends. (For instance, I've had lengthy discussions with a lesbian friend of mine about polygamy, porn, the intricacies of sexual orientation, how gender identity relates to sexual orientation, the pros and cons of marriage, etc.; as well as with other queer friends of mine). In my experience, a lot of cishet people (though certainly not all) are more shy about such discussions, and may feel uncomfortable. Thoughts?

[Edgy Opinions]

I can see how you'd experience that - you've said before that, to the casual observer on the street, you appear male, and some feminists can, unfortunately, be highly transphobic. Those transphobic feminists are going to identify you as male. A lot of feminist spaces are explicitly or de facto women's-issue spaces, so issues regarding other genders are seen as irrelevant at best, obnoxiously stealing the conversational bandwidth at worst (a lot of feminists (and MRAs, for that matter) seem to regard gender issues as zero-sum, and demand attention paid only to their gender, for fear that paying attention to other genders will deplete their scarce shits given). To be kind, your gender issues and theories are fairly esoteric, so it's understandable that some feminists would be like "Aaargh, why is this man clogging up our womyn-friendly series of tubes with this bullshit?!". So it's understandable where they're coming from, even if, in a specifically trans-focused space, it's unwarranted and unfriendly.

I understand bans from groups and unfriendings.

I don't understand screenshot exposition through out-of-context stuff and people who don't know me saying a lot of terrible things. (While other people who have very similar views get along with me fine.)

It's often a thing about which friends you have. If we act like someone, particularly someone famous, is not all within their reason and says absurd stuff, we will get cliques to hate us, and people associated with us. And if you call your enemies a pack of wolves, they will make a member of the moderation team that is their friends understand that as calling feminism "a pack of wolves" (YES, that was done to me; by a person who admins a page that had 70.000 followers by the time). A certain moderator that doesn't give a damn about what other groups think - for example, when people made the point that trans* with an asterisk actually accentuated an apparent exclusion of non-binary people from the traditional/legitimate trans identity, she went on a tangent about how there's no such thing as binarism and binary trans people have zero privilege so we don't have authority to police language (?); she also said shitty things about the difference between bi and pan without giving a damn about what actual bi people had to say.

It happened when I actually decided to stand by my words rather than just watch passively. Most of the time, I'd need to have a DFAB person, with more legitimacy within feminism, confront them. But this minority view would often put said person in a bad situation.

It wouldn't be an issue if this was an isolate controversial person thinking highly of herself, with her own very fandom. But that is not the case.

Disabled people often feel the most excluded and parodied in spaces about dealing with other forms of activism. Saying someone failed with their posture about race or gender is very likely to be listened, but people will outright laugh at you if you mention disability. Body positiveness spaces? Also terrible by accounts of trustworthy friends.

Also, the radfem-like stuff even in intersectional spaces makes me look very liberal there. That I often found common ground in that thread "why feminism is a problem" or something like that with those arguing against it already makes me a very tolerant average Joe compared to them. It's exactly because you don't buy others' "esoteric" ideology when they hold full legitimacy on it and you supposedly holds zero that you might get hated and find yourself in bad situations. But it's not an "I believe you if you believe me" feel, more like an "don't explain my own situation because I am the only one who can assert anything ideologically meaningful about it and you're a reactionary if you act a milimeter otherwise" kind of space.

Not that I'm saying they're being terrible out of something wicked about their ideology. Nope, actually, those spaces are those where trans women and DFAB non-binary people can feel most comfortable. As soon as you get out of place where feminists dominate, you will find lots of people that should supposedly be open-minded being transphobic or fetishizing (yes, attitudes that you'd expect from some subpart of one of these trollish image boards designed to talk about fetishes). Most non-monogamy groups have the presence of such kinds.

And often they're tired because their opponents are tiresome reactionaries or confused people who don't get the whole status quo about these people who just go like "well, now the oppressed becomes the oppressor", and I'm also against said cliché reductions of what leads them to such behavior. It's not anything like what people might imagine motivates them in particular (vain indiscriminate hatred of men, etc.). It's compensation for not being listened to, being held at blame for the things that happen to them, have many unfair pressures directed at them, and when someone does not comply with said etiquette, they legitimately feel like they are being disrespected. I just doubt this mentality of "let's not criticize our failures or accept them from outsiders" helps anyone.

I see people in the English-speaking blogosphere writing about how call-out culture (when one is expected to immediately apologize - or else... well, ban + cyberbullying until they are no longer a voice there - for mistakes that are related to one's reactionary opposition to someone's activism, and are supposedly a part of the common cultural/ideological indoctrination to silence dissidence) is toxic and might harm minorities, that we shouldn't expect the internet to be our instant legitimization machine, that criticism is vital for our ideas to flourish, but no one seems to pay attention.

Many people on forums not dealing with activism, like NSG, say these people are overestimating how oppressed they are, and not paying enough attention to those that don't share their same struggle but that also are victims. I don't think so, at all, in fact I believe there must be a lot more of oppression that people don't realize, or oppression that is not being fully indebted on the institutions and/or the people responsible for it. (Even though I agree oppression is not zero-sum, and privilege can be very tricky.) That men too suffer because of rape or because of violence is more because those are glorified - particularly when directed at societal undesirables -, even if to just some degree that is implicit to most but influential to many, than because men are dehumanized.

I think that feminism fails when it's not leftist enough, or when it alone becomes a pretext for intra-community aggressive attitudes, for bullying, for violence in general. I know some voices are already silenced on a standard basis and that liberal appeals to freedumz don't hold true there just like they shouldn't on NSG. But my voice isn't the majority one, much less one that wins the culture war, or has media/academic legitimization. It becomes really shitty when people don't like to have things about their life and ideology to be assumed in some wrongful, distorted manner because the person saying things about it does not share their exact experiences, but they feel free to do the same to others.

[Edgy Opinions]

By the way, does anyone find that they're more open to discussion on gender and sex with other queer people? Because I discuss these sorts of things with my queer friends quite a bit, whereas these discussions rarely take place with my cishet friends. (For instance, I've had lengthy discussions with a lesbian friend of mine about polygamy, porn, the intricacies of sexual orientation, how gender identity relates to sexual orientation, the pros and cons of marriage, etc.; as well as with other queer friends of mine). In my experience, a lot of cishet people (though certainly not all) are more shy about such discussions, and may feel uncomfortable. Thoughts?

People of minority orientations and gender alignments are responsible for about 95% of my interaction on the subject, indeed.

I wouldn't say they're shy as much as they trust better someone that has experiences and expectations closer to theirs. Cis hetero people can talk about it at length and ad nauseam, it's just that we don't see them doing it because we might not be there. And I often don't contribute and just observe what they say because my opinions would go straight in the face (no pun intended) of theirs.

Particularly the men when they think they discovered the wonderful world of understanding women. (I'm thinking of the redpilled types who use slurs.)

[Nature-Spirits]

By the way, does anyone find that they're more open to discussion on gender and sex with other queer people? Because I discuss these sorts of things with my queer friends quite a bit, whereas these discussions rarely take place with my cishet friends. (For instance, I've had lengthy discussions with a lesbian friend of mine about polygamy, porn, the intricacies of sexual orientation, how gender identity relates to sexual orientation, the pros and cons of marriage, etc.; as well as with other queer friends of mine). In my experience, a lot of cishet people (though certainly not all) are more shy about such discussions, and may feel uncomfortable. Thoughts?

People of minority orientations and gender alignments are responsible for about 95% of my interaction on the subject, indeed.

I wouldn't say they're shy as much as they trust better someone that has experiences and expectations closer to theirs. Cis hetero people can talk about it at length and ad nauseam, it's just that we don't see them doing it because we might not be there. And I often don't contribute and just observe what they say because my opinions would go straight in the face (no pun intended) of theirs.

Particularly the men when they think they discovered the wonderful world of understanding women. (I'm thinking of the redpilled types who use slurs.)

That's an interesting perspective, and it makes sense.

And those types of men who think they understand women.... Well, they're just weird.

[Fanosolia]

so, it's more than just gender roles then when you say identify right? I don'-t know, as you said I'm sort of oblivious because I'm male and comfortable with that, but I also have a hard time labeling thing male or female that's not.. physical? if that makes sense? At least that explained non-binary to me a bit clearer. thank you.

I can only explain to the best of my ability sadly, though I've delved into studying the Psychology of it, [I love Psychology so I'm always read something involving the field], I'm not non-binary, I'm also careful to not state things that might come off as insensitive or offensive, so it's imperative to note that's never my intention.

Gender roles more correlate to Society, and stimuli thereof and their affects on one's own mind. I use the term identity to further help separate Societal perception of gender roles, and introspective gender perception. The former deals with an external stimulus, the latter is solely an internal cognition. The Mind, i.e. the Sub-conscious, Conscious, and Meta-conscious modes are very complex, and even though studies have come so far, there's a lot that can't be said for certain without understanding that further studies may change how things are perceived.

You have the body, which biologically can be Male or Female, or develop an intersex condition. All of this can be explained and observed biologically.

The mind however, isn't so easy, even thinkers like Freud encountered questions that even today, can't be fully understood, and without further studies, just can't be taken without some controversy. As far as how Introspection with Gender works, there are two fields to this, there is Gender Expression, which is what people around you see - and then there's Introspective Gender Identity, which is what people can't see, but what your mind views itself as, and ultimately feels.

Ultimately, the best way I can try to describe Gender Dysphoria and what it feels like is to use Anxiety as an example.

Everyone will at some point in their life, experience Anxiety. We all know what Anxiety feels like, some more so than others. When someone's Anxious, your awareness to yourself, and your immediate surroundings are suddenly apparent. This is a state of conscious, better known as Metacognition or Metaconscious. It is being aware of being aware - obviously this is extremely unpleasant to many people, it is a cognitive survival reflex that our brains have adapted when in fight or flight. It basically gives us a super-awareness to ourselves, and our surroundings that our brains, when not in this state, ignore. [A perfect example, up until reading this, you have not been thinking about a Pink Elephant. Now try and stop thinking about that Pink Elephant, tell yourself to not think about that Pink Elephant, Doesn't work does it?] Basically, the former part of that example would be a person who doesn't have Gender Dysphoria, the latter part would be someone who does, it doesn't go away.

Gender Dysphoria, is, essentially very similar to anxiety - you're self-aware of being aware of yourself, just like how you feel when you're anxious, except it correlates to Gender and your body. Furthermore, unlike regular anxiety which comes and goes, this can be consistent - it'd be like being perpetually locked in an anxiety attack or anxious mood that doesn't end.

I see. I mentioned gender roles because i know it can influence us so I thought there might have been at least a small correlation. Thank for clearing that up. (Darn I always knew I should have taken psychology )

Again i just never feel something like, well relating to gender, so I figured I would ask. It just seem like the thing where it seem hard to understand without actually feeling it. I mean don't get me wrong it can be done, just harder. By wait, does that mean all who have a different gender identity than their sex have Gender Dysphoria, or is that only one case?

[Edgy Opinions]

When I describe something as 'normal' or 'abnormal' I'm not doing so with the positive or negative connotations that you yourself may attach to it.

Thus I can deduce that it is pretty much an arbitrary distinction?

If intersexuality as a whole is not necessarily connected to abnormalities in what we could decisively regard as healthy bodily functions, then it does not fit the usual connotation of disease/illness.

No, they're not, not when you understand how statistics deals with dissipation of data. And we're not even addressing the fact that most 'abnormal 'variations' of the human phenotype result in a host of medical issues.

I did not equate intersexuality with genetic conditions, and I'm pretty sure you don't need to have dyadic genitalia to be functionally healthy.

Intersexuality is often under-diagnosed in regards to what it actually means developmentally rather than phenotypically (according to cultural expectations). Many intersex activists demonstrated how before. Many forms of apparently functional, healthy genitalia as decided to be so for our own cultural purposes actually are a result from developmental differences in the womb hormone bath that were characterized by ambiguity.

Which is exactly what medical science does; the only difference is that your 'tucute absurd gender lists of human anatomy' is a list of medical conditions.

In fact, let me get that for you. Every single thing on that list is a name for a abnormal aspect, or aspects, of the human anatomy, at birth. Not that it's exhaustive in any fashion.

Yeah, I want it to be very exhaustive. Because it is supposed to cover a very big amount of variation across 5 INDEPENDENT factors through which humans exhibit sexual dimorphism, and an additional sexually dimorphic function, production of sex hormones and their activity on the body, that is respectively dependent on gonadal function and endocrine gearing.

And your list doesn't pathologize the entire spectrum (or all possible spectra, if you will) of humans who are developmentally sexually ambiguous. That is what I specifically wanted you to provide evidence to be a logical exercise.

[Puryong]

Hi, I'm not transgender, I just have a question. (＾ω＾)

Are 'otherkin', people who don't identify as human, a part of the transgender community, or something totally different?

[Fanosolia]

Hi, I'm not transgender, I just have a question. (＾ω＾)

Are 'otherkin', people who don't identify as human, a part of the transgender community, or something totally different?

I think that's more spiritual if I recall but I only heard about it a few times. Iirc, isn't that those people who believe they're reincarnated from mythological creatures? (and in some cases anime characters?)

[Puryong]

Hi, I'm not transgender, I just have a question. (＾ω＾)

Are 'otherkin', people who don't identify as human, a part of the transgender community, or something totally different?

I think that's more spiritual if I recall but I only heard about it a few times. Iirc, isn't that those people who believe they're reincarnated from mythological creatures? (and in some cases anime characters?)

Yah pretty much. See in my honest opinion I think transgender is something which needs to be recognised universally, otherkin, not so much.

I've seen people identify as trees & plants, food items and even as deities (I think they call it godkin, and if you don't treat them like a god it's disrespectful)..

[Fanosolia]

I think that's more spiritual if I recall but I only heard about it a few times. Iirc, isn't that those people who believe they're reincarnated from mythological creatures? (and in some cases anime characters?)

Yah pretty much. See in my honest opinion I think transgender is something which needs to be recognised universally, otherkin, not so much.

I've seen people identify as trees & plants, food items and even as deities (I think they call it godkin, and if you don't treat them like a god it's disrespectful)..

Yep in total agreement with you there. you have no idea the awkwardness of the first one I met. needless to say... I looked like a tool.

ALso, I can see how that can be a thing, but but that eyebrow raise is probably well deserved. I never met one myself, I just heard them alot. anyways I just thought I would comment.

[Edgy Opinions]

I see. I mentioned gender roles because i know it can influence us so I thought there might have been at least a small correlation. Thank for clearing that up. (Darn I always knew I should have taken psychology )

Again i just never feel something like, well relating to gender, so I figured I would ask. It just seem like the thing where it seem hard to understand without actually feeling it. I mean don't get me wrong it can be done, just harder. By wait, does that mean all who have a different gender identity than their sex have Gender Dysphoria, or is that only one case?

It depends on what you call dysphoria.

Dysphoria is a spectrum that spans from subjective forms of psychological distress similar in kind to the different forms of depression related to how one's gender is delegitimized, to anxiety crises arising due to said delegitimization, to what people actually understand to be the clinical diagnosis characterized by a distress caused by a discrepancy between bodily self-image and sentiment of being what you assert yourself to be.

It doesn't depend on your gender alignment. You can have gender dysphoria whilst being a trans man or woman, non-binary/genderqueer, identifying as a non-Western gender, identifying as some of the already mentioned, or even whilst being cis (particularly in the case of intersex people - if you, for example, identify as a man and people reared you as a boy, you're generally identified as cis rather than trans, even if you're not ~biological male~). In any place of the aforementioned kinds of dysphoria.

Some people even dislike to use the term gender dysphoria because many of them might feel gender euphoric identity-wise, and since their dissatisfaction is with their sexed characteristics, they use sex dysphoria instead. I think for many trans people, though, the defining sentiment is frustration with both expected gender roles and how their sexed characteristics leads to them being read as one or another kind of person, and how it erases who they truly are. In this case, I think gender dysphoria is adequate, because it refers to a discomfort led primarily by social expectations (i.e. gender) to which we're transgressors and punished/denied for being such.

What I'm NOT saying is that no person would have gender dysphoria - or sex dysphoria - if all of society didn't assume gender and fully respected our self-identities, I don't have how to guess that much less how to argue such, but to me it is obvious that the real main enemy of our psychological balance are the individual abuses we suffer for being trans (what some refer to as microaggressions - in the sense that they're practiced on a small scale, against a fraction of a group, rather than a major scale of said group, like institutionalization or ethnic cleansing campaigns).