NationStates' Transgender Thread

[Nature-Spirits]

that is true and I guess i should of made it more clear instead of just "theres only 2" but what I mean is that you are born a certain way and only surgery can change it. basically im just trying to say that the way you are born is the way you are. and unless you want to pay for surgery to change it thats it. and you can only really change into one of those 2 (or be born with both as you pointed out)

Yes, you are born with a certain sex, and only surgery can change that. We are, believe it or not, actually in agreement there.

Gender, however, is unrelated. Gender is rooted in the brain, not in the genitals.

[Edgy Opinions]

that is true and I guess i should of made it more clear instead of just "theres only 2" but what I mean is that you are born a certain way and only surgery can change it. basically im just trying to say that the way you are born is the way you are. and unless you want to pay for surgery to change it thats it. and you can only really change into one of those 2 (or be born with both as you pointed out)

Why do you associate having a testicular body with having a male inner identity - including a male-like psyche - and a male role in society when obviously there are people to whom these are incompatible, including those who go to the point of having a surgery?

And I said testicular because most surgeries for ovarian folks are about getting rid of breasts, whatever else is largely secondary to most of them. You shouldn't decide what legitimizes people because the truth is that we are always the people we feel ourselves to be.

[Olivaero]

I would like your reasoning as to how there can be more than two physical sexes

Intersex.

that is true and I guess i should of made it more clear instead of just "theres only 2" but what I mean is that you are born a certain way and only surgery can change it. basically im just trying to say that the way you are born is the way you are. and unless you want to pay for surgery to change it thats it. and you can only really change into one of those 2 (or be born with both as you pointed out)[/quote]
I know some one with both breasts and a penis, which one of the two have they changed to do you think?

[Xomic]

I would like your reasoning as to how there can be more than two physical sexes

Intersex.

Except it's pretty clear that intersex isn't a 'sex' so much as it's a birth defect, and occurs in comparable (actually, for the most part, many intersex conditions occur far less frequently than most congenital disorders) rates to birth defects.

There are three physical sexes, male, female, and hermaphrodite, but the final doesn't occur in humans (or, indeed, any mammals, reptiles or birds, as far as I know), and intersexed disorders are not manifestations of hermaphroditism.

[Edgy Opinions]

Except it's pretty clear that intersex isn't a 'sex' so much as it's a birth defect, and occurs in comparable (actually, for the most part, many intersex conditions occur far less frequently than most congenital disorders) rates to birth defects.

There are three physical sexes, male, female, and hermaphrodite, but the final doesn't occur in humans (or, indeed, any mammals, reptiles or birds, as far as I know), and intersexed disorders are not manifestations of hermaphroditism.

Being intersex is not a "defect".

Sexual ambiguity is a form of bodily diversity we all have in some degree, and it fully connects our bodily type to the people with the other set of characteristics because humans present isolated sexual ambiguity in just about every kind of characteristic we can also be argued to have sexual dimorphism.

And yes, there are humans with both gonadal types in their bodies.

So you fail at anatomy once again, and no one was impressed.

[Atomic Energy]

I have a question, and I'm not trolling, I'm wondering if transgenderism (sp?) is compatible with feminism? Is the masculine-feminine "gender expression" not a product of sexism in itself?

[Shaggai]

I have a question, and I'm not trolling, I'm wondering if transgenderism (sp?) is compatible with feminism? Is the masculine-feminine "gender expression" not a product of sexism in itself?

Yes, it is compatible. Not all feminists believe that gender shouldn't exist, and trans-positive gender abolitionism is totally possible.

[Edgy Opinions]

I have a question, and I'm not trolling, I'm wondering if transgenderism (sp?) is compatible with feminism? Is the masculine-feminine "gender expression" not a product of sexism in itself?

Transness/transgenderness. -ism is a consequence of "transsexualism", a pathologizing term.

And yes, it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfeminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Feminism's goal is not to have a different female gender role that is ~more respectful~, but have woman do whatever they please as all others without repression, punishment and abuses legitimized because of that. Sexism as a cultural message is about policing gender, and consequentially about people suffering because of what group they belong to, in the form of having a disenfranchised gender for women, non-binary and non-Western gender people (if you agree that our society enforces male privilege, generally the point of most of feminism), and in the form of having an "abnormal" gender alignment for all non-cis people.

It'd be extremely improper to suggest that trans women are agents of women's oppression, given how they have little choice in having their own selves legitimized, as they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Trans women aren't "male women". Trans women are women with more extreme forms of misogyny aimed at them because they build their own womanhood against what is deemed their appropriate role in society.

Degenerate forms of feminism* often blame DMAB (designated male at birth) trans people who are butch/pre-transition of still having male privilege, so why suddenly are we harming women when we are open to society and lose our status with that? It's just cognitive dissonance. People who hold to these notions often have conspiracy theories about us that make them shunned by the rest of feminism. They're known by the acronym TERF, trans-exclusionary/trans-exterminationist radical feminism/feminist.

* I'm allowed to call it that, but many feminists find that the discussion about which forms of feminism are legitimate is an inter-community discussion that shouldn't have an aggressive or entitled input for those that aren't directly affected by gender-related oppression and have nothing to gain with "understanding" and "policing" "toxicity". (Not that I believe it, but you might find yourself in very complicated situations if you are a guy unsatisfied with and generalizing about radfems even in non-randfem spaces; it happened to me and I'm non-binary.)

In short, just like it's terrible to suggest feminist politics that only make sense for white, middle/upper class and Christian/secular women while leaving brown/black, poor and Muslim women out, for example, without a space of advocacy of their issues and that is sensitive with language that affects them (is racist, classist or Islamophobic feminism really bothering with the oppression that affects all women?), it's terrible to have a feminism that only applies for cis women. (And I'd say it's also terrible that people try to put Western[ized] non-binary people, and even more so people of non-Western genders, as in-between the privileges of women and men; we suffer transphobia, and an additional gender de-legitimization. BUT feminism is mostly concerned with stuff by women for women to discuss women and this is seen as "hijacking" the discussions, except in trans-specific spaces. Very well.)

You will find many trans people unsatisfied with feminism, trans people who call each other out on privileges in accounts with narratives they don't actually experience (e.g. not being a man but being socialized and read as one - without our consent), and trans people who attempt to make limits about who can or cannot identify as trans or who is doing that more appropriately. None of that is related to feminism being specifically transphobic, though, but about different activists having different experiences and viewpoints.

[Grenartia]

They also fail to realize that there are more than two sexes and far more than two genders.

in my opinion there are 2. and there is nothing besides surgery that can change that

And your opinion doesn't invalidate fact. You're just as wrong on this subject as you would be if you tried to say that the Earth is flat.

Also, surgery doesn't "change gender".

[Grenartia]

Well the medical and psychological community say you are wrong. Gender is purely mental whereas sex is purely physical. Furthermore, there are more than two physical sexes.

I'm assuming that also means more than four (trans and inter) then aswell?

"Trans" isn't a sex.

[Grenartia]

I would like your reasoning as to how there can be more than two physical sexes

Intersex.

that is true and I guess i should of made it more clear instead of just "theres only 2" 1. but what I mean is that you are born a certain way and only surgery can change it. 2. basically im just trying to say that the way you are born is the way you are. and unless you want to pay for surgery to change it thats it. and you can only really change into one of those 2 (or be born with both as you pointed out)[/quote]

1. Unless you're talking about lobotomies, you're wrong.

2. Gender isn't an inborn characteristic, and sex has no impact on gender. Your statements literally have no legs to stand on here.

[Nebalon]

Why is there a thread for something that does not exist, I am confused. You are born genetically XY or XX, as far as I am aware, no one can change this. Certainly someone can feel like they're different, but that doesn't physically change who you are, so really there's no such things as transgender.

[Threlizdun]

Why is there a thread for something that does not exist, I am confused. You are born genetically XY or XX, as far as I am aware, no one can change this. Certainly someone can feel like they're different, but that doesn't physically change who you are, so really there's no such things as transgender.

No, you can be born genetically XY, XX, XXX, XXY, XYY, XYYY, XXXY, and other such combinations, and that will determine your physical sex. It has zero bearing on your gender. If your sex and gender match, you're cisgender. If your sex and gender don't match, your transgender. Yes, we exist.

[Nature-Spirits]

... Why is it that so many people post in this thread declaring that we don't exist? Have they not read anything in the OP? Because that's a pretty good place to start.

Don't bother with Nebalon, though. He (?) just posted in another thread that he thinks poor people deserve to die because they don't contribute anything to society.

[Imyoji]

... Why is it that so many people post in this thread declaring that we don't exist?

A combination of ignorance to psychological evidence and refusal to accept things outside of the norm. That, is a simplified answer.

Also, gender fluidity is intriguing... In a good way of course. Anyone care to explain a bit about it?

[Nebalon]

Why is there a thread for something that does not exist, I am confused. You are born genetically XY or XX, as far as I am aware, no one can change this. Certainly someone can feel like they're different, but that doesn't physically change who you are, so really there's no such things as transgender.

No, you can be born genetically XY, XX, XXX, XXY, XYY, XYYY, XXXY, and other such combinations, and that will determine your physical sex. It has zero bearing on your gender. If your sex and gender match, you're cisgender. If your sex and gender don't match, your transgender. Yes, we exist.

I see, but do not understand, however I will concede that such people experience these things (Feelings?).

[Edgy Opinions]

Threlizdun most likely knows all that, I'm adding to her reply to Nebalon.

No, you can be born genetically XY, XX, XXX, XXY, XYY, XYYY, XXXY, and other such combinations, and that will determine your physical sex. It has zero bearing on your gender. If your sex and gender match, you're cisgender. If your sex and gender don't match, your transgender. Yes, we exist.

There's also that many of those chromosome combinations lead to statistically atypical but widely prevalent and normal results because of developmental mistakes by the gravid's womb or genetic mutations, so that you will get XY people with ovaries and normal ovarian anatomic development, and XX people with testes and normal testicular anatomic development, and all in-between forms.

Gender is not an inborn trait, you need to know what words and concepts like woman or man are (something newborns and babies don't) in order to put yourself as a part of them, or to not do so.

I'd say that, since our gender comes much after our sex, they have only tentative influence upon each other and the psychological decisive factor for our forming identity is how we're socialized is not so much our sex, but our birth gender designation. After all to decide whether someone is dyadic or intersex can be very murky, and intersex people might also be trans or cis.

All in all, it's a bit foolish to argue that something about anatomy is synonymous with classifications in how to divide human society and where you fit.

[Threlizdun]

No, you can be born genetically XY, XX, XXX, XXY, XYY, XYYY, XXXY, and other such combinations, and that will determine your physical sex. It has zero bearing on your gender. If your sex and gender match, you're cisgender. If your sex and gender don't match, your transgender. Yes, we exist.

I see, but do not understand, however I will concede that such people experience these things (Feelings?).

Reading the OP should help

[Nature-Spirits]

... Why is it that so many people post in this thread declaring that we don't exist?

A combination of ignorance to psychological evidence and refusal to accept things outside of the norm. That, is a simplified answer.

Also, gender fluidity is intriguing... In a good way of course. Anyone care to explain a bit about it?

I'll write up a post explaining genderfluidity in a bit. Beware, it'll likely be a fairly long post.

No, you can be born genetically XY, XX, XXX, XXY, XYY, XYYY, XXXY, and other such combinations, and that will determine your physical sex. It has zero bearing on your gender. If your sex and gender match, you're cisgender. If your sex and gender don't match, your transgender. Yes, we exist.

I see, but do not understand, however I will concede that such people experience these things (Feelings?).

The word you're looking for is gender. And almost all people experience it, not just transgender people.

[Imyoji]

A combination of ignorance to psychological evidence and refusal to accept things outside of the norm. That, is a simplified answer.

Also, gender fluidity is intriguing... In a good way of course. Anyone care to explain a bit about it?

I'll write up a post explaining genderfluidity in a bit. Beware, it'll likely be a fairly long post.

Bless your beautiful soul. Take your time.

[Threlizdun]

No, you can be born genetically XY, XX, XXX, XXY, XYY, XYYY, XXXY, and other such combinations, and that will determine your physical sex. It has zero bearing on your gender. If your sex and gender match, you're cisgender. If your sex and gender don't match, your transgender. Yes, we exist.

I see, but do not understand, however I will concede that such people experience these things (Feelings?).

Another good question to ask is how you would feel if tomorrow you woke up and had the body of a member of a different sex. You have lived your whole life as one sex, and now are in this foreign body. Would you be comfortable with that? Would you feel alright, or would you feel wrong in a way? What if people started referring to you with different pronouns, and when you informed them that those weren't correct and that this body doesn't represent who you truly are they just laughed at you or called you a freak?

[Edgy Opinions]

... Why is it that so many people post in this thread declaring that we don't exist?

A combination of ignorance to psychological evidence and refusal to accept things outside of the norm. That, is a simplified answer.

Also, gender fluidity is intriguing... In a good way of course. Anyone care to explain a bit about it?

Do you know when we change moods or emotions? To me genderfluidity is similar.

My standard "mood" is to have myself and my present and past psyches as my sole reference, and to view myself as fully unique and distinguished from all other people. Since my gender sentiment is one of plenary individuality and blurry non-classification under all those other identities and roles, I think that the label that fits the most is neutral. Admittedly butch if we are to divide non-binary and other minority orientation/gender alignment people like that, but I'm far from identifying as male in any relevant way.

Nevertheless, when I interact with someone in a manner that I empathize with them, suddenly an array of new positions to find myself in reference to others is created, and I end up identifying with the gender that surrounds me. (Or at least the theoretical gender to do so.) Since my gender has such focus on who other people are, and which kind of people they came to identify as, it's most similar to empathy and affection, but the whole chameleon-like process feels about 40-60% "colder" than these.

Sometimes, it feels like that normal you has your gender in alpha (neutral state), then suddenly you meet somebody, and an anthropomorphized version of your gender feels like it's in a very minimalistic garden in a flashy city. You stop interacting with that person, and your gender's sentiment about it all starts to becomes blurry, like a yellow photo. Suddenly you are dealing with someone else, and you go to some other place. Many people get angry with those who identify their gender as related to aesthetics, but I don't find it so so so absurd. After all, gender is merely a referential for who you are and how other kinds of people affect you. Femininity and masculinity in our culture have roles that imply plenty of aesthetics in them, and depending on how they influenced you, it's not much different for non-binary genders. The feel can be compared to different neighborhoods of a same megalopolis, connected by confusing public transit lines.

This is the most meaningful description I can give this fast, and it's very different from other genderfluid folks.

Plenty of non-binary folks have genderfluidity, mine is just its own type. Their experience might not be as lucid/colorful (honestly, I'm not so conscious of my gender as to fully imagine myself exploring a city, it just is the experience that could be most related in perception). Nature-Spirits described "feeling like" different things, being put on certain moods, and it's different from me, in that I don't have very perceptible mood/personality alterations, but am put with different gazes upon others and myself.

[Edgy Opinions]

I'll write up a post explaining genderfluidity in a bit. Beware, it'll likely be a fairly long post.

Bless your beautiful soul. Take your time.

Now I'm wondering how different will be their description. :v

[Imyoji]

Bless your beautiful soul. Take your time.

Now I'm wondering how different will be their description. :v

Having read your take on genderfluidity, I am somewhat expecting such a state to be somewhat subjective and dependent on who is experiencing it. It seems simple but also somewhat complex.

For some odd reason when I was reading your take on genderfluidity I thought of quantum computing and quantum bits. It seems to be an acceptance kind of thing, accepting oneself as neither, but also all. Eh. I must be sleepy too

[-Ebola-]

Why is there a thread for something that does not exist, I am confused. You are born genetically XY or XX, as far as I am aware, no one can change this. Certainly someone can feel like they're different, but that doesn't physically change who you are, so really there's no such things as transgender.

DNA is overrated.

I often see people differently from the way you guys see each other because I am infecting cells rather than looking at people or listening to them -- but even from my point of view, people that are genetically XY can be female and people that are genetically XX can be male. If you think sex chromosomes are the be all and end all of who is male and who is female, I can only conclude that you are a virus like HIV that likes to tamper with DNA or you have an irrationally transphobic worldview.