NationStates' Transgender Thread

[Nature-Spirits]

So, my mom noticed that I've been shaving my legs again, and started telling me not to do it. Again. She claims that if she could do it all over again, she wouldn't, because according to her, the hair grows in darker (though it seems to me that exposure to sunlight would lighten it) and coarser (this is demonstrably false; it just looks that way because the hairs have a flat tip due to being cut, and I'm pretty sure that that effect wouldn't be permanent). She also said that "the Europeans don't shave their legs" -- which in many cases is true, but I don't see why that means I shouldn't. Shouldn't I do what makes me most comfortable? The fact is, my legs -- while not super hairy -- are still pretty hairy, and that means that I don't like showing them off. I rarely wear shorts, and when I wear a skirt, I almost always wear tights underneath, because I feel uncomfortable showing off my bare legs when they're hairy.

Plus, I really like the feel of hairless skin.

I like the feeling of shaved legs too, but got shamed by my class for doing so. Do what you want.

That's sad to hear. Thanks.

I can't...

So, my mom noticed that I've been shaving my legs again, and started telling me not to do it. Again. She claims that if she could do it all over again, she wouldn't, because according to her, the hair grows in darker (though it seems to me that exposure to sunlight would lighten it) and coarser (this is demonstrably false; it just looks that way because the hairs have a flat tip due to being cut, and I'm pretty sure that that effect wouldn't be permanent). She also said that "the Europeans don't shave their legs" -- which in many cases is true, but I don't see why that means I shouldn't. Shouldn't I do what makes me most comfortable? The fact is, my legs -- while not super hairy -- are still pretty hairy, and that means that I don't like showing them off. I rarely wear shorts, and when I wear a skirt, I almost always wear tights underneath, because I feel uncomfortable showing off my bare legs when they're hairy.

Plus, I really like the feel of hairless skin.

1. I plan on waxing the back of my hips and legs, since it feels like I have to contort myself to shave there.

2. No idea why she would say that Europeans don't shave their legs. Even if true, why does it have any bearing on what you do?

1. Waxing seems kind of painful, but I've considered it myself, too.

2. That's pretty much my thought on the matter.

My philosophy: refer to someone born with the male sex as "he" and the female sex as "she." if they grow older and tell me they're actually a he, she, or neither, I'll refer to them as that. I can't see what's hard about it.

Yeah, I agree... Then you have the jarring ones like myself who hid for years pretending to be hypermasculine trying to hide the reality. It failed to work... I think the best options I would utilize is a gendered name with a unisex middle.

That reminds me of a person I once met. She's a cis girl, but her mom gave her a masculine middle name in case she turned out to be a trans guy. Pretty cool.

How hurtful is it to misgender someone? I know this varies depending on whom you ask, but the thought came to me that making a trans woman/man go into a martial arts tournament divided by gender as the gender they used to be(or anything which is separated by gender) could be a very unhappy experience. It's not only not affirming their lifestyle choice, but it's very hard to argue that the purpose of that is to do anything other than be insulting.

Well, as you said, it depends on the person. For me.... Hm. Except when I actually am a guy, I generally don't like being referred to as male, and although I can deal with it, repetition does wear me down. Occasionally, if it's been happening a lot in a short period of time, and especially if I have other stressors going on at the same time, I end up in a really bad place.

That said, it bothers me more when I'm misgendered by someone who knows about my gender than if I'm misgendered by someone who doesn't know. I tend to feel dysphoria either way, but if the person knows, it feels like a personal insult on top of that. If they don't know, I forgive them no problem, even though it does hurt.

[American Imperial Union]

That hairless skin feeling is divine.

Oh hell yes.


How hurtful is it to misgender someone? I know this varies depending on whom you ask, but the thought came to me that making a trans woman/man go into a martial arts tournament divided by gender as the gender they used to be(or anything which is separated by gender) could be a very unhappy experience. It's not only not affirming their lifestyle choice, but it's very hard to argue that the purpose of that is to do anything other than be insulting.

Well im not transgender but id imagine like being called a girl and people refusing to refer to you by the gender you identify as. I don't know about you but if everybody started calling me a girl and questioning my manhood I would be really upset by that.

[The Heart of Hypatia]

the private sector is extortionate

Honestly I have had mixed experience with private treatment in the UK, but the doctor I am seeing now (the second one I tried) has been fantastic. It costs a decent amount of money, but I wouldn't describe it as extortionate, in fact most of my expense comes from travel costs when I go to my clinic. I get my prescription and blood tests on the NHS so that helps.

[Hetalia Dakota 2 II]

the private sector is extortionate

Honestly I have had mixed experience with private treatment in the UK, but the doctor I am seeing now (the second one I tried) has been fantastic. It costs a decent amount of money, but I wouldn't describe it as extortionate, in fact most of my expense comes from travel costs when I go to my clinic. I get my prescription and blood tests on the NHS so that helps.

We really don't have a choice Stateside.

[The Serbian Empire]

That hairless skin feeling is divine.

Oh hell yes.


How hurtful is it to misgender someone? I know this varies depending on whom you ask, but the thought came to me that making a trans woman/man go into a martial arts tournament divided by gender as the gender they used to be(or anything which is separated by gender) could be a very unhappy experience. It's not only not affirming their lifestyle choice, but it's very hard to argue that the purpose of that is to do anything other than be insulting.

For me, it all depends on if I'm presenting at the time and if I've remembered to shave recently. If I'm hairy (this happens when I'm working and studying at the same time and not given enough privacy to shave my legs and what not) and dressed as male then the dysphoria may be increased, but I expect to be gendered as male no matter how feminine I speak or behave because my body says male. If I'm presenting as female and shaved while behaving feminine and sounding it then it hurts a bit more.

[The Grey Wolf]

Arguing with transphobes, I was recently informed I can never be fully female because I can't produce eggs or have a womb.

I'm beginning to think this is actually what they believe about women.

[Wurtemburg-Baden]

[quote="The Grey Wolf";p="25812597"]Arguing with transphobes, I was recently informed I can never be fully female because I can't produce eggs or have a womb.

I'm beginning to [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=121eLouFoFg&feature=youtu.be&t=7s]think this is actually what they believe about women[/
I like Trolling Transphobic Forums.

[The Serbian Empire]

Arguing with transphobes, I was recently informed I can never be fully female because I can't produce eggs or have a womb.

I'm beginning to think this is actually what they believe about women.

Makes me want to make wombs and eggs through artificial means in the name of science!

[Dyrrachium]

Arguing with transphobes, I was recently informed I can never be fully female because I can't produce eggs or have a womb.

I'm beginning to think this is actually what they believe about women.

Makes me want to make wombs and eggs through artificial means in the name of science!

but that would mean periods.. icky.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Not being able to have children is an upgrade because children are dreadful.

Transphobes are jealous because they realize they're an inferior form of life and can't deal with it.

[Dyrrachium]

Not being able to have children is an upgrade because children are dreadful.

Transphobes are jealous because they realize they're an inferior form of life and can't deal with it.

that's how tumblr starts.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Not being able to have children is an upgrade because children are dreadful.

Transphobes are jealous because they realize they're an inferior form of life and can't deal with it.

that's how tumblr starts.

It's not, because DI is not a time-traveller. Maybe if I learn the legendary Chronos Fist technique.

[The Grey Wolf]

Not being able to have children is an upgrade because children are dreadful.

Transphobes are jealous because they realize they're an inferior form of life and can't deal with it.

I've wanted children for awhile, and recently found out that I like men... a lot. A whole lot more than I originally thought. Whether or not I have children now depends on whether I marry a woman or a man.

Well, they do feel the need to bitch at us about how we're "deceiving" them. There's an inferiority complex and at least a little bit of homophobia there.

[AiliailiA]

Not being able to have children is an upgrade because children are dreadful.

Children steal your life. Then, in the ultimate insult, they attend your funeral.

[The Grey Wolf]

Not being able to have children is an upgrade because children are dreadful.

Children steal your life. Then, in the ultimate insult, they attend your funeral.

I'm not sure most people would complain about having death stolen from them.

[Farnhamia]

Not being able to have children is an upgrade because children are dreadful.

Children steal your life. Then, in the ultimate insult, they attend your funeral.

No, the insult is, they arrange your funeral. If I'm dead, I don't much care who comes to the services.

[Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502]

Oh hell yes.


How hurtful is it to misgender someone? I know this varies depending on whom you ask, but the thought came to me that making a trans woman/man go into a martial arts tournament divided by gender as the gender they used to be(or anything which is separated by gender) could be a very unhappy experience. It's not only not affirming their lifestyle choice, but it's very hard to argue that the purpose of that is to do anything other than be insulting.

For me, it all depends on if I'm presenting at the time and if I've remembered to shave recently. If I'm hairy (this happens when I'm working and studying at the same time and not given enough privacy to shave my legs and what not) and dressed as male then the dysphoria may be increased, but I expect to be gendered as male no matter how feminine I speak or behave because my body says male. If I'm presenting as female and shaved while behaving feminine and sounding it then it hurts a bit more.

I personally hate the feeling of body hair so much it hurts. I only wear long pants, really, so I'm the only one who even notices, but if I have to go to work I will literally wear my tall rugby socks so I don't have the feeling of my leg hair against my pants. That feeling makes me want to burn the first layer of skin off.

[American Imperial Union]

Arguing with transphobes, I was recently informed I can never be fully female because I can't produce eggs or have a womb.

I'm beginning to think this is actually what they believe about women.

I think the words bigot and "-phobe"(E.g homophobe, transphobic) are not fair or adequate descriptions. Overused and wrongly applied.

Though many people who oppose the idea of transsexuals or transsexuals being a "real" male/female might be transphobic, not all are. Trans phobia is a fear, disliking or disagreeing with it doesn't make it a phobia.

Bigotry is like wise over used. Not agreeing with transsexuals doesn't make you intolerant of their views.

Words matter and these two terms are just ad hominem attacks against those who disagree with you. They provide no real substance to any argument and only serve to deligitimize the validity of the other persons opinion /argument.

[Vassenor]

Arguing with transphobes, I was recently informed I can never be fully female because I can't produce eggs or have a womb.

I'm beginning to think this is actually what they believe about women.

I think the words bigot and "-phobe"(E.g homophobe, transphobic) are not fair or adequate descriptions. Overused and wrongly applied.

Though many people who oppose the idea of transsexuals or transsexuals being a "real" male/female might be transphobic, not all are. Trans phobia is a fear, disliking or disagreeing with it doesn't make it a phobia.

Bigotry is like wise over used. Not agreeing with transsexuals doesn't make you intolerant of their views.

Words matter and these two terms are just ad hominem attacks against those who disagree with you. They provide no real substance to any argument and only serve to deligitimize the validity of the other persons opinion /argument.

At what point does "I don't think you count as a person because [X REASON]" become a legitimate argument?

[American Imperial Union]

...

At what point does "I don't think you count as a person because [X REASON]" become a legitimate argument?

I don't think there is such a thing as an "illegitimate argument". It might be a wrong argument.

Besides, although they may exist just by sheer size of the demographic that disagrees with transsexuals, I don't think any of them have ever argued that transsexuals weren't people. They simply argue that perhaps gender can change but sex cannot. In paraphrasing of course.

This has nothing to do with whether someone is human or not. Only whether or not they are female/male.
We can safely say the days of anybody be considered only 3/5 a human are over.

[Dyrrachium]

At what point does "I don't think you count as a person because [X REASON]" become a legitimate argument?

I don't think there is such a thing as an "illegitimate argument". It might be a wrong argument.

Besides, although they may exist just by sheer size of the demographic that disagrees with transsexuals, I don't think any of them have ever argued that transsexuals weren't people. They simply argue that perhaps gender can change but sex cannot. In paraphrasing of course.

This has nothing to do with whether someone is human or not. Only whether or not they are female/male.
We can safely say the days of anybody be considered only 3/5 a human are over.

Almost all transphobes (and yes I'm using that term, because that's the term, and the phobe suffix means fear of OR repulsion to) want to gatekeep transgender people from transitioning, attack them, out them and refuse to accept their gender, regardless of sex.

[American Imperial Union]

I don't think there is such a thing as an "illegitimate argument". It might be a wrong argument.

Besides, although they may exist just by sheer size of the demographic that disagrees with transsexuals, I don't think any of them have ever argued that transsexuals weren't people. They simply argue that perhaps gender can change but sex cannot. In paraphrasing of course.

This has nothing to do with whether someone is human or not. Only whether or not they are female/male.
We can safely say the days of anybody be considered only 3/5 a human are over.

Almost all transphobes (and yes I'm using that term, because that's the term, and the phobe suffix means fear of OR repulsion to) want to gatekeep transgender people from transitioning, attack them, out them and refuse to accept their gender, regardless of sex.

How do you "gatekeep" someone? I've always understood phobe to mean fear of not repulsion for. If I'm repulsed by l bad smells, I don't think that reaches the level of phobia. Excuse the analogy.

So they might refuse to accept their gender, which is their right. You can refuse that the moon exists, if you want. I think the thing about (some) homosexuals and transsexuals is that they don't seek tolerance. They seek and enforce acceptance. I don't think in a free society that anyone will have complete acceptance by everybody all the time.

[Nature-Spirits]

Arguing with transphobes, I was recently informed I can never be fully female because I can't produce eggs or have a womb.

I'm beginning to think this is actually what they believe about women.

I think the words bigot and "-phobe"(E.g homophobe, transphobic) are not fair or adequate descriptions. Overused and wrongly applied.

Though many people who oppose the idea of transsexuals or transsexuals being a "real" male/female might be transphobic, not all are. Trans phobia is a fear, disliking or disagreeing with it doesn't make it a phobia.

Bigotry is like wise over used. Not agreeing with transsexuals doesn't make you intolerant of their views.

Words matter and these two terms are just ad hominem attacks against those who disagree with you. They provide no real substance to any argument and only serve to deligitimize the validity of the other persons opinion /argument.

While, originally, the -phobia suffix does derive from the Greek φόβος phobos "fear", its meaning in many modern languages (including English) has expanded beyond that to indicate hate, dislike, contempt, etc. alongside its original meaning. This is a perfectly valid linguistic phenomenon, and happens all the time in languages (e.g. the Modern English word "cloud" derives from an Old English word meaning "boulder" or "hill", among other things, while the Modern English word "sky" derives from an Old Norse word meaning "cloud").

So, yes, disliking trans people simply for being transgender or "disagreeing" with their genders does, indeed, make someone transphobic.

At what point does "I don't think you count as a person because [X REASON]" become a legitimate argument?

I don't think there is such a thing as an "illegitimate argument". It might be a wrong argument.

Besides, although they may exist just by sheer size of the demographic that disagrees with transsexuals, I don't think any of them have ever argued that transsexuals weren't people. They simply argue that perhaps gender can change but sex cannot. In paraphrasing of course.

This has nothing to do with whether someone is human or not. Only whether or not they are female/male.
We can safely say the days of anybody be considered only 3/5 a human are over.

Validity =/= correctness. Someone can put forward a valid, yet incorrect argument; one can equally put forth an invalid, yet correct argument. It's an important distinction.

There are, indeed, many transphobes who, although it may not be a conscious thought, believe that trans people are not, in fact, people -- at least, not on the same level as cisgender (nontrans) people. We can see this from the fact that transgender people are victims of abuse, violence, murder, etc. at disproportionately high rates -- cis people commit violence against trans people because they do not view them as having a right to life/security, simply because they are trans.

[Nature-Spirits]

Almost all transphobes (and yes I'm using that term, because that's the term, and the phobe suffix means fear of OR repulsion to) want to gatekeep transgender people from transitioning, attack them, out them and refuse to accept their gender, regardless of sex.

How do you "gatekeep" someone?

"Gatekeeping" is a term used in the trans community to refer to the act of preventing trans people from transitioning. It is often used of medical professionals who require that trans people meet certain specific requirements in order to be "really" trans and thus to deserve to transition.

[Vassenor]

How do you "gatekeep" someone?

"Gatekeeping" is a term used in the trans community to refer to the act of preventing trans people from transitioning. It is often used of medical professionals who require that trans people meet certain specific requirements in order to be "really" trans and thus to deserve to transition.

Said specific requirements often involve adopting stereotypical behaviour and other such things.