'PEGIDA' Anti-Islam protests

[Imperializt Russia]

I can only assume you're arguing this so viscerally to defend the "I'm not racist but" "defence".

I certainly couldn't care less if someone considers me racist, so no, I am not defending myself. I am clarifying the clear impossibility of racism vis-a-vis a religion.

Then why do you care?

[Laerod]

I can only assume you're arguing this so viscerally to defend the "I'm not racist but" "defence".

I certainly couldn't care less if someone considers me racist, so no, I am not defending myself. I am clarifying the clear impossibility of racism vis-a-vis a religion.

Muddling, actually. It's been pointed out why islamophobia usually is racist despite claiming to target a faith rather than phenotypes. You've been dancing around ignoring the posts that pointed this out.

[Olerand]

I certainly couldn't care less if someone considers me racist, so no, I am not defending myself. I am clarifying the clear impossibility of racism vis-a-vis a religion.

Then why do you care?

I don't, I want to clarify that being racist vis-a-vis a religion is impossible. I don't have to be personally involved in anything to want to clarify a misconception.

[Edgy Opinions]

Your English is borderline incomprehensible. As for Western society, I never claimed it was perfect, nor amazing. Which doesn't mean I'm willing to replace it with something worse.

European Muslims, or at least French Muslims, need to integrate and accept modern secular French society, as the Catholics and Jews have. Otherwise, they can go live their fantasy in London, Mecca, or Singapore.

And you think ~integration~ and ~acceptance~ is something that happens within a single year?

No, it needs to be a lifelong narrative about where they belong, and how they belong there. And they can't think of their Other as the outsiders and their queer ways.

It's not the immigrants' failure.

[Olerand]

I certainly couldn't care less if someone considers me racist, so no, I am not defending myself. I am clarifying the clear impossibility of racism vis-a-vis a religion.

Muddling, actually. It's been pointed out why islamophobia usually is racist despite claiming to target a faith rather than phenotypes. You've been dancing around ignoring the posts that pointed this out.

And I say racism is:
-the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
or
-prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Religion doesn't qualify. One will have to find another word then.

[Imperializt Russia]

Then why do you care?

I don't, I want to clarify that being racist vis-a-vis a religion is impossible. I don't have to be personally involved in anything to want to clarify a misconception.

It's racism with a different veneer. It's the exact same awful arguments set upon a different target on a slightly different characteristic.

Targeting a person for the perceived culture of their religion achieves the exact same end-point as targeting them for the perceived culture of the state they hail from.

[Olerand]

Your English is borderline incomprehensible. As for Western society, I never claimed it was perfect, nor amazing. Which doesn't mean I'm willing to replace it with something worse.

European Muslims, or at least French Muslims, need to integrate and accept modern secular French society, as the Catholics and Jews have. Otherwise, they can go live their fantasy in London, Mecca, or Singapore.

And you think ~integration~ and ~acceptance~ is something that happens within a single year?

No, it needs to be a lifelong narrative about where they belong, and how they belong there. And they can't think of their Other as the outsiders and their queer ways.

It's not the immigrants' failure.

Oh? The Muslim community of France, which first started exhibiting problems in integration with the second generation in the 1980s have had a "single year"? 35 isn't enough?

It most certainly is. They choose to reject separation of State and Religion; equality of the sexes; or acceptance of homosexuals, amongst other societal issues. Nobody made them, they chose their beliefs.

[Olerand]

I don't, I want to clarify that being racist vis-a-vis a religion is impossible. I don't have to be personally involved in anything to want to clarify a misconception.

It's racism with a different veneer. It's the exact same awful arguments set upon a different target on a slightly different characteristic.

Targeting a person for the perceived culture of their religion achieves the exact same end-point as targeting them for the perceived culture of the state they hail from.

No, it literally, isn't. It is impossible to be racist against anything but a race. Islam is not a race.

[Edgy Opinions]

Oh? The Muslim community of France, which first started exhibiting problems in integration with the second generation in the 1980s have had a "single year"? 35 isn't enough?

It most certainly is. They choose to reject separation of State and Religion; equality of the sexes; or acceptance of homosexuals, amongst other societal issues. Nobody made them, they chose their beliefs.

Funny how you say that as if French society wasn't Catholic-descended, or [much like any other capitalist society] structurally sexist and heterosexist.

[Laerod]

Muddling, actually. It's been pointed out why islamophobia usually is racist despite claiming to target a faith rather than phenotypes. You've been dancing around ignoring the posts that pointed this out.

And I say racism is:
-the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
or
-prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Religion doesn't qualify. One will have to find another word then.

And Islamophobia has and continues to meet that criterion. That racism is bad has been so deeply ingrained into society that racists tend to come up with excuses to justify their racism outwardly and to themselves without having to call a spade a spade.

[Olerand]

Oh? The Muslim community of France, which first started exhibiting problems in integration with the second generation in the 1980s have had a "single year"? 35 isn't enough?

It most certainly is. They choose to reject separation of State and Religion; equality of the sexes; or acceptance of homosexuals, amongst other societal issues. Nobody made them, they chose their beliefs.

Funny how you say that as if French society wasn't Catholic-descended, or [much like any other capitalist society] structurally sexist and heterosexist.

I keep getting this criticism from South American Marxists. As if I cared. French society is what it is, you integrate, or find a more suitable alternative.

[Imperializt Russia]

It's racism with a different veneer. It's the exact same awful arguments set upon a different target on a slightly different characteristic.

Targeting a person for the perceived culture of their religion achieves the exact same end-point as targeting them for the perceived culture of the state they hail from.

No, it literally, isn't. It is impossible to be racist against anything but a race. Islam is not a race.

But it is a culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Cultural_racism

"Cultural racism", which I hope you'll agree is a form of racism, seems to fit "islamophobia" to a T.

[Olerand]

And I say racism is:
-the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
or
-prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Religion doesn't qualify. One will have to find another word then.

And Islamophobia has and continues to meet that criterion. That racism is bad has been so deeply ingrained into society that racists tend to come up with excuses to justify their racism outwardly and to themselves without having to call a spade a spade.

Islam remains not a race.

[Olerand]

No, it literally, isn't. It is impossible to be racist against anything but a race. Islam is not a race.

But it is a culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Cultural_racism

"Cultural racism", which I hope you'll agree is a form of racism, seems to fit "islamophobia" to a T.

No, I accept the concept but not the appellation. Racism applies to races, and this is a lazy way describe beliefs of cultural superiority.

[Laerod]

And Islamophobia has and continues to meet that criterion. That racism is bad has been so deeply ingrained into society that racists tend to come up with excuses to justify their racism outwardly and to themselves without having to call a spade a spade.

Islam remains not a race.

Your statement remains irrelevant.

[The Alma Mater]

It's racism with a different veneer. It's the exact same awful arguments set upon a different target on a slightly different characteristic.

Targeting a person for the perceived culture of their religion achieves the exact same end-point as targeting them for the perceived culture of the state they hail from.

No, it literally, isn't. It is impossible to be racist against anything but a race. Islam is not a race.

Of course, "race" is a rather meaningless term with no basis in biology and a rather vague political definition.

[Edgy Opinions]

Funny how you say that as if French society wasn't Catholic-descended, or [much like any other capitalist society] structurally sexist and heterosexist.

I keep getting this criticism from South American Marxists. As if I cared. French society is what it is, you integrate, or find a more suitable alternative.

So the people with such ~incompatible values~ aren't foreign monster fundies, just the more backward people of your own society acting according to how the morals that surround them influence them to and how these morals influence their thinking as well.

A visible result of neoliberal capitalism and how class inequality isolates one from education and the consequential cultural advancement.

If you are going to request their exile, then find a new home for the conservative Catholic bigots too.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

The anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe needs to end, it's like the whole continent is a xenophobic cesspool.

[Edgy Opinions]

No, I accept the concept but not the appellation. Racism applies to races, and this is a lazy way describe beliefs of cultural superiority.

Cultural superiority might and DOES intersect with white supremacy.

A Catholic Eastern European might not be seen as being on the same level of threat as a brown Muslim, even though they might sport the same conservative, zealous values and you might have a higher risk of sudden mass migration of similar people on the earlier group.

[Laerod]

The anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe needs to end, it's like the whole continent is a xenophobic cesspool.

Dresden is practically the only place where the protesters weren't outnumbered by counter-protesters. I find your assertion more than inaccurate.

[Imperializt Russia]

But it is a culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Cultural_racism

"Cultural racism", which I hope you'll agree is a form of racism, seems to fit "islamophobia" to a T.

No, I accept the concept but not the appellation. Racism applies to races, and this is a lazy way describe beliefs of cultural superiority.

It's very accurately described under the umbrella of "racism", because it's the same exact argument.

Of course as pointed out by another poster, race is just a social construct anyway, it doesn't mean anything useful.

[The Alma Mater]

The anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe needs to end, it's like the whole continent is a xenophobic cesspool.

As long as muslims keep featuring so incredibly prominently in crime statistics that is not going to happen. Old ladies will still hold their purses a little tighter whenever the see Ahmed approach.

[Olerand]

Islam remains not a race.

Your statement remains irrelevant.

You highlighted a part of the definition, I provided evidence as to why that doesn't fit your assumption. Racism still cannot apply to a religion.

I keep getting this criticism from South American Marxists. As if I cared. French society is what it is, you integrate, or find a more suitable alternative.

So the people with such ~incompatible values~ aren't foreign monster fundies, just the more backward people of your own society acting according to how the morals that surround them influence them to and how these morals influence their thinking as well.

A visible result of neoliberal capitalism and how class inequality isolates one from education and the consequential cultural advancement.

If you are going to request their exile, then find a new home for the conservative Catholic bigots too.

If one does not like overly conservative, oppressive(as compared to who? Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan? America? Brazil?) French society, then fortunately, emigration from France is perfectly legal.

Poland. I am a strong supporter of the emigration of Catholics who cannot accept the fall of the monarchy and the end of the authority of the Church to Poland, bastion of conservative Catholicism.

[Olerand]

No, I accept the concept but not the appellation. Racism applies to races, and this is a lazy way describe beliefs of cultural superiority.

Cultural superiority might and DOES intersect with white supremacy.

A Catholic Eastern European might not be seen as being on the same level of threat as a brown Muslim, even though they might sport the same conservative, zealous values and you might have a higher risk of sudden mass migration of similar people on the earlier group.

Only because we don't have as many reactionary Eastern Europeans around. If they made up 5% of the population, at least, and are constantly increasing, I would definitely have a problem with them too.

[Laerod]

Your statement remains irrelevant.

You highlighted a part of the definition, I provided evidence as to why that doesn't fit your assumption. Racism still cannot apply to a religion.

You repeated an irrelevant claim. Whether islam is a race is (hilariously enough) immaterial to the discussion of whether islamophobia is racist. I've provided real evidence (not the repetition of stock phrases) that hatred of muslims has little if anything to do with the religion of a person and more with their appearance. As such, while islamophobes claim that religion is their primary concern, this claim is not actually true.