'PEGIDA' Anti-Islam protests

[Laerod]

I hear definite racists such as the NPD argue differently.

And yet, no one involved in the discussion here is of the NPD. Neither is the leadership, as much as there is one, of PEGIDA.
Some of its members certainly are, however.

*raises eyebrow at the moving goalposts*

[Olerand]

And yet, no one involved in the discussion here is of the NPD. Neither is the leadership, as much as there is one, of PEGIDA.
Some of its members certainly are, however.

*raises eyebrow at the moving goalposts*

What are they? Criticism of Islam is not racism. The NPD is racist. Yet, the leadership of the PEGIDA movement is not a part of the NPD. The PEGIDA movement is vocally against Islam, and does not mention race. What's ambivalent about this?

[Edgy Opinions]

What are they? Criticism of Islam is not racism.

Bicha, melhore.

What does this hyped "criticism of Islam" accomplish besides more xenophobia and attrition?

[Olerand]

What are they? Criticism of Islam is not racism.

Bicha, melhore.

What does this hyped "criticism of Islam" accomplish besides more xenophobia and attrition?

Actual criticism of a religion that treats women, gays, and apostates in a way that would elicit a New Left Liberal crusade had it been associated to the Catholic Church, the Baptist Convention, or the Church of Latter Day Saints.

And, hopefully, a limiting of immigration of unintegrated and unwilling to integrate immigrants to Europe, and stronger focus on integration as the sole possible outcome of immigration.

I don't know much of the PEGIDA movement, and I don't know what they are specifically calling for; but I know that's what my criticism of Islam causes.

[Edgy Opinions]

Actual criticism of a religion that treats women, gays, and apostates in a way that would elicit a New Left Liberal crusade had it been associated to the Catholic Church, the Baptist Convention, or the Church of Latter Day Saints.

And, hopefully, a limiting of immigration of unintegrated and unwilling to integrate immigrants to Europe, and stronger focus on integration as the sole possible outcome of immigration.

I don't know much of the PEGIDA movement, and I don't know what they are specifically calling for; but I know that's what my criticism of Islam causes.

What you cited has little to do with the content of the religion itself, but how these peoples were used to obey it, think uncritically about authority and social customs, and which position of structural and institutional power the religion fueled - in name - in their native countries.

Let me remember you that women voted in the Muslim world many more centuries than they did in Western ones, and that Christianity was just as complicit in fulfilling these duties in our society as what Islam represents in theirs now.

You don't accomplish anything blaming the FAITH or the FOLLOWERS.

[Laerod]

*raises eyebrow at the moving goalposts*

What are they? Criticism of Islam is not racism. The NPD is racist. Yet, the leadership of the PEGIDA movement is not a part of the NPD. The PEGIDA movement is vocally against Islam, and does not mention race. What's ambivalent about this?

I've already pointed out why it was. What you've been posting afterwards is some weirdly slippery argument that slides wherever it wants.

[Olerand]

What you cited has little to do with the content of the religion itself, but how these peoples were used to obey it, think uncritically about authority and social customs, and which position of structural and institutional power the religion fueled - in name - in their native countries.

Let me remember you that women voted in the Muslim world many more centuries than they did in Western ones, and that Christianity was just as complicit in fulfilling these duties in our society as what Islam represents in theirs now.

You don't accomplish anything blaming the FAITH or the FOLLOWERS.

No, it does. Explicitly. The Koran is a perfidious book, like the Bible and Torah, written by a bunch of misogynistic, homophobic, slavery and genocide-supporting men from the pre-common era, the earliest 500 years of the common era, and the 7th century CE respectively.

They are a reflection of the awful societies that birthed them. And I refuse to accept to submit to them today, in Europe, in 2015.

I accomplish everything by blaming the awful faiths, and its followers who find it natural and normal to die for having criticized/left/or insulted said faith.

[Olerand]

What are they? Criticism of Islam is not racism. The NPD is racist. Yet, the leadership of the PEGIDA movement is not a part of the NPD. The PEGIDA movement is vocally against Islam, and does not mention race. What's ambivalent about this?

I've already pointed out why it was. What you've been posting afterwards is some weirdly slippery argument that slides wherever it wants.

No, you haven't. You claimed the NPD was racist. I agreed. PEGIDA having no official relation to the NPD, I failed to see the relevance.

[FutureAmerica]

The protesters are exercising free speech, what's wrong with that. Just because you don't like their message, you shouldn't censor them.

[Edgy Opinions]

No, it does. Explicitly. The Koran is a perfidious book, like the Bible and Torah, written by a bunch of misogynistic, homophobic, slavery and genocide-supporting men from the pre-common era, the earliest 500 years of the common era, and the 7th century CE respectively.

They are a reflection of the awful societies that birthed them. And I refuse to accept to submit to them today, in Europe, in 2015.

I accomplish everything by blaming the awful faiths, and its followers who find it natural and normal to die for having criticized/left/or insulted said faith.

Yeah, and politics isn't far more intricate than what you seem to believe at all, with a bunch of nativist white Indigenous Europeans with likely right-leaning political views not influencing at all how this criticism will be perceived by these guys.

Let this for the people who actually should be doing this revolution: women, mogai folks and irreligious people/atheists and agnostics of Muslim background.

Yours can only be colonizing.

[Laerod]

I've already pointed out why it was. What you've been posting afterwards is some weirdly slippery argument that slides wherever it wants.

No, you haven't. You claimed the NPD was racist. I agreed. PEGIDA having no official relation to the NPD, I failed to see the relevance.

Wrong post.

The protesters are exercising free speech, what's wrong with that. Just because you don't like their message, you shouldn't censor them.

Uh, something being an exercise of free speech doesn't automatically make it good. And the primary argument against them has been that they are wrong, not that they should be forcibly shut up.

[Olerand]

Yeah, and politics isn't far more intricate than what you seem to believe at all, with a bunch of nativist white Indigenous Europeans with likely right-leaning political views not influencing at all how this criticism will be perceived by these guys.

Let this for the people who actually should be doing this revolution: women, mogai folks and irreligious people/atheists and agnostics of Muslim background.

Yours can only be colonizing.

I'll let them do whatever they want in the Muslim World. Not in Europe. Their battles are not ours, and will not be fought in our countries.

They want to fight each other over the meaning of their faith, or over Israel and Palestine, or Pakistan and India, or whoever? Let them do it outside of Europe.

EDIT: Also applies to Christians who want to fight over the divinity of Jesus, Mary, or relevance of the Holy Spirit; if those people still exist.
Let them do it in the countries that still care. We did our part for this shit, and now we want to move on.

[Shilya]

The protesters are exercising free speech, what's wrong with that. Just because you don't like their message, you shouldn't censor them.

It tells a lot about a protest when the best thing that can be said for it is that it's not literally illegal.

[Kantona]

No one denies that PEGIDA has extremists.

So does CDU, Conservatives and Republicans.

Calling PEGIDA itself a fascist far-right group is wrong in itself.

The concept of PEGIDA is not racist. Some small percentages of the people within may be. But they're reflected in other movements and political parties so it's not something PEGIDA alone should be called out for.

Funny, I don't recall calling PEGIDA fascist. Racist, anti-democratic, etc. But not fascist. The sentiment of these people is of course racist. If there's more people out on the street in Dresden protesting against a "flood" of muslims than there actually are muslims in all of Saxony, then they're racists, plain and simple.

Islam is not a race.

[Laerod]

Funny, I don't recall calling PEGIDA fascist. Racist, anti-democratic, etc. But not fascist. The sentiment of these people is of course racist. If there's more people out on the street in Dresden protesting against a "flood" of muslims than there actually are muslims in all of Saxony, then they're racists, plain and simple.

Islam is not a race.

Has been addressed =3

[Edgy Opinions]

I'll let them do whatever they want in the Muslim World. Not in Europe. Their battles are not ours, and will not be fought in our countries.

They want to fight each other over the meaning of their faith, or over Israel and Palestine, or Pakistan and India, or whoever? Let them do it outside of Europe.

Lel then your concern for all those groups oppressed under Muslim societies is very two-faced.

[Kantona]

Islam is not a race.

Has been addressed =3

Ok, than go and educate yourself now.

[Laerod]

Has been addressed =3

Ok, than go and educate yourself now.

Oho! Ohohoho! XD

I've already addressed your mistaken assertion I mean. Also "then".

[Olerand]

I'll let them do whatever they want in the Muslim World. Not in Europe. Their battles are not ours, and will not be fought in our countries.

They want to fight each other over the meaning of their faith, or over Israel and Palestine, or Pakistan and India, or whoever? Let them do it outside of Europe.

Lel then your concern for all those groups oppressed under Muslim societies is very two-faced.

My concern for the people oppressed in Muslim countries is extremely shallow, and I never claimed otherwise. I am against their oppression as I should be according to the UNDHR. I certainly don't passionately care about their plights, and never claimed to anywhere in this thread.

Muslim societies have chosen their trajectory, and I don't care. Their path is not ours.

[Edgy Opinions]

My concern for the people oppressed in Muslim countries is extremely shallow, and I never claimed otherwise. I am against their oppression as I should be according to the UNDHR. I certainly don't passionately care about their plights, and never claimed to anywhere in this thread.

Muslim societies have chosen their trajectory, and I don't care. Their path is not ours.

So this whole criticism of Islam is just a pretext to make people feel bad about immigrants and what they represent, not to actually want to change them and the cause of their perceived problematic ways, just as I expected. Good to know.

Yes, I can call this racism with full force. Sorry, not sorry.

[Olerand]

My concern for the people oppressed in Muslim countries is extremely shallow, and I never claimed otherwise. I am against their oppression as I should be according to the UNDHR. I certainly don't passionately care about their plights, and never claimed to anywhere in this thread.

Muslim societies have chosen their trajectory, and I don't care. Their path is not ours.

So this whole criticism of Islam is just a pretext to make people feel bad about immigrants and what they represent, not to actually want to change them and the cause of their perceived problematic ways, just as I expected. Good to know.

Yes, I can call this racism with full force. Sorry, not sorry.

No, no, I am, and was, extremely clear over my problems with Islam. Its situation in Europe. I never claimed to want to be some liberator of Muslim societies who have willingly chosen subjugation.

If they want to live according to Shariah law, I don't recommend it due to the inherent contradictions it has with the UNDHR; but I certainly won't fight it. If they want us to live under Shariah law, then I will fight it tooth and nail.

I, being a nice post-imperialist, recognize their right to self-determination in their nations.

[Edgy Opinions]

No, no, I am, and was, extremely clear over my problems with Islam. Its situation in Europe. I never claimed to want to be some liberator of Muslim societies who have willingly chosen subjugation.

If they want to live according to Shariah law, I don't recommend it due to the inherent contradictions it has with the UNDHR; but I certainly won't fight it. If they want us to live under Shariah law, then I will fight it tooth and nail.

I mean EUROPEAN Muslims.

People to make them wake up about how Western values are still very conservative and not at all any kind of Leviathan or degeneracy. There are people with more capacity for this undertaking than a bunch of whiny right-wing mobs.

[Olerand]

No, no, I am, and was, extremely clear over my problems with Islam. Its situation in Europe. I never claimed to want to be some liberator of Muslim societies who have willingly chosen subjugation.

If they want to live according to Shariah law, I don't recommend it due to the inherent contradictions it has with the UNDHR; but I certainly won't fight it. If they want us to live under Shariah law, then I will fight it tooth and nail.

I mean EUROPEAN Muslims.

People to make them wake up about how Western values are still very conservative and not at all any kind of Leviathan or degeneracy. There are people with more capacity for this undertaking than a bunch of whiny right-wing mobs.

Your English is borderline incomprehensible. As for Western society, I never claimed it was perfect, nor amazing. Which doesn't mean I'm willing to replace it with something worse.

European Muslims, or at least French Muslims, need to integrate and accept modern secular French society, as the Catholics and Jews have. Otherwise, they can go live their fantasy in London, Mecca, or Singapore.

[Imperializt Russia]

Racism is about the belief that one race is superior to others.
It doesn't matter that these people are of different races, they're different and they're outsiders and they're all equally worse.

Still completely unsure why you're arguing this complete inconsequentiality.

Because the criticism of these groups because of their religious beliefs cannot be considered racism. Racism is about race, it's in the name. The only common tie all these groups hold, is their religious affiliation. Racism is about race. Turks are White. Algerians are North African, dark Whites, and Pakistanis are South Asian. All are Muslim. Islam is not a race.

I can only assume you're arguing this so viscerally to defend the "I'm not racist but" "defence".

What meaningfully separates prejudices based on religion from prejudices based on race?

[Olerand]

Because the criticism of these groups because of their religious beliefs cannot be considered racism. Racism is about race, it's in the name. The only common tie all these groups hold, is their religious affiliation. Racism is about race. Turks are White. Algerians are North African, dark Whites, and Pakistanis are South Asian. All are Muslim. Islam is not a race.

I can only assume you're arguing this so viscerally to defend the "I'm not racist but" "defence".

I certainly couldn't care less if someone considers me racist, so no, I am not defending myself. I am clarifying the clear impossibility of racism vis-a-vis a religion.