Suicide of Leelah Alcorn

[Lordieth]

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2013/10/08/2003574009
http://www.news-medical.net/health/Causes-of-Gender-Dysphoria.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx
http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-mapping-gender-identity-what-makes-boy-girl-247122

And you are right about sexual dimorphism in brain structure. There are some differences in male and female brains, as a result of evolution and what not. However, such differences, like gender, exist on a spectrum rather than a strict binary (i.e. some women have more "male" brains than some men). As a result, some people, because of hormonal changes in development or what not, end up with brains similar to that of the other sex, causing the person to identify with the other sex.

Basically, you can't help it.

I see, well, it makes sense then. How about feminine males and masculine females who are straight and identify as accordingly to their sex? Where do they fall on this?

What causes such behaviors and such mentalities? It can't just happen out of the blue. What causes the hormonal reactions and hormonal changes?

I'm not sure if the mechanisms have been discovered, but possibly genetic or environmental factors during fetal development. I don't need to know what causes them, however, to know that gender identity can differ from the sex a person is born.

[Lordieth]

I think if we're to be grateful of anything, it's that we weren't raised in households where our parents instilled in us the sense that there was something fundamentally wrong with who we are.

And I'm glad I wasn't born transgender or transsexual. Not because there's anything wrong with that, but I don't think I would be able to stand the stigma and the bigotry everyday, being told that I have to pretend to be something I am not. It would be terrible.

I have to agree. Even though I see gender more fluidly than those who see it as a very black and white issue, I still don't think I can comprehend how difficult it would be to go through life like that, even with a loving, supporting family.

[Republic of Coldwater]

And I'm glad I wasn't born transgender or transsexual. Not because there's anything wrong with that, but I don't think I would be able to stand the stigma and the bigotry everyday, being told that I have to pretend to be something I am not. It would be terrible.

I have to agree. Even though I see gender more fluidly than those who see it as a very black and white issue, I still don't think I can comprehend how difficult it would be to go through life like that, even with a loving, supporting family.

Honestly, it depends where you are. I'll be honest, I wouldn't be the friendliest guy towards a transgender or homosexual, although I recognize that their sexual orientation and gender identity is only one aspect of a person, and I won't necessarily hate a LGBT person. However, I would say that in the most liberal areas, you have the worst of bigots, as people would feel compelled to be actively anti-LGBT given how liberal the rest of the people are, and people would react by being the worst bigots possible against how liberal some areas are.

[The Huskar Social Union]

This is tragic news. Bloody hell

Shame on the people who drove her to this, what a disgrace.

[Divitaen]

I have to agree. Even though I see gender more fluidly than those who see it as a very black and white issue, I still don't think I can comprehend how difficult it would be to go through life like that, even with a loving, supporting family.

Honestly, it depends where you are. I'll be honest, I wouldn't be the friendliest guy towards a transgender or homosexual, although I recognize that their sexual orientation and gender identity is only one aspect of a person, and I won't necessarily hate a LGBT person. However, I would say that in the most liberal areas, you have the worst of bigots, as people would feel compelled to be actively anti-LGBT given how liberal the rest of the people are, and people would react by being the worst bigots possible against how liberal some areas are.

Wait so people are more bigoted in liberal areas? Why?

[Ostroeuropa]

Honestly, it depends where you are. I'll be honest, I wouldn't be the friendliest guy towards a transgender or homosexual, although I recognize that their sexual orientation and gender identity is only one aspect of a person, and I won't necessarily hate a LGBT person. However, I would say that in the most liberal areas, you have the worst of bigots, as people would feel compelled to be actively anti-LGBT given how liberal the rest of the people are, and people would react by being the worst bigots possible against how liberal some areas are.

Wait so people are more bigoted in liberal areas? Why?

I kind of get what he's saying.

A conservative in Bibleland will just be like "Eh, someone else will take care of making fun of that gay." and go about their business. Perhaps all of them do this.
In a liberal area, they'll be like, no, its up to me, and i have to be 110% intolerant to make up for the lack of fellow bigots in the area.

[Divitaen]

Wait so people are more bigoted in liberal areas? Why?

I kind of get what he's saying.

A conservative in Bibleland will just be like "Eh, someone else will take care of making fun of that gay." and go about their business. Perhaps all of them do this.
In a liberal area, they'll be like, no, its up to me, and i have to be 110% intolerant to make up for the lack of fellow bigots in the area.

Sighs. I see the point I guess. But in a liberal area I would assume people would be afraid of the backlash and all. I know LGBT people have always told me how much easier it is to admit they are gay in New York and California compared to Texas or Florida.

[Tamoi]

Suicide is a private matter, and anyone should have the right to their own death for any reason. The only tragedy here is that people are making such a big deal over a person's suicide. Equally it's foolish that that one thought their death should be a motivating factor for anyone.

The only reason for expressing gender whatsoever is for the purposes of pairing up for procreation. Other than that, everyone else, whether they be children, elderly, monastics, anyone intending not to have children by choice, or infertile for any reason have no reason to put on such a display. Gender is a mating display and that is its only purpose.

It has nothing to do with women blacksmithing and men baking. There is no biological compulsion for anyone to wear a skirt, otherwise you would never see cultures where everyone wears skirts like in Indonesia or where everyone wears pants like in America. There's even cultures where hunting is a primarily women's activity and as far as I know crossculturally that is the most gender correlated activity. One doesn't have to express gender at all, if you want to knit or fish or wear earmuffs just do it, but never do anything for the point of trying to express anything.

The opposite of what parents should do, also typical for narcissists. Seeing the child as an extention of themselves, a "thing" that has to be the way they want, instead of an individual.

People are nothing more than pawns of their linneage. The problem isn't in viewing their children as extensions of themselves, it's in the parents viewing themselves as individuals.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Honestly, it depends where you are. I'll be honest, I wouldn't be the friendliest guy towards a transgender or homosexual, although I recognize that their sexual orientation and gender identity is only one aspect of a person, and I won't necessarily hate a LGBT person. However, I would say that in the most liberal areas, you have the worst of bigots, as people would feel compelled to be actively anti-LGBT given how liberal the rest of the people are, and people would react by being the worst bigots possible against how liberal some areas are.

Wait so people are more bigoted in liberal areas? Why?

In places like NYC and LA, every 1 person in 500 probably is anti-LGBT, so they probably need to make up for that hatred. You won't feel compelled to be actively anti-gay when everyone is anti-gay in your community, but when you and maybe your best buddy are the only anti-gay people in your community, you would feel very compelled to do something about so many pro-gay people and the lack of anti-gay people. You would be further angered by so many pro-gay people, which would give you a sense of urgency.

I can back this up with personal experience. I've head terms such as 'Faggot" and "Dyke" far more often in Chicago, NYC and LA than in Salt Lake City and in the suburban 89% White areas of Georgia. In fact, I haven't seen so many people talk about homosexuality in Conservative areas I've been to, but I've heard a lot of people talk about homosexuality in NYC and LA.

[Divitaen]

Wait so people are more bigoted in liberal areas? Why?

In places like NYC and LA, every 1 person in 500 probably is anti-LGBT, so they probably need to make up for that hatred. You won't feel compelled to be actively anti-gay when everyone is anti-gay in your community, but when you and maybe your best buddy are the only anti-gay people in your community, you would feel very compelled to do something about so many pro-gay people and the lack of anti-gay people. You would be further angered by so many pro-gay people, which would give you a sense of urgency.

I can back this up with personal experience. I've head terms such as 'Faggot" and "Dyke" far more often in Chicago, NYC and LA than in Salt Lake City and in the suburban 89% White areas of Georgia. In fact, I haven't seen so many people talk about homosexuality in Conservative areas I've been to, but I've heard a lot of people talk about homosexuality in NYC and LA.

Hmm, I suppose I can see the reasoning behind it. It's over-compensation.

[Tamoi]

Except that gender isn't the same thing as physical sex, hence why we have medically recognisable and diagnosable disorders pertaining to gender identity. Last time I looked there wasn't a well-known condition where people were born believing they were dinosaurs, yet countless cases of children being born who have later explained how they felt they were a different gender, long before they had any concepts of gender identity.

Just for the sake of devil's advocacy, I'd like to point out there is infact a well-know medically recognisable and diagnosable condition where people are born believing they're another species. It's called clinical lycanthopism, and it's a form of psychosis. Being that psychosis is any state where a person's mental state does not match up with physical reality, some forms of transgenderism could be defined as such as well.

I'm not going to argue further on this point though, I don't follow this line of thought myself.

[Farnhamia]

"Oh god, they're drilling me because I posted about how much I hate trannies after one committed suicide for facing the cruel problems most of them have to endure! We transphobes are so oppressed!"

"A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion"
Don't be a dumb fuck.

*** Warned for flaming ***

Next time, when you feel you have to add that snide little tag at the end ... don't.

[Divitaen]

Except that gender isn't the same thing as physical sex, hence why we have medically recognisable and diagnosable disorders pertaining to gender identity. Last time I looked there wasn't a well-known condition where people were born believing they were dinosaurs, yet countless cases of children being born who have later explained how they felt they were a different gender, long before they had any concepts of gender identity.

Just for the sake of devil's advocacy, I'd like to point out there is infact a well-know medically recognisable and diagnosable condition where people are born believing they're another species. It's called clinical lycanthopism, and it's a form of psychosis. Being that psychosis is any state where a person's mental state does not match up with physical reality, some forms of transgenderism could be defined as such as well.

I'm not going to argue further on this point though, I don't follow this line of thought myself.

Still, transsexuals are that way because of biology. It is completely natural. Clinical lycanthopism, it seems, results from hallucinations and schizophrenia convincing a person he or she has been transformed from an animal species, and must return to that state, so the latter is clearly a mental illness.

[Iwassoclose]

I feel for her but killing oneself should never be used as a solution. Especially in the way she did.

[Tamoi]

Still, transsexuals are that way because of biology. It is completely natural. Clinical lycanthopism, it seems, results from hallucinations and schizophrenia convincing a person he or she has been transformed from an animal species, and must return to that state, so the latter is clearly a mental illness.

I'd like to point out that this line of defining what is a mental illness or not is semantic, not physiological. Schizophrenia and these hallucinations are biological in nature after all, so these people also too believe this for biological reason. And there certainly are people who feel this about themselves just as strongly as there are people who feel their body isn't the right sex.

Just a thought experiment. Would the correct response be to treat these people by refering to them as if they were dogs and matching their bodies to their proprioception through surgery were the technology available? If not, why should this be any different from transexuality? Nomatter where you put the dividing line it is going to be arbitrary on some level.

[The Social Justice Warrior]

her parents really should feel like the pieces of shit they are.

[Divitaen]

Still, transsexuals are that way because of biology. It is completely natural. Clinical lycanthopism, it seems, results from hallucinations and schizophrenia convincing a person he or she has been transformed from an animal species, and must return to that state, so the latter is clearly a mental illness.

I'd like to point out that this line of defining what is a mental illness or not is semantic, not physiological. Schizophrenia and these hallucinations are biological in nature after all, so these people also too believe this for biological reason. And there certainly are people who feel this about themselves just as strongly as there are people who feel their body isn't the right sex.

Just a thought experiment. Would the correct response be to treat these people by refering to them as if they were dogs and matching their bodies to their proprioception through surgery were the technology available? If not, why should this be any different from transexuality? Nomatter where you put the dividing line it is going to be arbitrary on some level.

Perhaps that is true, but a big difference is not only the degree. There is no known treatment for gender identity disorder other than sex reassignment surgery to alleviate the gender dysphoria. Logically, if an XY male has a female brain structure, there can be no way to alleviate the feeling of GID until the person's body matches the sex the person's mind has he or she is. In the case of clinical lycanthopism, while brain structure and genetics plays a role, cultural factors have been found to play a much more significant role, with cultures containing werewolf mythologies showing a higher prevalence of such a mental illness. More importantly, "conversion" therapy for GID has been widely discredited by the APA and other organizations. In contrast, mood stabilisers and psychotropic drugs are regularly applied to sufferers of clinical lycanthopism, with no complaint from psychological associations.

So I still think they are very different, in that GID sufferers need to have their gender identity reinforced, thus we ought to use the pronoun they identify with. For lycanthopism, there is a viable alternative to calling them werewolves and reinforcing that self-perception.

EDIT: I never, ever believed in my whole life I would ever end up having a discussion like this. Ever.

[Seraven]

her parents really should feel like the pieces of shit they are.

They hardly felt that and went out of their way to modified the story behind the suicide, made it as an accident.

[Sociobiology]

Still, transsexuals are that way because of biology. It is completely natural. Clinical lycanthopism, it seems, results from hallucinations and schizophrenia convincing a person he or she has been transformed from an animal species, and must return to that state, so the latter is clearly a mental illness.

I'd like to point out that this line of defining what is a mental illness or not is semantic, not physiological. Schizophrenia and these hallucinations are biological in nature after all, so these people also too believe this for biological reason. And there certainly are people who feel this about themselves just as strongly as there are people who feel their body isn't the right sex.

Just a thought experiment. Would the correct response be to treat these people by refering to them as if they were dogs and matching their bodies to their proprioception through surgery were the technology available? If not, why should this be any different from transexuality? Nomatter where you put the dividing line it is going to be arbitrary on some level.

because humans contain all the genetic material to be either sex so depending on how the genes turn out they could have a brain of one sex and the genitalia of a different one. Humans don't contain dog differentiation genes so they cannot actually be part dog.
XY female is the third most common genotype/phenotype pair.
then you have XX male, XXY, XO, XXX, ect.
~1% of the population, and that's just the chromosomal dis-junctions.

[Italios]

Really supportive parents there. Seriously, you shouldn't make you child suffer because it's the religion you believe in, let them do what they want. You can go ahead and believe that transgender people are Satan worshipper or whatever, but you should not cause your child grief because of it.

[Blekksprutia]

Why do the parents not realize that their dear daughter's suicide is the direct result of their being total shitbags to her?

[Seraven]

Really supportive parents there. Seriously, you shouldn't make you child suffer because it's the religion you believe in, let them do what they want. You can go ahead and believe that transgender people are Satan worshipper or whatever, but you should not cause your child grief because of it.

They tend to do that, however.

[Lordieth]

Except that gender isn't the same thing as physical sex, hence why we have medically recognisable and diagnosable disorders pertaining to gender identity. Last time I looked there wasn't a well-known condition where people were born believing they were dinosaurs, yet countless cases of children being born who have later explained how they felt they were a different gender, long before they had any concepts of gender identity.

Just for the sake of devil's advocacy, I'd like to point out there is infact a well-know medically recognisable and diagnosable condition where people are born believing they're another species. It's called clinical lycanthopism, and it's a form of psychosis. Being that psychosis is any state where a person's mental state does not match up with physical reality, some forms of transgenderism could be defined as such as well.

I'm not going to argue further on this point though, I don't follow this line of thought myself.

Yes, I am aware that there are broader physiological conditions which delve into the perceptions of reality, however for the exact reason you have just pointed out, the reason I did not mentioned these is because it would be a very broad and generalistic way to attack transgenderism. There may be a small few cases where this is the cause, however, I think it's far more likely an issue where the brain is developing in a different direction during development, or some other underlying condition has caused the person to develop different gender traits as they grow up. One thing I hope we can agree on is that it's a complex subject, and nobody has all the answers.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Just for the sake of devil's advocacy, I'd like to point out there is infact a well-know medically recognisable and diagnosable condition where people are born believing they're another species. It's called clinical lycanthopism, and it's a form of psychosis. Being that psychosis is any state where a person's mental state does not match up with physical reality, some forms of transgenderism could be defined as such as well.

I'm not going to argue further on this point though, I don't follow this line of thought myself.

Yes, I am aware that there are broader physiological conditions which delve into the perceptions of reality, however for the exact reason you have just pointed out, the reason I did not mentioned these is because it would be a very broad and generalistic way to attack transgenderism. There may be a small few cases where this is the cause, however, I think it's far more likely an issue where the brain is developing in a different direction during development, or some other underlying condition has caused the person to develop different gender traits as they grow up. One thing I hope we can agree on is that it's a complex subject, and nobody has all the answers.

I do. I have every answer.

[Siburria]

Rest in Peace, Leelah.

The only consolation I can offer is the future. One day, these days will be seen as backward and ignorant. One day, these incidents will never happen. One day, humanity shall be at peace with itself, and hate shall be extinguished as we gaze down from the stars on our pale blue dot, once the home to our species.

Yes, The hate will be extinguished by a nuclear blast as colonists on the moon watch their home be purged.