Suicide of Leelah Alcorn

[Republic of Coldwater]

So if I begin to identify myself as a dinosaur, then I should be referred to as not a human, but a dinosaur?

Couldn't you just do people a favor and call them pre-op (their preference.)?

That person is still physically male, and unless that person is physically female with female hormones, it makes no sense for me to call them a female, as Alcorn still has the features that come from the Y Chromosome present.

[Divitaen]

Couldn't you just do people a favor and call them pre-op (their preference.)?

That person is still physically male, and unless that person is physically female with female hormones, it makes no sense for me to call them a female, as Alcorn still has the features that come from the Y Chromosome present.

Like I said, you are talking about sex. Sex and gender are two very different things.

[Republic of Coldwater]

So if I begin to identify myself as a dinosaur, then I should be referred to as not a human, but a dinosaur?

???????

Um, no. Transsexuals suffer from gender identity disorder. They are born with a biological situation where their brain structure causes them to identify with a sex that is opposite of the sex assigned at birth. It is a proven and well-documented psychological condition. If you are a human and you think you are a dinosaur, then you are simply insane.

My point was that gender was a matter of identity and behaviour. Species, unfortunately, is biological. Sorry.

Isn't insanity also a well-documented, and probably better documented psychological condition?

[Ostroeuropa]

Couldn't you just do people a favor and call them pre-op (their preference.)?

That person is still physically male, and unless that person is physically female with female hormones, it makes no sense for me to call them a female, as Alcorn still has the features that come from the Y Chromosome present.

Is it really that important to you? It's basically a mrs/mizz/miss issue.

[Divitaen]

???????

Um, no. Transsexuals suffer from gender identity disorder. They are born with a biological situation where their brain structure causes them to identify with a sex that is opposite of the sex assigned at birth. It is a proven and well-documented psychological condition. If you are a human and you think you are a dinosaur, then you are simply insane.

My point was that gender was a matter of identity and behaviour. Species, unfortunately, is biological. Sorry.

Isn't insanity also a well-documented, and probably better documented psychological condition?

There is nothing biological about a person identifying as a dinosaur. There is something biological about identifying as the opposite gender. Gender identity isn't a choice.

Also, like I mentioned, gender is about identity and expression, so it can be different from the sex assigned at birth. A species can never be changed. It is very different.

[Republic of Coldwater]

That person is still physically male, and unless that person is physically female with female hormones, it makes no sense for me to call them a female, as Alcorn still has the features that come from the Y Chromosome present.

Like I said, you are talking about sex. Sex and gender are two very different things.

So I should disregard one's sex when referring them to a he or a she.

[Ostroeuropa]

Like I said, you are talking about sex. Sex and gender are two very different things.

So I should disregard one's sex when referring them to a he or a she.

The sex is fairly irrelevant yes.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Isn't insanity also a well-documented, and probably better documented psychological condition?

There is nothing biological about a person identifying as a dinosaur. There is something biological about identifying as the opposite gender. Gender identity isn't a choice.

Also, like I mentioned, gender is about identity and expression, so it can be different from the sex assigned at birth. A species can never be changed. It is very different.

How is it biological when one's parents probably didn't have the genes to feel as if they were another gender? How is that gene activated?

Who knows, perhaps one day we can transfer a person's conscience to another species, or mutate one into a dinosaur. Unless that person physically becomes a dinosaur and has the mentality of a dinosaur, that person is not a dinosaur.

[Divitaen]

Like I said, you are talking about sex. Sex and gender are two very different things.

So I should disregard one's sex when referring them to a he or a she.

Yes. It's about sensitivity to others. The person is undergoing transition and suffering from gender identity issues. He or she is trying to be who he or she is. So use the pronoun that one identifies with, not the one you prefer.

[Republic of Coldwater]

So I should disregard one's sex when referring them to a he or a she.

The sex is fairly irrelevant yes.

When one's sex chooses the hormones that go into their body and thus initiate adolescent growth and actually determine numerous psychological factors (Hormones have been attributed to mood swings and other psychological characteristics), when the extra X or Y Chromosome can actually determine different psychological processes between men and women.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 78248.html

[Lordieth]

Couldn't you just do people a favor and call them pre-op (their preference.)?

That person is still physically male, and unless that person is physically female with female hormones, it makes no sense for me to call them a female, as Alcorn still has the features that come from the Y Chromosome present.

Except that gender isn't the same thing as physical sex, hence why we have medically recognisable and diagnosable disorders pertaining to gender identity. Last time I looked there wasn't a well-known condition where people were born believing they were dinosaurs, yet countless cases of children being born who have later explained how they felt they were a different gender, long before they had any concepts of gender identity.

[Ostroeuropa]

There is nothing biological about a person identifying as a dinosaur. There is something biological about identifying as the opposite gender. Gender identity isn't a choice.

Also, like I mentioned, gender is about identity and expression, so it can be different from the sex assigned at birth. A species can never be changed. It is very different.

How is it biological when one's parents probably didn't have the genes to feel as if they were another gender? How is that gene activated?

Who knows, perhaps one day we can transfer a person's conscience to another species, or mutate one into a dinosaur. Unless that person physically becomes a dinosaur and has the mentality of a dinosaur, that person is not a dinosaur.

There's two sets of things we're talking about here.

Sex- a purely physical expression.

Gender - A bunch of nonsense and granfalloonery peolple have projected onto the sexes. Recent orthodoxy is that you should be able to switch between these groups since they are basically made up.
You are no more a male than you are an A-blood typer. (If you up and decided that A-Blood type was a huge deal and impacted your personality and the way you live your life and others see you.)
It's just a set of genitals. But the "Male" identity is complex and projected on top of it.

[Divitaen]

There is nothing biological about a person identifying as a dinosaur. There is something biological about identifying as the opposite gender. Gender identity isn't a choice.

Also, like I mentioned, gender is about identity and expression, so it can be different from the sex assigned at birth. A species can never be changed. It is very different.

How is it biological when one's parents probably didn't have the genes to feel as if they were another gender? How is that gene activated?

Who knows, perhaps one day we can transfer a person's conscience to another species, or mutate one into a dinosaur. Unless that person physically becomes a dinosaur and has the mentality of a dinosaur, that person is not a dinosaur.

That sounds like the same argument people make for why homosexuality is not genetic. "How can the child be gay if the parents weren't gay???" Genetics and alleles are much more complicated than that. But transsexuals and transgender people have been found to have similar brain structures, for instance.

And alright, if in a theoretical world people could be born with "species identity disorder" and somehow, magically, identify as a dinosaur even though one is a human, then yes, go for it, become a dinosaur. I'm all for free choice. But until then, stop making ridiculous comparisons. Deal with what is true at present.

[Master Shake]

Might as well arrest her parents if they drove her off the edge.

Arrest his parents for free speech? As terrible as his parents were, they also have 1st Amendment Rights to Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion.

Her parents...respect the dead girl's wishes...

It was a she...

[Republic of Coldwater]

How is it biological when one's parents probably didn't have the genes to feel as if they were another gender? How is that gene activated?

Who knows, perhaps one day we can transfer a person's conscience to another species, or mutate one into a dinosaur. Unless that person physically becomes a dinosaur and has the mentality of a dinosaur, that person is not a dinosaur.

That sounds like the same argument people make for why homosexuality is not genetic. "How can the child be gay if the parents weren't gay???" Genetics and alleles are much more complicated than that. But transsexuals and transgender people have been found to have similar brain structures, for instance.

And alright, if in a theoretical world people could be born with "species identity disorder" and somehow, magically, identify as a dinosaur even though one is a human, then yes, go for it, become a dinosaur. I'm all for free choice. But until then, stop making ridiculous comparisons. Deal with what is true at present.

I question how genetic is homosexuality, or gender identity disorder, or a lot of other things. However, one should be able to be the opposite or gay, and although I do have some personal reservations for such actions, I don't think the law should stop you from doing such things.

Could you source some evidence for that? As far as I know, brain structure is based off sex.

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles. ... fferently/
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 78248.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/21s ... -and-women
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differ ... psychology

[Divitaen]

That sounds like the same argument people make for why homosexuality is not genetic. "How can the child be gay if the parents weren't gay???" Genetics and alleles are much more complicated than that. But transsexuals and transgender people have been found to have similar brain structures, for instance.

And alright, if in a theoretical world people could be born with "species identity disorder" and somehow, magically, identify as a dinosaur even though one is a human, then yes, go for it, become a dinosaur. I'm all for free choice. But until then, stop making ridiculous comparisons. Deal with what is true at present.

I question how genetic is homosexuality, or gender identity disorder, or a lot of other things. However, one should be able to be the opposite or gay, and although I do have some personal reservations for such actions, I don't think the law should stop you from doing such things.

Could you source some evidence for that? As far as I know, brain structure is based off sex.

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles. ... fferently/
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 78248.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/21s ... -and-women
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differ ... psychology

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2013/10/08/2003574009
http://www.news-medical.net/health/Causes-of-Gender-Dysphoria.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx
http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-mapping-gender-identity-what-makes-boy-girl-247122

And you are right about sexual dimorphism in brain structure. There are some differences in male and female brains, as a result of evolution and what not. However, such differences, like gender, exist on a spectrum rather than a strict binary (i.e. some women have more "male" brains than some men). As a result, some people, because of hormonal changes in development or what not, end up with brains similar to that of the other sex, causing the person to identify with the other sex.

Basically, you can't help it.

[Torisakia]

"My death needs to mean something,"

If countless of other transgenders have followed the same route as this person and their deaths didn't fix anything major, what makes this person think theirs will? That's just seems like insanity.

Although I don't necessarily like the Bieber-cut he (she, it; pick your favorite pronoun) had going on.

[Lordieth]

That sounds like the same argument people make for why homosexuality is not genetic. "How can the child be gay if the parents weren't gay???" Genetics and alleles are much more complicated than that. But transsexuals and transgender people have been found to have similar brain structures, for instance.

And alright, if in a theoretical world people could be born with "species identity disorder" and somehow, magically, identify as a dinosaur even though one is a human, then yes, go for it, become a dinosaur. I'm all for free choice. But until then, stop making ridiculous comparisons. Deal with what is true at present.

I question how genetic is homosexuality, or gender identity disorder, or a lot of other things. However, one should be able to be the opposite or gay, and although I do have some personal reservations for such actions, I don't think the law should stop you from doing such things.

Could you source some evidence for that? As far as I know, brain structure is based off sex.

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles. ... fferently/
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 78248.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/21s ... -and-women
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differ ... psychology

http://www.shb-info.org/sexbrain.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21094885
http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Sexual ... tation.pdf

These are but a few that show how genetic or developmental problems can cause gender identity issues, and this barely even scratches the surface, as it is incredibly difficult to diagnose the cause of a mental disorder or cognitive change that would change ones gender identity.

For the latter, refer to the wealth of information on Gender Identity Disorder, Gender Dysphoria and other conditions, but there have been some studies, such as;

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ ... 2003574009

[Master Shake]

"My death needs to mean something,"

If countless of other transgenders have followed the same route as this person and their deaths didn't fix anything major, what makes this person think theirs will? That's just seems like insanity.

Although I don't necessarily like the Bieber-cut he (she, it; pick your favorite pronoun) had going on.

Let's just thank god she didn't go Columbine or something...

Could have gone with something more feminine, I agree, but in a christian household she was lucky to even get away with a Bieber cut...

[Lordieth]

If countless of other transgenders have followed the same route as this person and their deaths didn't fix anything major, what makes this person think theirs will? That's just seems like insanity.

Although I don't necessarily like the Bieber-cut he (she, it; pick your favorite pronoun) had going on.

Let's just thank god she didn't go Columbine or something...

Could have gone with something more feminine, I agree, but in a christian household she was lucky to even get away with a Bieber cut...

I think if we're to be grateful of anything, it's that we weren't raised in households where our parents instilled in us the sense that there was something fundamentally wrong with who we are.

[The Grey Wolf]

"My death needs to mean something,"

If countless of other transgenders have followed the same route as this person and their deaths didn't fix anything major, what makes this person think theirs will? That's just seems like insanity.

Although I don't necessarily like the Bieber-cut he (she, it; pick your favorite pronoun) had going on.

It seems like egotism.

[Master Shake]

Let's just thank god she didn't go Columbine or something...

Could have gone with something more feminine, I agree, but in a christian household she was lucky to even get away with a Bieber cut...

I think if we're to be grateful of anything, it's that we weren't raised in households where our parents instilled in us the sense that there was something fundamentally wrong with who we are.

Defiantly makes me love my family a little more.

[Republic of Coldwater]

I question how genetic is homosexuality, or gender identity disorder, or a lot of other things. However, one should be able to be the opposite or gay, and although I do have some personal reservations for such actions, I don't think the law should stop you from doing such things.

Could you source some evidence for that? As far as I know, brain structure is based off sex.

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles. ... fferently/
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 78248.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/21s ... -and-women
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differ ... psychology

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2013/10/08/2003574009
http://www.news-medical.net/health/Causes-of-Gender-Dysphoria.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx
http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-mapping-gender-identity-what-makes-boy-girl-247122

And you are right about sexual dimorphism in brain structure. There are some differences in male and female brains, as a result of evolution and what not. However, such differences, like gender, exist on a spectrum rather than a strict binary (i.e. some women have more "male" brains than some men). As a result, some people, because of hormonal changes in development or what not, end up with brains similar to that of the other sex, causing the person to identify with the other sex.

Basically, you can't help it.

I see, well, it makes sense then. How about feminine males and masculine females who are straight and identify as accordingly to their sex? Where do they fall on this?

What causes such behaviors and such mentalities? It can't just happen out of the blue. What causes the hormonal reactions and hormonal changes?

[Divitaen]

Let's just thank god she didn't go Columbine or something...

Could have gone with something more feminine, I agree, but in a christian household she was lucky to even get away with a Bieber cut...

I think if we're to be grateful of anything, it's that we weren't raised in households where our parents instilled in us the sense that there was something fundamentally wrong with who we are.

And I'm glad I wasn't born transgender or transsexual. Not because there's anything wrong with that, but I don't think I would be able to stand the stigma and the bigotry everyday, being told that I have to pretend to be something I am not. It would be terrible.

[Divitaen]

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2013/10/08/2003574009
http://www.news-medical.net/health/Causes-of-Gender-Dysphoria.aspx
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx
http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-mapping-gender-identity-what-makes-boy-girl-247122

And you are right about sexual dimorphism in brain structure. There are some differences in male and female brains, as a result of evolution and what not. However, such differences, like gender, exist on a spectrum rather than a strict binary (i.e. some women have more "male" brains than some men). As a result, some people, because of hormonal changes in development or what not, end up with brains similar to that of the other sex, causing the person to identify with the other sex.

Basically, you can't help it.

I see, well, it makes sense then. How about feminine males and masculine females who are straight and identify as accordingly to their sex? Where do they fall on this?

What causes such behaviors and such mentalities? It can't just happen out of the blue. What causes the hormonal reactions and hormonal changes?

Well it depends. They are not necessarily "transsexual". For example, an XY male may have effeminate habits, making his gender expression more feminine, but if he doesn't suffer from gender dysphoria (i.e. he never feels uncomfortable in his body) then he'll just be another male breaking gender stereotypes. Those who suffer from the specific condition of gender dysphoria will need sex reassignment surgery.

As for what causes hormonal reactions and changes, if I'm not wrong, and I'm really no expert on this, it is part of the hormones one is exposed to during pregnancy and development. I think. From what I know science is actually still researching this, but the general consensus is that GID can be traced to conditions pre-birth like genetics or brain structure.