Suicide of Leelah Alcorn

[Free Tristania]

People fulfil the role they have been made for. Society does not revolve you - but you fit yourself into society.
I wasn't born to be a sprinter eventhough I quite like it so I can forget about playing that role in society.

This is not a debate on your life philosophy.

It very much is, I am afraid. Since you decided to turn something biological into something political.

[Salandriagado]

Stop being ridiculous. What the fuck kind of standard of proof do you want? You've got the courts holding it up (so that's beyond reasonable doubt to start with), you've got California, Costa Rica, Mississippi, Utah, Mexico, Georgia, the Czech Republic, Western Samoa, Nevada and Jamaica raiding them and/or shutting them down and in many cases arresting and convicting the administrators, you've got former administrators denouncing them, you've got them openly admitting to having beating children up to the point that they couldn't open their mouths to eat, and you've got literally hundreds of testimonies from victims helpfully collected in a large-scale support group for survivors.

Stop being ridiculous. That's exactly what your assertion is: ridiculous. Parents, who wouldn't harm their children, believe that their children are afflicted with something with something harmful. And then they send them off to therapy (as my parents would have sent me if I would, f.i, depressed) and now this becomes a polical case because some people, like you and "Miss Trotsky" don't like it and quickly make up stories about torture and go to court, convincing a jury (a group of people dragged from the street to do their "duty") that something is horribly wrong and ban it.

The medical records would disagree.

[Free Tristania]

Stop being ridiculous. That's exactly what your assertion is: ridiculous. Parents, who wouldn't harm their children, believe that their children are afflicted with something with something harmful. And then they send them off to therapy (as my parents would have sent me if I would, f.i, depressed) and now this becomes a polical case because some people, like you and "Miss Trotsky" don't like it and quickly make up stories about torture and go to court, convincing a jury (a group of people dragged from the street to do their "duty") that something is horribly wrong and ban it.

The medical records would disagree.

Says ? That same jury ?

[Edgy Opinions]

They don't turn allosexual, though, because asexual identity and experience are by far dominant.

I don't deny they might identify as asexual or gay or whatever.
I just think they are fooling themselves.
Same as all those people who run around insisting they are straight and panicking the fuck out when they get a boner over seeing penises.

Oh, just because i'm sexually attracted to people doesn't mean i'm not an asexual!!!
Its MUH IDENTITY.

You are neglecting the concepts of grey areas and of privilege, as well as the historical meaning of things might influence a person more than their actual definition. Many people who identify as black, or as white, are actually mixed-race. Does it suddenly become invalid? No, because these are very relevant social constructs, not set in stone, but defined by how people use them.

I am not intellectually dishonest at all, you are. For political reasons. I used my source and you don't source it properly.

I am talking apples and your source walnuts.

[Edgy Opinions]

This is not a debate on your life philosophy.

It very much is, I am afraid. Since you decided to turn something biological into something political.

Reporting identity as gay, lesbian and bisexual are political categories, not biological one.

"Feels sexually attracted to people of the same gender, oftentimes not reporting such" is more like biology. And even then, you still depend on what people actually are up to recognize.

3/10 for effort

[Free Tristania]

I am talking apples and your source walnuts.

Wrong again: I am using sources and you are asserting.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't deny they might identify as asexual or gay or whatever.
I just think they are fooling themselves.
Same as all those people who run around insisting they are straight and panicking the fuck out when they get a boner over seeing penises.

Oh, just because i'm sexually attracted to people doesn't mean i'm not an asexual!!!
Its MUH IDENTITY.

You are neglecting the concepts of grey areas and of privilege, as well as the historical meaning of things might influence a person more than their actual definition. Many people who identify as black, or as white, are actually mixed-race. Does it suddenly become invalid? No, because these are very relevant social constructs, not set in stone, but defined by how people use them.

I am not intellectually dishonest at all, you are. For political reasons. I used my source and you don't source it properly.

I am talking apples and your source walnuts.

I'm not neglecting them.
They simply aren't relevant to the objective facts i'm considering.
If you are sexually attracted to both women and men, you are not gay.
I don't give a fuck if you THINK you're gay, or if everyone TREATS you like you're gay.
They're wrong, and so are you.

You can legitimately say that you have stock in ending the oppression of homosexual tendencies, for sure.
But pretending to be gay is just deluding yourself as much as self-hating """"Straights""""

As it happens, race is a bullshit category yes.
People who identify as black or white are wrong too.

[Edgy Opinions]

I am talking apples and your source walnuts.

Wrong again: I am using sources and you are asserting.

Another one, this time with 22%: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homossexualidade

[Free Tristania]

It very much is, I am afraid. Since you decided to turn something biological into something political.

Reporting identity as gay, lesbian and bisexual are political categories, not biological one.

Since when ? I don't consider my heterosexuality to be a political category at all. As if a homosexual would always vote liberal and a heterosexual always conservative.

[Free Tristania]

Wrong again: I am using sources and you are asserting.

Another one, this time with 22%: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homossexualidade

In English. I don't speak Portuguese.

[Edgy Opinions]

Reporting identity as gay, lesbian and bisexual are political categories, not biological one.

Since when ? I don't consider my heterosexuality to be a political category at all. As if a homosexual would always vote liberal and a heterosexual always conservative.

Since identities are psychological constructs rather than an actual sure proof affirmation of events as they occurred.

Another one, this time with 22%: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homossexualidade

In English. I don't speak Portuguese.

That's too bad.

"os principais estudos indicam uma prevalência de 2% a 13% de indivíduos homossexuais na população,6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 enquanto outros estudos sugerem que aproximadamente 22% da população apresente algum grau de tendência homossexual.17"

17 gives you https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homossexualidade#cite_note-McConaghy_et_al-18

[Free Tristania]

Since identities are psychological constructs rather than an actual sure proof affirmation of events as they occurred.

I am sorry but that is tosh. I am a human being, Dutchman, I have blonde grey and grey eyes and I was born with it: biological.

That's too bad.

"os principais estudos indicam uma prevalência de 2% a 13% de indivíduos homossexuais na população,6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 enquanto outros estudos sugerem que aproximadamente 22% da população apresente algum grau de tendência homossexual.17"

17 gives you https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homossexualidade#cite_note-McConaghy_et_al-18

A source that can't be checked - other than mine. Try again, please. With a source that can be checked. For now the number the number of 3.8 stands.

[Edgy Opinions]

Since identities are psychological constructs rather than an actual sure proof affirmation of events as they occurred.

I am sorry but that is tosh. I am a human being, Dutchman, I have blonde grey and grey eyes and I was born with it: biological.

That's too bad.

A source that can't be checked - other than mine. Try again, please. With a source that can be checked. For now the number the number of 3.8 stands.

Goodbye. I won't fall for this trap.

[Nei Pennsilfaani]

Suicide as internally directed homicide? When was that decided, and why was I not invited to the meeting?

I have never heard anyone seriously espouse that view, except perhaps when talking about psychodynamic theory.

That is indeed how it started, but that's been the prevailing wind. Now, don't fool yourself into thinking that law has anything to do with therapy, but the law does coincide in this case with the idea. By that I mean, have you ever wondered why it's considered a crime to commit suicide? Seems sort of redundant, but if you look at how it's written, suicide is again described as self-directed homicide.

Also, let's look apart from that and take a look at homicidal ideation and suicidal ideation. Both involve the concerted act of ending the life of a human being. To most, the fact that the individual targeted is the self is irrelevant. It's the aggressive action taken that's the more telling.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing what the law has to do with psychological etiology of suicide. You may be right, considering I rarely concern myself with what the law says, but I've also seen explanations that regard suicide being illegal as rooted in the State's monopoly on violence including, apparently, against the self.

I'm not sure I would class suicide as an entirely aggressive act. It may be, but in my own practical experience (as gatekeeper and student in psychology) I've mostly found Shneidman's concepts to true; psychache, hopelessness, and suicide as an end to intractable suffering rather than an act of violence. In fact, what I've seen suggests that most suicidal people do not want to die, but want pain to end and see suicide as the only way. Then again my own experiences are limited.

There probably is some level of homicidal ideation in suicide, but I find that to be woefully inadequate explanation.

[Salandriagado]

The medical records would disagree.

Says ? That same jury ?

I'm finding it hard to believe that I'm actually having to explain this shit, but the doctors. They tend to be the people who write medical reports on the people who are taken to them for treatment after being tortured.

[Neutraligon]

That is something I have had to deal with since my own parent is I am very sure depressed (refuses to deal). That parent constantly asks if something is wrong with them, I try to help, but I am scared I am making things worse not better. There was a time I feared that person was suicidal, since then I think they have gotten better but...I am still scared.

If they're suicidal, then yes, there is something wrong with them -- not in the sense of being a bad person or worthless, but in the same sense that someone who has the flu, cancer, Ebola, etc. has something wrong with them.

I don't think they are any more...but I am scared to be wrong.

[Ostroeuropa]

If they're suicidal, then yes, there is something wrong with them -- not in the sense of being a bad person or worthless, but in the same sense that someone who has the flu, cancer, Ebola, etc. has something wrong with them.

I don't think they are any more...but I am scared to be wrong.

Contact psychological authorities for advise.

[Neutraligon]

I don't think they are any more...but I am scared to be wrong.

Contact psychological authorities for advise.

Tried that, they said my parent should go to psychological authorities...my parent refuses. I wish their were better advice then don't hit their self esteem, since it isn't clear what will hurt a person's self esteem. What is right for some is completely wrong for others. I have reported people before as being suicidal, and was always glad I did, but it still scares me that I might be wrong.

[Ostroeuropa]

Contact psychological authorities for advise.

Tried that, they said my parent should go to psychological authorities...my parent refuses. I wish their were better advice then don't hit their self esteem, since it isn't clear what will hurt a person's self esteem. What is right for some is completely wrong for others. I have reported people before as being suicidal, and was always glad I did, but it still scares me that I might be wrong.

The other parent available? They could perhaps be more convincing, no offence. But you've probably tried that anyway.
Sucks. Keep an eye on it and such, and there are support groups for relatives of people with mental illness if you need them.

[Dyakovo]

Not everywhere considers it a crime to commit suicide.

I've always found that law strange. I mean, attempted suicide is not likely to be prosecuted. Anything post suicide would be largely irrelevant to the person, would it not?

Aiding others to commit suicide is of course an entirely different thing. Or going as far as to foster so called depraved heart murders.

Suicide should be a death-penalty crime.
*nods*

[Neutraligon]

Tried that, they said my parent should go to psychological authorities...my parent refuses. I wish their were better advice then don't hit their self esteem, since it isn't clear what will hurt a person's self esteem. What is right for some is completely wrong for others. I have reported people before as being suicidal, and was always glad I did, but it still scares me that I might be wrong.

The other parent available? They could perhaps be more convincing, no offence. But you've probably tried that anyway.
Sucks. Keep an eye on it and such, and there are support groups for relatives of people with mental illness if you need them.

Nope, that is the reason for the depression (other parent died).

[Ostroeuropa]

The other parent available? They could perhaps be more convincing, no offence. But you've probably tried that anyway.
Sucks. Keep an eye on it and such, and there are support groups for relatives of people with mental illness if you need them.

Nope, that is the reason for the depression (other parent died).

Condolences.
Good luck with it either way, keep reading material.
Even if turns out ok, its useful information to have for if you come across someone else later on.
And don't worry too much. You're trying to help out, and so long as they know that, it's a big deal. (At least, was for me.)
Just someone knowing you're depressed and being there helps a lot, especially if you know they're keeping an eye on you.

[Neutraligon]

Nope, that is the reason for the depression (other parent died).

Condolences.
Good luck with it either way, keep reading material.
Even if turns out ok, its useful information to have for if you come across someone else later on.
And don't worry too much. You're trying to help out, and so long as they know that, it's a big deal. (At least, was for me.)
Just someone knowing you're depressed and being there helps a lot, especially if you know they're keeping an eye on you.

I try to, living half a country away makes it hard, but I call and we talk all the time so I hope it feels like I am there and listening. That's good to know.

[Val Halla]

I am curious to what her parent's thoughts are as a result of all the fallout from her death. I hope that this can change something, but this should have never been an issue in the first place. It is always sad when a person dies before their time, but even sadder that others drove her to suicide over her identity.

[Grenartia]

I've unfortunately got a some experience with it as well (thankfully I also learned how to manage it). But you were more eloquent than I could've hoped to be.

Everyone has their skeletons, demons, cracks in a vase. No-one is immune to troubles, no-one is immune to depression or suicide, they do not discriminate - yet, for some odd reason we still do. Everyone has a breaking point, and some are better at hiding their cracks than others. The thing is, there is this twisted misconception in society, that people who are depressed, we're broken - there's something wrong with us, we do not function in society like we should, and thus, we must be weak or an outcast. It's that kind of fear of rejection, or being made to feel inferior that makes it very difficult to find help.

The thing is though, everyone is broken in some-way, there are no exceptions - we are far from perfect, and people will argue God doesn't make mistakes. He didn't - not a single person on this planet is a mistake to God, we're the ones who say that, he doesn't.

Suicide is never the answer - yes, but it isn't cowardice. It isn't dishonourable, such sentiments are rather redundant and does little to help when the person has already slipped, Death is permanent, there is no reset or replay - simply helping someone though, that is painless. Cowards are those that turn their backs on those who need help, unwilling to help, or hoping that if you ignore the problem it will go away - that's cowardice.

I can not think of a coward who is willing to stand on the edge of life and death, and stare death straight in the face as they desperately battle to survive. When all they want to do is live, they're pulled to that cliff, yet still defiantly try and stare off death.

For those of us who may have more cracks in our vase than others, or struggle to hold so many pieces together when the world sits around watching with a wry grin, as if to mock you to let it all fall apart - the people who can do that, and hide those cracks for years, never giving any obvious indication that something is wrong, yet leaves a subtle trail of breadcrumbs to the words of ''Help'' - those are the strongest people I have ever known.

It takes effort, it takes strength, it takes resilience and a strive to live - to keep yourself together, to smile as bright as you can and uphold your facade to people, because you don't want to be a burden, or bother people with their problems, you fee; inadequate and question yourself. That is far from being weak or a coward, those are people who live in a hell everyday, and continue to fight on, to go just one more day, just one more hour, or week, month - year even. Just one more.

Yet, when they reach out to call for help, some of us are too weak, too much of a coward to turn around and offer a hand. It is a hell, you live everyday, it burns and scrapes at the walls, wanting to devour everything you have from the inside out until your a husk. Until you feel numb, or realise that, there's no-more coping mechanisms - it wrenches out every last bit of you until you can't even cry any more. I can not think of a coward who would fight for so long against such a vile and hideous monster, but maybe the real monster isn't the one that is trying to damn you on the inside - perhaps it is society's willingness to ignore a problem when it stares them in the face, and tries to damn you on the outside.

Some of us, we may pull through and survive - there are many though who don't, their last repose rests in a door-way that closes and enfolds them - leaving only those around they have affected, questioning why they didn't help when they could have. That's the real tragedy - you can argue religion all you want people, it won't bring anybody back from the dead, it's a bit late by that point. That number will only ever tick higher, quietly, unless you recognise there is a problem, one that is costing people their lives. That doesn't just go for transgender people, that goes for everybody. Suicide is only ever a means to an end, an end to indiscriminate pain and torment, a last resort to finally find some peace.

Emptyquoting for truth.