Suicide of Leelah Alcorn

[Floating mountain]

Yet another person who doesn't understand depression.

And one who doesn't understand the consequences of queerphobia on amplifying depression. Especially when coupled with dysphoria.

The getting misgendered by everyone you come across and reminding you of the body that you hate at every turn is also good at makeing depression worse.

[Constantinopolis]

Well, I admit it. I do not understand. I'm not saying this in an accusatory tone, but in a neutral one. I simply do not understand.

To clarify, I do believe I understand depression - I've had symptoms of it at times, although never actual clinical depression. What I don't understand is the idea of suicide as something externally imposed, rather than internally chosen.

If someone could make me understand, I would genuinely appreciate it.

[Grenartia]

Well, I admit it. I do not understand. I'm not saying this in an accusatory tone, but in a neutral one. I simply do not understand.

To clarify, I do believe I understand depression - I've had symptoms of it at times, although never actual clinical depression. What I don't understand is the idea of suicide as something externally imposed, rather than internally chosen.

If someone could make me understand, I would genuinely appreciate it.

Its incredibly difficult to explain.

[Dokisu]

Well, I admit it. I do not understand. I'm not saying this in an accusatory tone, but in a neutral one. I simply do not understand.

To clarify, I do believe I understand depression - I've had symptoms of it at times, although never actual clinical depression. What I don't understand is the idea of suicide as something externally imposed, rather than internally chosen.

If someone could make me understand, I would genuinely appreciate it.

When people are talking about suicide being externally imposed they're referring to outside forces leading someone to killing themselves. So in Leelah's case when her parents refused to support her and society had and still has a transphobic attitude it lead her to feeling suicidal and eventually committing suicide.

Does that make sense? Or am I oversimplifying or misunderstanding the question?

[Liriena]

What I don't understand is the idea of suicide as something externally imposed, rather than internally chosen.

In Leelah's case in particular, she very explicitly blamed her parents' attitude towards her gender identity for her depression and the suicide it drove her to. In that case, that her suicide was "externally imposed" is not too complicated a concept: it were the actions of others that played a major part in her suicide.

In more general terms, a suicide committed while suffering from depression is an "internal choice" made while mentally/emotionally impaired.

[The unrustled jimmies]

She should have just gone for sexual rights..

[Liriena]

She should have just gone for sexual rights..

Mind clarifying?

[The unrustled jimmies]

She should have just gone for sexual rights..

Mind clarifying?

She wanted to fix society right? Well she could have done something about it instead of killing herself that's what I meant.

[Lost heros]

Mind clarifying?

She wanted to fix society right? Well she could have done something about it instead of killing herself that's what I meant.

It's hard to enact a positive change in the world when one is depressed.

[Liriena]

Mind clarifying?

She wanted to fix society right? Well she could have done something about it instead of killing herself that's what I meant.

That's easy for any of us to say. We were not in her position.

[The unrustled jimmies]

She wanted to fix society right? Well she could have done something about it instead of killing herself that's what I meant.

That's easy for any of us to say. We were not in her position.

Yeah,I see where you are going with this.

[Shilya]

Mind clarifying?

She wanted to fix society right? Well she could have done something about it instead of killing herself that's what I meant.

Fixing society is the hopeful positive side effect.

Removing her own, immediate pain is the main effect. Synergy is good, but it doesn't avoid dealing with the immediate issue.

[Zakuvia]

IRL clinical psychologist, PM if you want further clarification on that.

The idea of suicidal ideation being externally imposed is something that the community has started to look at since the first Myspace (yeah that old) bullycides started happening at the turn of the century. While it's generally agreed that suicide is homicidal aggression directed inward, there is growing traction that outside influences play a role. What we're having trouble with is on agreeing how much. Some more 'liberal' viewpoints state that it's directly causative, and that those involved should be held not just morally, but criminally liable. More 'conservative' researchers show that it's not the presence of outside stimuli like bullies, but rather the lack of emotional support centers and active family members that pose the greater harm. People who commit suicide and have blamed 'bullies' beforehand often have few actual friends in their social circles and have disengaged parents. True, they put up a good front when mourning, but it's sadly showing that they're actually largely unaware of their children's actual emotional states.

Me myself? I've not been directly affected by bullycide, other than as it pertains to my (prior) profession. Was I bullied in school? Yes. Did I have a support system in place to vent my frustration and seek remediation? Yes.

Also, the anonymity that the internet provides is oftentimes something that adolescents and teens don't understand. They feel that 'trolling' is somehow personal as they're not yet emotionally shielded against this kind of mental degradation. Also, with the rapidly shrinking world of selfies and instantaneous image sharing, embarassing incidents that would otherwise go unknown or apocryphal are now suddenly and permanently emblazoned on what amounts to a tableau of their personal lives.

My suggestion? Parents need to become more actively involved in their children's online engagements, and social media sites need to allow full access to protect or destroy personal information. The technology is in place to do this. Case in point, I was in a photo of a group of Sailors who I didn't involve myself with for a good number of months. Suddenly I'm being tagged left and right as people liked images of the photo I was automatically face-matched into by Facebook's recognition technology. Benign, but imagine if the group photo contained something I was uninvolved in that was less flattering? I could be in trouble for that, just by digital association.

As for the person in question? This is a massive failing of the parents and their understanding of their child's emotional state. While I don't see any criminal liability, this is as negligent as it gets, akin to the parent's of Eric and Dylan. Remember as I stated, suicide is internally directed homicide.

[The New World Oceania]

As for the person in question? This is a massive failing of the parents and their understanding of their child's emotional state. While I don't see any criminal liability, this is as negligent as it gets, akin to the parent's of Eric and Dylan. Remember as I stated, suicide is internally directed homicide.

An aside, but I feel Harris and Klebolds' parents aren't quite comparable to Alcorn's. The Klebolds were aware of something off about Dylan prior to the shooting, cognizant of his behavioral shifts on meeting Eric even though not particularly engaged in the relationship. The Harrises have almost never spoken except for one interview and a questioning by law enforcement, but I can confidently say Wayne and Kathy Harris were outright misled by psychiatrists (who, granted, were deliberately (probably) misled by Eric) and on that basis chose to ignore Eric. Alcorn, on the other hand, had two parents — especially her mother — who knew she was depressed and simply took steps to make the situation worse. She has the notable problem where the instigators of her depression were also in control of her mental healthcare.

[Geanna]

Well, I admit it. I do not understand. I'm not saying this in an accusatory tone, but in a neutral one. I simply do not understand.

To clarify, I do believe I understand depression - I've had symptoms of it at times, although never actual clinical depression. What I don't understand is the idea of suicide as something externally imposed, rather than internally chosen.

If someone could make me understand, I would genuinely appreciate it.

Nobody commits or contemplates suicide on a whim. It's not something where you wake up one day and go, ''I think I'll kill myself today'' - you contemplate it usually for months. Suicide and the thought of killing yourself at first is scary, but over-time you numb yourself to it, at the same time, you look for help. At this point, you try to call for help, without making it seem like you are because you're afraid of the stigma.

Telling someone who is already suicidal that it is ''all in their head'' or ''just seeking attention'' forces them to have to ask for help in such a way that isn't obvious. It also causes the person to feel even worse, 'all in their head' would make them feel like they're broken or going crazy, and ''just seeking attention'' can make them feel like they're weak, or unable to handle what's going on. People do this often, because it's a subject a lot are uncomfortable with addressing - no-one wants to talk about suicide. Then when suddenly someone they know kills themselves, it is immediate regret or grief, or the eternal 'why' - ''Why didn't I see it?'' - ''If only I did..'' - Sorry to say, at that point it's a bit lit. The signs were there, obvious at the start, and less so later.

''Suck it up'' may somehow sound like a perfect response to someone who has come to you to try and get help, but really, it is quite damaging and makes them feel even more useless or weak. Leelah was already contemplating suicide, [Reddit message], to her parents she eventually disengaged. [She stopped talking about being transgender] To them, I imagine that issue had finally passed, but that's hardly the case, what was most likely the final tipping point was Christmas. [Add in the amount of Prozac she was taking - a drug known to increase the thoughts of suicide] Her sister got these dresses and everything, she got some socks and boy clothes, it didn't seem fair, she wanted to be who she was - but had no support from her parents.

The thing is, Parents can be gods in the eyes of a child - losing that, or seeing what was probably understood as losing support, being punished in such a way, all these can potentially make the situation a little more volatile. It was at that point that she probably realised that she wouldn't be accepted by her parents - never able to live to their expectations and as such she felt incredibly worthless, she believed she was a mistake. So yes, the parents are partially accountable. The worst thing you can do to someone who is suicidal is reinforce their self-doubt.

If someone blatantly comes out and says they are contemplating suicide, Do not ignore them or brush it off - if they follow through, you will only get to deal with the regret and why you didn't help when you had the chance. As far as the arguments in regards to ''Well, they did bring her to a therapist'' - Yes, they did - a Christian one - that only sowed and fed more self-doubt due to bias.

Actual transgender therapy involves two main tasks, understanding and exploring the root cause for what is called GID - ruling out possible external triggers such as adolescent trauma, and tackling the anxiety and depression that could be associated with it. People often misunderstand T-Therapy, ultimately, you go to T-Therapy to understand why you feel this way, and to tackle your anxiety - there are Transgender people who don't feel the overwhelming need to have surgery or to completely transition, they might enjoy how they already dress [androgynously for example].

T-Therapy specialises in dealing with Transgender issues, it is only then after several months does a therapists determine if you really need to transition or need HRT. A Christian therapist, in turn, does not specialise in such issues, and thus is arguably not qualified for such, and is potential for a conflict of interest - since Religious bias.

In all, people who are suicidal or contemplating such, do not in reality, want to die - if you give them a way for help, they will take it with a little motivation. Suicide is merely the last resort - it's the last option at the bottom of a very long list of coping mechanisms, and isn't so easily thought about. People who come out and say, as have in this thread already, ''Well, y'know, I was bullied and I came out fine'' - You are apart of the problem, and are only reinforcing someone's contemplation of ending it all - you inadvertently make them feel inferior, or that they are not strong enough, because you ''came out fine''. That is far from helping. Trust me.

Dealing with depression is hard, little spurts of depression everyone has, those of us who have dealt with it everyday [I've dealt with mine for 15 years] - it is very hard to battle and manage, you lose interest in everything, it costs you relationships, friendships, jobs, people think you're being cold, or anti-social, you're off - it's not that you don't want to do things, it's just that emotionally, you have no energy to do them. One day you may be a little fine, the next, you really don't even want to get out of bed, these periods can last for months. 24/7 you feel like you're gridlocked in a constant and merciless civil-war, one side wants you to be happier, the other side wants to give up. It wears on you emotionally, mentally and physically, and should never be considered a light thing, it takes a lot of strength to handle depression, and it'll drain you. If anyone comes out and announces they want to kill themselves, help them, or else when it is too late, well, it's too late and you'll be the one left with the regret.

In conclusion; Be careful what you say, if it's something you don't fully understand, research it, find some resources and help. Suicide isn't the answer, but it's not a decision that is thought about or considered lightly - you should never ignore someone or assume they just want attention if they come to you for help. You may be their very last name on that long list, that sits just above ''Suicide''. One person can be all it takes to help.

[Nei Pennsilfaani]

IRL clinical psychologist, PM if you want further clarification on that.

The idea of suicidal ideation being externally imposed is something that the community has started to look at since the first Myspace (yeah that old) bullycides started happening at the turn of the century. While it's generally agreed that suicide is homicidal aggression directed inward, there is growing traction that outside influences play a role. What we're having trouble with is on agreeing how much. Some more 'liberal' viewpoints state that it's directly causative, and that those involved should be held not just morally, but criminally liable. More 'conservative' researchers show that it's not the presence of outside stimuli like bullies, but rather the lack of emotional support centers and active family members that pose the greater harm. People who commit suicide and have blamed 'bullies' beforehand often have few actual friends in their social circles and have disengaged parents. True, they put up a good front when mourning, but it's sadly showing that they're actually largely unaware of their children's actual emotional states.

Me myself? I've not been directly affected by bullycide, other than as it pertains to my (prior) profession. Was I bullied in school? Yes. Did I have a support system in place to vent my frustration and seek remediation? Yes.

Also, the anonymity that the internet provides is oftentimes something that adolescents and teens don't understand. They feel that 'trolling' is somehow personal as they're not yet emotionally shielded against this kind of mental degradation. Also, with the rapidly shrinking world of selfies and instantaneous image sharing, embarassing incidents that would otherwise go unknown or apocryphal are now suddenly and permanently emblazoned on what amounts to a tableau of their personal lives.

My suggestion? Parents need to become more actively involved in their children's online engagements, and social media sites need to allow full access to protect or destroy personal information. The technology is in place to do this. Case in point, I was in a photo of a group of Sailors who I didn't involve myself with for a good number of months. Suddenly I'm being tagged left and right as people liked images of the photo I was automatically face-matched into by Facebook's recognition technology. Benign, but imagine if the group photo contained something I was uninvolved in that was less flattering? I could be in trouble for that, just by digital association.

As for the person in question? This is a massive failing of the parents and their understanding of their child's emotional state. While I don't see any criminal liability, this is as negligent as it gets, akin to the parent's of Eric and Dylan. Remember as I stated, suicide is internally directed homicide.

Suicide as internally directed homicide? When was that decided, and why was I not invited to the meeting?

I have never heard anyone seriously espouse that view, except perhaps when talking about psychodynamic theory.

[Grenartia]

Well, I admit it. I do not understand. I'm not saying this in an accusatory tone, but in a neutral one. I simply do not understand.

To clarify, I do believe I understand depression - I've had symptoms of it at times, although never actual clinical depression. What I don't understand is the idea of suicide as something externally imposed, rather than internally chosen.

If someone could make me understand, I would genuinely appreciate it.

Nobody commits or contemplates suicide on a whim. It's not something where you wake up one day and go, ''I think I'll kill myself today'' - you contemplate it usually for months. Suicide and the thought of killing yourself at first is scary, but over-time you numb yourself to it, at the same time, you look for help. At this point, you try to call for help, without making it seem like you are because you're afraid of the stigma.

Telling someone who is already suicidal that it is ''all in their head'' or ''just seeking attention'' forces them to have to ask for help in such a way that isn't obvious. It also causes the person to feel even worse, 'all in their head' would make them feel like they're broken or going crazy, and ''just seeking attention'' can make them feel like they're weak, or unable to handle what's going on. People do this often, because it's a subject a lot are uncomfortable with addressing - no-one wants to talk about suicide. Then when suddenly someone they know kills themselves, it is immediate regret or grief, or the eternal 'why' - ''Why didn't I see it?'' - ''If only I did..'' - Sorry to say, at that point it's a bit lit. The signs were there, obvious at the start, and less so later.

''Suck it up'' may somehow sound like a perfect response to someone who has come to you to try and get help, but really, it is quite damaging and makes them feel even more useless or weak. Leelah was already contemplating suicide, [Reddit message], to her parents she eventually disengaged. [She stopped talking about being transgender] To them, I imagine that issue had finally passed, but that's hardly the case, what was most likely the final tipping point was Christmas. [Add in the amount of Prozac she was taking - a drug known to increase the thoughts of suicide] Her sister got these dresses and everything, she got some socks and boy clothes, it didn't seem fair, she wanted to be who she was - but had no support from her parents.

The thing is, Parents can be gods in the eyes of a child - losing that, or seeing what was probably understood as losing support, being punished in such a way, all these can potentially make the situation a little more volatile. It was at that point that she probably realised that she wouldn't be accepted by her parents - never able to live to their expectations and as such she felt incredibly worthless, she believed she was a mistake. So yes, the parents are partially accountable. The worst thing you can do to someone who is suicidal is reinforce their self-doubt.

If someone blatantly comes out and says they are contemplating suicide, Do not ignore them or brush it off - if they follow through, you will only get to deal with the regret and why you didn't help when you had the chance. As far as the arguments in regards to ''Well, they did bring her to a therapist'' - Yes, they did - a Christian one - that only sowed and fed more self-doubt due to bias.

Actual transgender therapy involves two main tasks, understanding and exploring the root cause for what is called GID - ruling out possible external triggers such as adolescent trauma, and tackling the anxiety and depression that could be associated with it. People often misunderstand T-Therapy, ultimately, you go to T-Therapy to understand why you feel this way, and to tackle your anxiety - there are Transgender people who don't feel the overwhelming need to have surgery or to completely transition, they might enjoy how they already dress [androgynously for example].

T-Therapy specialises in dealing with Transgender issues, it is only then after several months does a therapists determine if you really need to transition or need HRT. A Christian therapist, in turn, does not specialise in such issues, and thus is arguably not qualified for such, and is potential for a conflict of interest - since Religious bias.

In all, people who are suicidal or contemplating such, do not in reality, want to die - if you give them a way for help, they will take it with a little motivation. Suicide is merely the last resort - it's the last option at the bottom of a very long list of coping mechanisms, and isn't so easily thought about. People who come out and say, as have in this thread already, ''Well, y'know, I was bullied and I came out fine'' - You are apart of the problem, and are only reinforcing someone's contemplation of ending it all - you inadvertently make them feel inferior, or that they are not strong enough, because you ''came out fine''. That is far from helping. Trust me.

Dealing with depression is hard, little spurts of depression everyone has, those of us who have dealt with it everyday [I've dealt with mine for 15 years] - it is very hard to battle and manage, you lose interest in everything, it costs you relationships, friendships, jobs, people think you're being cold, or anti-social, you're off - it's not that you don't want to do things, it's just that emotionally, you have no energy to do them. One day you may be a little fine, the next, you really don't even want to get out of bed, these periods can last for months. 24/7 you feel like you're gridlocked in a constant and merciless civil-war, one side wants you to be happier, the other side wants to give up. It wears on you emotionally, mentally and physically, and should never be considered a light thing, it takes a lot of strength to handle depression, and it'll drain you. If anyone comes out and announces they want to kill themselves, help them, or else when it is too late, well, it's too late and you'll be the one left with the regret.

In conclusion; Be careful what you say, if it's something you don't fully understand, research it, find some resources and help. Suicide isn't the answer, but it's not a decision that is thought about or considered lightly - you should never ignore someone or assume they just want attention if they come to you for help. You may be their very last name on that long list, that sits just above ''Suicide''. One person can be all it takes to help.

You must be a carpenter, because you hit the nail on the head.

[Geanna]

Nobody commits or contemplates suicide on a whim. It's not something where you wake up one day and go, ''I think I'll kill myself today'' - you contemplate it usually for months. Suicide and the thought of killing yourself at first is scary, but over-time you numb yourself to it, at the same time, you look for help. At this point, you try to call for help, without making it seem like you are because you're afraid of the stigma.

Telling someone who is already suicidal that it is ''all in their head'' or ''just seeking attention'' forces them to have to ask for help in such a way that isn't obvious. It also causes the person to feel even worse, 'all in their head' would make them feel like they're broken or going crazy, and ''just seeking attention'' can make them feel like they're weak, or unable to handle what's going on. People do this often, because it's a subject a lot are uncomfortable with addressing - no-one wants to talk about suicide. Then when suddenly someone they know kills themselves, it is immediate regret or grief, or the eternal 'why' - ''Why didn't I see it?'' - ''If only I did..'' - Sorry to say, at that point it's a bit lit. The signs were there, obvious at the start, and less so later.

''Suck it up'' may somehow sound like a perfect response to someone who has come to you to try and get help, but really, it is quite damaging and makes them feel even more useless or weak. Leelah was already contemplating suicide, [Reddit message], to her parents she eventually disengaged. [She stopped talking about being transgender] To them, I imagine that issue had finally passed, but that's hardly the case, what was most likely the final tipping point was Christmas. [Add in the amount of Prozac she was taking - a drug known to increase the thoughts of suicide] Her sister got these dresses and everything, she got some socks and boy clothes, it didn't seem fair, she wanted to be who she was - but had no support from her parents.

The thing is, Parents can be gods in the eyes of a child - losing that, or seeing what was probably understood as losing support, being punished in such a way, all these can potentially make the situation a little more volatile. It was at that point that she probably realised that she wouldn't be accepted by her parents - never able to live to their expectations and as such she felt incredibly worthless, she believed she was a mistake. So yes, the parents are partially accountable. The worst thing you can do to someone who is suicidal is reinforce their self-doubt.

If someone blatantly comes out and says they are contemplating suicide, Do not ignore them or brush it off - if they follow through, you will only get to deal with the regret and why you didn't help when you had the chance. As far as the arguments in regards to ''Well, they did bring her to a therapist'' - Yes, they did - a Christian one - that only sowed and fed more self-doubt due to bias.

Actual transgender therapy involves two main tasks, understanding and exploring the root cause for what is called GID - ruling out possible external triggers such as adolescent trauma, and tackling the anxiety and depression that could be associated with it. People often misunderstand T-Therapy, ultimately, you go to T-Therapy to understand why you feel this way, and to tackle your anxiety - there are Transgender people who don't feel the overwhelming need to have surgery or to completely transition, they might enjoy how they already dress [androgynously for example].

T-Therapy specialises in dealing with Transgender issues, it is only then after several months does a therapists determine if you really need to transition or need HRT. A Christian therapist, in turn, does not specialise in such issues, and thus is arguably not qualified for such, and is potential for a conflict of interest - since Religious bias.

In all, people who are suicidal or contemplating such, do not in reality, want to die - if you give them a way for help, they will take it with a little motivation. Suicide is merely the last resort - it's the last option at the bottom of a very long list of coping mechanisms, and isn't so easily thought about. People who come out and say, as have in this thread already, ''Well, y'know, I was bullied and I came out fine'' - You are apart of the problem, and are only reinforcing someone's contemplation of ending it all - you inadvertently make them feel inferior, or that they are not strong enough, because you ''came out fine''. That is far from helping. Trust me.

Dealing with depression is hard, little spurts of depression everyone has, those of us who have dealt with it everyday [I've dealt with mine for 15 years] - it is very hard to battle and manage, you lose interest in everything, it costs you relationships, friendships, jobs, people think you're being cold, or anti-social, you're off - it's not that you don't want to do things, it's just that emotionally, you have no energy to do them. One day you may be a little fine, the next, you really don't even want to get out of bed, these periods can last for months. 24/7 you feel like you're gridlocked in a constant and merciless civil-war, one side wants you to be happier, the other side wants to give up. It wears on you emotionally, mentally and physically, and should never be considered a light thing, it takes a lot of strength to handle depression, and it'll drain you. If anyone comes out and announces they want to kill themselves, help them, or else when it is too late, well, it's too late and you'll be the one left with the regret.

In conclusion; Be careful what you say, if it's something you don't fully understand, research it, find some resources and help. Suicide isn't the answer, but it's not a decision that is thought about or considered lightly - you should never ignore someone or assume they just want attention if they come to you for help. You may be their very last name on that long list, that sits just above ''Suicide''. One person can be all it takes to help.

You must be a carpenter, because you hit the nail on the head.

I speak a lot from experience unfortunately, and it is because of that experience and learning how to deal and read my emotions that has made me have a handle on my depression to at least manageable levels.

[Grenartia]

You must be a carpenter, because you hit the nail on the head.

I speak a lot from experience unfortunately, and it is because of that experience and learning how to deal and read my emotions that has made me have a handle on my depression to at least manageable levels.

I've unfortunately got a some experience with it as well (thankfully I also learned how to manage it). But you were more eloquent than I could've hoped to be.

[Geanna]

I speak a lot from experience unfortunately, and it is because of that experience and learning how to deal and read my emotions that has made me have a handle on my depression to at least manageable levels.

I've unfortunately got a some experience with it as well (thankfully I also learned how to manage it). But you were more eloquent than I could've hoped to be.

Everyone has their skeletons, demons, cracks in a vase. No-one is immune to troubles, no-one is immune to depression or suicide, they do not discriminate - yet, for some odd reason we still do. Everyone has a breaking point, and some are better at hiding their cracks than others. The thing is, there is this twisted misconception in society, that people who are depressed, we're broken - there's something wrong with us, we do not function in society like we should, and thus, we must be weak or an outcast. It's that kind of fear of rejection, or being made to feel inferior that makes it very difficult to find help.

The thing is though, everyone is broken in some-way, there are no exceptions - we are far from perfect, and people will argue God doesn't make mistakes. He didn't - not a single person on this planet is a mistake to God, we're the ones who say that, he doesn't.

Suicide is never the answer - yes, but it isn't cowardice. It isn't dishonourable, such sentiments are rather redundant and does little to help when the person has already slipped, Death is permanent, there is no reset or replay - simply helping someone though, that is painless. Cowards are those that turn their backs on those who need help, unwilling to help, or hoping that if you ignore the problem it will go away - that's cowardice.

I can not think of a coward who is willing to stand on the edge of life and death, and stare death straight in the face as they desperately battle to survive. When all they want to do is live, they're pulled to that cliff, yet still defiantly try and stare off death.

For those of us who may have more cracks in our vase than others, or struggle to hold so many pieces together when the world sits around watching with a wry grin, as if to mock you to let it all fall apart - the people who can do that, and hide those cracks for years, never giving any obvious indication that something is wrong, yet leaves a subtle trail of breadcrumbs to the words of ''Help'' - those are the strongest people I have ever known.

It takes effort, it takes strength, it takes resilience and a strive to live - to keep yourself together, to smile as bright as you can and uphold your facade to people, because you don't want to be a burden, or bother people with their problems, you fee; inadequate and question yourself. That is far from being weak or a coward, those are people who live in a hell everyday, and continue to fight on, to go just one more day, just one more hour, or week, month - year even. Just one more.

Yet, when they reach out to call for help, some of us are too weak, too much of a coward to turn around and offer a hand. It is a hell, you live everyday, it burns and scrapes at the walls, wanting to devour everything you have from the inside out until your a husk. Until you feel numb, or realise that, there's no-more coping mechanisms - it wrenches out every last bit of you until you can't even cry any more. I can not think of a coward who would fight for so long against such a vile and hideous monster, but maybe the real monster isn't the one that is trying to damn you on the inside - perhaps it is society's willingness to ignore a problem when it stares them in the face, and tries to damn you on the outside.

Some of us, we may pull through and survive - there are many though who don't, their last repose rests in a door-way that closes and enfolds them - leaving only those around they have affected, questioning why they didn't help when they could have. That's the real tragedy - you can argue religion all you want people, it won't bring anybody back from the dead, it's a bit late by that point. That number will only ever tick higher, quietly, unless you recognise there is a problem, one that is costing people their lives. That doesn't just go for transgender people, that goes for everybody. Suicide is only ever a means to an end, an end to indiscriminate pain and torment, a last resort to finally find some peace.

[Neutraligon]

I've unfortunately got a some experience with it as well (thankfully I also learned how to manage it). But you were more eloquent than I could've hoped to be.

Everyone has their skeletons, demons, cracks in a vase. No-one is immune to troubles, no-one is immune to depression or suicide, they do not discriminate - yet, for some odd reason we still do. Everyone has a breaking point, and some are better at hiding their cracks than others. The thing is, there is this twisted misconception in society, that people who are depressed, we're broken - there's something wrong with us, we do not function in society like we should, and thus, we must be weak or an outcast. It's that kind of fear of rejection, or being made to feel inferior that makes it very difficult to find help.

The thing is though, everyone is broken in some-way, there are no exceptions - we are far from perfect, and people will argue God doesn't make mistakes. He didn't - not a single person on this planet is a mistake to God, we're the ones who say that, he doesn't.

Suicide is never the answer - yes, but it isn't cowardice. It isn't dishonourable, such sentiments are rather redundant and does little to help when the person has already slipped, Death is permanent, there is no reset or replay - simply helping someone though, that is painless. Cowards are those that turn their backs on those who need help, unwilling to help, or hoping that if you ignore the problem it will go away - that's cowardice.

I can not think of a coward who is willing to stand on the edge of life and death, and stare death straight in the face as they desperately battle to survive. When all they want to do is live, they're pulled to that cliff, yet still defiantly try and stare off death.

For those of us who may have more cracks in our vase than others, or struggle to hold so many pieces together when the world sits around watching with a wry grin, as if to mock you to let it all fall apart - the people who can do that, and hide those cracks for years, never giving any obvious indication that something is wrong, yet leaves a subtle trail of breadcrumbs to the words of ''Help'' - those are the strongest people I have ever known.

It takes effort, it takes strength, it takes resilience and a strive to live - to keep yourself together, to smile as bright as you can and uphold your facade to people, because you don't want to be a burden, or bother people with their problems, you fee; inadequate and question yourself. That is far from being weak or a coward, those are people who live in a hell everyday, and continue to fight on, to go just one more day, just one more hour, or week, month - year even. Just one more.

Yet, when they reach out to call for help, some of us are too weak, too much of a coward to turn around and offer a hand. It is a hell, you live everyday, it burns and scrapes at the walls, wanting to devour everything you have from the inside out until your a husk. Until you feel numb, or realise that, there's no-more coping mechanisms - it wrenches out every last bit of you until you can't even cry any more. I can not think of a coward who would fight for so long against such a vile and hideous monster, but maybe the real monster isn't the one that is trying to damn you on the inside - perhaps it is society's willingness to ignore a problem when it stares them in the face, and tries to damn you on the outside.

Some of us, we may pull through and survive - there are many though who don't, their last repose rests in a door-way that closes and enfolds them - leaving only those around they have affected, questioning why they didn't help when they could have. That's the real tragedy - you can argue religion all you want people, it won't bring anybody back from the dead, it's a bit late by that point. That number will only ever tick higher, quietly, unless you recognise there is a problem, one that is costing people their lives. That doesn't just go for transgender people, that goes for everybody. Suicide is only ever a means to an end, an end to indiscriminate pain and torment, a last resort to finally find some peace.

The thing is, there is this twisted misconception in society, that people who are depressed, we're broken - there's something wrong with us, we do not function in society like we should, and thus, we must be weak or an outcast. It's that kind of fear of rejection, or being made to feel inferior that makes it very difficult to find help.

That is something I have had to deal with since my own parent is I am very sure depressed (refuses to deal). That parent constantly asks if something is wrong with them, I try to help, but I am scared I am making things worse not better. There was a time I feared that person was suicidal, since then I think they have gotten better but...I am still scared.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Everyone has their skeletons, demons, cracks in a vase. No-one is immune to troubles, no-one is immune to depression or suicide, they do not discriminate - yet, for some odd reason we still do. Everyone has a breaking point, and some are better at hiding their cracks than others. The thing is, there is this twisted misconception in society, that people who are depressed, we're broken - there's something wrong with us, we do not function in society like we should, and thus, we must be weak or an outcast. It's that kind of fear of rejection, or being made to feel inferior that makes it very difficult to find help.

The thing is though, everyone is broken in some-way, there are no exceptions - we are far from perfect, and people will argue God doesn't make mistakes. He didn't - not a single person on this planet is a mistake to God, we're the ones who say that, he doesn't.

Suicide is never the answer - yes, but it isn't cowardice. It isn't dishonourable, such sentiments are rather redundant and does little to help when the person has already slipped, Death is permanent, there is no reset or replay - simply helping someone though, that is painless. Cowards are those that turn their backs on those who need help, unwilling to help, or hoping that if you ignore the problem it will go away - that's cowardice.

I can not think of a coward who is willing to stand on the edge of life and death, and stare death straight in the face as they desperately battle to survive. When all they want to do is live, they're pulled to that cliff, yet still defiantly try and stare off death.

For those of us who may have more cracks in our vase than others, or struggle to hold so many pieces together when the world sits around watching with a wry grin, as if to mock you to let it all fall apart - the people who can do that, and hide those cracks for years, never giving any obvious indication that something is wrong, yet leaves a subtle trail of breadcrumbs to the words of ''Help'' - those are the strongest people I have ever known.

It takes effort, it takes strength, it takes resilience and a strive to live - to keep yourself together, to smile as bright as you can and uphold your facade to people, because you don't want to be a burden, or bother people with their problems, you fee; inadequate and question yourself. That is far from being weak or a coward, those are people who live in a hell everyday, and continue to fight on, to go just one more day, just one more hour, or week, month - year even. Just one more.

Yet, when they reach out to call for help, some of us are too weak, too much of a coward to turn around and offer a hand. It is a hell, you live everyday, it burns and scrapes at the walls, wanting to devour everything you have from the inside out until your a husk. Until you feel numb, or realise that, there's no-more coping mechanisms - it wrenches out every last bit of you until you can't even cry any more. I can not think of a coward who would fight for so long against such a vile and hideous monster, but maybe the real monster isn't the one that is trying to damn you on the inside - perhaps it is society's willingness to ignore a problem when it stares them in the face, and tries to damn you on the outside.

Some of us, we may pull through and survive - there are many though who don't, their last repose rests in a door-way that closes and enfolds them - leaving only those around they have affected, questioning why they didn't help when they could have. That's the real tragedy - you can argue religion all you want people, it won't bring anybody back from the dead, it's a bit late by that point. That number will only ever tick higher, quietly, unless you recognise there is a problem, one that is costing people their lives. That doesn't just go for transgender people, that goes for everybody. Suicide is only ever a means to an end, an end to indiscriminate pain and torment, a last resort to finally find some peace.

The thing is, there is this twisted misconception in society, that people who are depressed, we're broken - there's something wrong with us, we do not function in society like we should, and thus, we must be weak or an outcast. It's that kind of fear of rejection, or being made to feel inferior that makes it very difficult to find help.

That is something I have had to deal with since my own parent is I am very sure depressed (refuses to deal). That parent constantly asks if something is wrong with them, I try to help, but I am scared I am making things worse not better. There was a time I feared that person was suicidal, since then I think they have gotten better but...I am still scared.

If they're suicidal, then yes, there is something wrong with them -- not in the sense of being a bad person or worthless, but in the same sense that someone who has the flu, cancer, Ebola, etc. has something wrong with them.

[Zakuvia]

Suicide as internally directed homicide? When was that decided, and why was I not invited to the meeting?

I have never heard anyone seriously espouse that view, except perhaps when talking about psychodynamic theory.

That is indeed how it started, but that's been the prevailing wind. Now, don't fool yourself into thinking that law has anything to do with therapy, but the law does coincide in this case with the idea. By that I mean, have you ever wondered why it's considered a crime to commit suicide? Seems sort of redundant, but if you look at how it's written, suicide is again described as self-directed homicide.

Also, let's look apart from that and take a look at homicidal ideation and suicidal ideation. Both involve the concerted act of ending the life of a human being. To most, the fact that the individual targeted is the self is irrelevant. It's the aggressive action taken that's the more telling.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Suicide as internally directed homicide? When was that decided, and why was I not invited to the meeting?

I have never heard anyone seriously espouse that view, except perhaps when talking about psychodynamic theory.

That is indeed how it started, but that's been the prevailing wind. Now, don't fool yourself into thinking that law has anything to do with therapy, but the law does coincide in this case with the idea. By that I mean, have you ever wondered why it's considered a crime to commit suicide? Seems sort of redundant, but if you look at how it's written, suicide is again described as self-directed homicide.

Also, let's look apart from that and take a look at homicidal ideation and suicidal ideation. Both involve the concerted act of ending the life of a human being. To most, the fact that the individual targeted is the self is irrelevant. It's the aggressive action taken that's the more telling.

Not everywhere considers it a crime to commit suicide.

[Herskerstad]

That is indeed how it started, but that's been the prevailing wind. Now, don't fool yourself into thinking that law has anything to do with therapy, but the law does coincide in this case with the idea. By that I mean, have you ever wondered why it's considered a crime to commit suicide? Seems sort of redundant, but if you look at how it's written, suicide is again described as self-directed homicide.

Also, let's look apart from that and take a look at homicidal ideation and suicidal ideation. Both involve the concerted act of ending the life of a human being. To most, the fact that the individual targeted is the self is irrelevant. It's the aggressive action taken that's the more telling.

Not everywhere considers it a crime to commit suicide.

I've always found that law strange. I mean, attempted suicide is not likely to be prosecuted. Anything post suicide would be largely irrelevant to the person, would it not?

Aiding others to commit suicide is of course an entirely different thing. Or going as far as to foster so called depraved heart murders.