Suicide of Leelah Alcorn

[The Emerald Dragon]

I'm seriously confused about this.

Should I label him/her as their biological gender, the gender the parents' accept or the one he/she wanted?


I mean I wrote a post in a roleplay about it less than half an hour ago, but it's easier when you're the one making a character.

You should label her as a she because she was a women. You should always use the pronouns that someone says that they use and the gender that they say they are because they are that gender.

Thanks.

But anyway, I know I'll get a lot of - "U wot m8???" when I say this but...

I understand her parents' views i think.

They probably thought it was just a phase, I mean we all say things we don't mean when we're this age.(not saying that she didn't mean she wanted to be a girl) Let alone the cost, which I assume wouldn't be covered by insurance which would cause her parents to go off on one. Then there's the religious side, which is BS, I mean transgender people weren't a thing in ancient Judea/Egypt etc. (I mean, they weren't discovered or were ignored because the technology wasn't there) So there couldn't be anything about it in the Bible.

[Floating mountain]

You should label her as a she because she was a women. You should always use the pronouns that someone says that they use and the gender that they say they are because they are that gender.

Also, there's no such thing as "biological gender". There's only biological sex (which has no bearing on gender or pronouns), and gender, which is psychological, and is what pronoun usage goes off of.

If someone is trying to start to understand gender I generally don't bring that up right away. You are correct though. There is no "biological gender" that is sex which is not the same as gender.

[The Emerald Dragon]

Also, there's no such thing as "biological gender". There's only biological sex (which has no bearing on gender or pronouns), and gender, which is psychological, and is what pronoun usage goes off of.

If someone is trying to start to understand gender I generally don't bring that up right away. You are correct though. There is no "biological gender" that is sex which is not the same as gender.

Apologies, I know the difference, I just got confused in the heat of the moment.

[Val Halla]

You should label her as a she because she was a women. You should always use the pronouns that someone says that they use and the gender that they say they are because they are that gender.

Thanks.

But anyway, I know I'll get a lot of - "U wot m8???" when I say this but...

I understand her parents' views i think.

They probably thought it was just a phase, I mean we all say things we don't mean when we're this age.(not saying that she didn't mean she wanted to be a girl) Let alone the cost, which I assume wouldn't be covered by insurance which would cause her parents to go off on one. Then there's the religious side, which is BS, I mean transgender people weren't a thing in ancient Judea/Egypt etc. (I mean, they weren't discovered or were ignored because the technology wasn't there) So there couldn't be anything about it in the Bible.

If I am interpretting what you write correctly, you said you believed their parents stand point was just a result of them misusing the phrase. But in that case, how could they have got it wrong all these years. Yeah, religion wise, the bible said nothing about transgender people, but a lot of it is open to interpretation. Cost wise, I would have paid up all my money to make my daughter happy.

[Floating mountain]

You should label her as a she because she was a women. You should always use the pronouns that someone says that they use and the gender that they say they are because they are that gender.

Thanks.

But anyway, I know I'll get a lot of - "U wot m8???" when I say this but...

I understand her parents' views i think.

They probably thought it was just a phase, I mean we all say things we don't mean when we're this age.(not saying that she didn't mean she wanted to be a girl) Let alone the cost, which I assume wouldn't be covered by insurance which would cause her parents to go off on one. Then there's the religious side, which is BS, I mean transgender people weren't a thing in ancient Judea/Egypt etc. (I mean, they weren't discovered or were ignored because the technology wasn't there) So there couldn't be anything about it in the Bible.

Being trans is not exactly something people pretend to be because who would willingly want to undergo all the abuse and difficulties that come along with being trans. Coverage of transition varies by state but it probably wasn't covered in her state.

Well there has been trans people so long as their have been gender roles. the first example that comes to my head is the roman emperor Elagabalus who was very likely a trans women. and I'm sure that their are older examples but i dont know them off the top of my head.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

[Floating mountain]

If someone is trying to start to understand gender I generally don't bring that up right away. You are correct though. There is no "biological gender" that is sex which is not the same as gender.

Apologies, I know the difference, I just got confused in the heat of the moment.

Well at least you know the difference even if you couldn't remember the phrase off the top of your head. We all forget a word sometimes.

[Potenco]

Thanks.

But anyway, I know I'll get a lot of - "U wot m8???" when I say this but...

I understand her parents' views i think.

They probably thought it was just a phase, I mean we all say things we don't mean when we're this age.(not saying that she didn't mean she wanted to be a girl) Let alone the cost, which I assume wouldn't be covered by insurance which would cause her parents to go off on one. Then there's the religious side, which is BS, I mean transgender people weren't a thing in ancient Judea/Egypt etc. (I mean, they weren't discovered or were ignored because the technology wasn't there) So there couldn't be anything about it in the Bible.

Being trans is not exactly something people pretend to be because who would willingly want to undergo all the abuse and difficulties that come along with being trans. Coverage of transition varies by state but it probably wasn't covered in her state.

Well there has been trans people so long as their have been gender roles. the first example that comes to my head is the roman emperor Elagabalus who was very likely a trans women. and I'm sure that their are older examples but i dont know them off the top of my head.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

WHats hilarious is my mother has gotten big on the idea of accusing me of being trans as a choice, and "not understanding womanhood"

WHats sad is, my abuse isnt coming from a fundamentalist christian, but just a grouchy second wave feminist! (im a Marxist/trans instersectional feminist bad bitch btw, not knocking on feminism in the least)

[Floating mountain]

Thanks.

But anyway, I know I'll get a lot of - "U wot m8???" when I say this but...

I understand her parents' views i think.

They probably thought it was just a phase, I mean we all say things we don't mean when we're this age.(not saying that she didn't mean she wanted to be a girl) Let alone the cost, which I assume wouldn't be covered by insurance which would cause her parents to go off on one. Then there's the religious side, which is BS, I mean transgender people weren't a thing in ancient Judea/Egypt etc. (I mean, they weren't discovered or were ignored because the technology wasn't there) So there couldn't be anything about it in the Bible.

If I am interpretting what you write correctly, you said you believed their parents stand point was just a result of them misusing the phrase. But in that case, how could they have got it wrong all these years. Yeah, religion wise, the bible said nothing about transgender people, but a lot of it is open to interpretation. Cost wise, I would have paid up all my money to make my daughter happy.

The bolded would make you a great parent.

[Noraika]

If I am interpretting what you write correctly, you said you believed their parents stand point was just a result of them misusing the phrase. But in that case, how could they have got it wrong all these years. Yeah, religion wise, the bible said nothing about transgender people, but a lot of it is open to interpretation. Cost wise, I would have paid up all my money to make my daughter happy.

Even without pursuing HRT or SRS, the support and acknowledgement of parents to transgender and transsexual children is something which can bring them reassurance and a feeling of being accepted. Friends and especially family accepting them for who they are is something which can give them the ability to shrug off the opinions and treatment of strangers and the support they need emotionally and socially when things get rough.

On the topic of the suicide of Leelah, I think it is extraordinarily sad that she choose to take her life, but I don't think that it is ultimately going to resolve the situation of transsexuals and transgenders relatively soon, or on its own accord. I can only hope she rests in peace, and that the attention given to her case can assist in working towards a change in the way society treats transgender and transsexual people.

[Floating mountain]

Being trans is not exactly something people pretend to be because who would willingly want to undergo all the abuse and difficulties that come along with being trans. Coverage of transition varies by state but it probably wasn't covered in her state.

Well there has been trans people so long as their have been gender roles. the first example that comes to my head is the roman emperor Elagabalus who was very likely a trans women. and I'm sure that their are older examples but i dont know them off the top of my head.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

WHats hilarious is my mother has gotten big on the idea of accusing me of being trans as a choice, and "not understanding womanhood"

WHats sad is, my abuse isnt coming from a fundamentalist christian, but just a grouchy second wave feminist! (im a Marxist/trans instersectional feminist bad bitch btw, not knocking on feminism in the least)

Yeah I get that. my parents think its a phase meant to annoy them. sucks alot because obviously i would just love to be at risk of abuse. But my parents are christian so it makes more sense then that.

[Grenartia]

Being trans is not exactly something people pretend to be because who would willingly want to undergo all the abuse and difficulties that come along with being trans. Coverage of transition varies by state but it probably wasn't covered in her state.

Well there has been trans people so long as their have been gender roles. the first example that comes to my head is the roman emperor Elagabalus who was very likely a trans women. and I'm sure that their are older examples but i dont know them off the top of my head.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

WHats hilarious is my mother has gotten big on the idea of accusing me of being trans as a choice, and "not understanding womanhood"

WHats sad is, my abuse isnt coming from a fundamentalist christian, but just a grouchy second wave feminist! (im a Marxist/trans instersectional feminist bad bitch btw, not knocking on feminism in the least)

So, a TERF-lite?

[Floating mountain]

WHats hilarious is my mother has gotten big on the idea of accusing me of being trans as a choice, and "not understanding womanhood"

WHats sad is, my abuse isnt coming from a fundamentalist christian, but just a grouchy second wave feminist! (im a Marxist/trans instersectional feminist bad bitch btw, not knocking on feminism in the least)

So, a TERF-lite?

sounds like it.

[MERIZoC]

Being trans is not exactly something people pretend to be because who would willingly want to undergo all the abuse and difficulties that come along with being trans. Coverage of transition varies by state but it probably wasn't covered in her state.

Well there has been trans people so long as their have been gender roles. the first example that comes to my head is the roman emperor Elagabalus who was very likely a trans women. and I'm sure that their are older examples but i dont know them off the top of my head.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

WHats hilarious is my mother has gotten big on the idea of accusing me of being trans as a choice, and "not understanding womanhood"

WHats sad is, my abuse isnt coming from a fundamentalist christian, but just a grouchy second wave feminist! (im a Marxist/trans instersectional feminist bad bitch btw, not knocking on feminism in the least)

Ah, that sucks.

[Grenartia]

WHats hilarious is my mother has gotten big on the idea of accusing me of being trans as a choice, and "not understanding womanhood"

WHats sad is, my abuse isnt coming from a fundamentalist christian, but just a grouchy second wave feminist! (im a Marxist/trans instersectional feminist bad bitch btw, not knocking on feminism in the least)

Yeah I get that. my parents think its a phase meant to annoy them. sucks alot because obviously i would just love to be at risk of abuse. But my parents are christian so it makes more sense then that.

I guess the one good thing about being in the closet for over 3 years is that when I come out, I can safely tell them what a load of bullshit it is if they tell me its "just a phase". I'm pretty fucking sure phases don't last nearly that long.

[Constantinopolis]

I will never be able to understand people who kill themselves and blame someone else for this act.

I understand that Alcorn's life was quite bad. But I am also very certain that there are literally over a billion people in the world whose lives are worse than hers, and yet they do not all commit suicide.

So no, I'm sorry, but "people were horrible to me and drove me to suicide" is not a valid argument. Not unless they're doing something like brutally torturing you after murdering your entire family in front of your eyes.

[MERIZoC]

I will never be able to understand people who kill themselves and blame someone else for this act.

I understand that Alcorn's life was quite bad. But I am also very certain that there are literally over a billion people in the world whose lives are worse than hers, and yet they do not all commit suicide.

So no, I'm sorry, but "people were horrible to me and drove me to suicide" is not a valid argument. Not unless they're doing something like brutally torturing you after murdering your entire family in front of your eyes.

Yet another person who doesn't understand depression.

[Floating mountain]

Yeah I get that. my parents think its a phase meant to annoy them. sucks alot because obviously i would just love to be at risk of abuse. But my parents are christian so it makes more sense then that.

I guess the one good thing about being in the closet for over 3 years is that when I come out, I can safely tell them what a load of bullshit it is if they tell me its "just a phase". I'm pretty fucking sure phases don't last nearly that long.

In my experience if your not openly out for that time then they only start counting the time from when you come out to them. the time before that doesn't count because apparently being in the closet you didn't know. But hopefully it will go better for you then it did for me.

[Page]

I will never be able to understand people who kill themselves and blame someone else for this act.

I understand that Alcorn's life was quite bad. But I am also very certain that there are literally over a billion people in the world whose lives are worse than hers, and yet they do not all commit suicide.

So no, I'm sorry, but "people were horrible to me and drove me to suicide" is not a valid argument. Not unless they're doing something like brutally torturing you after murdering your entire family in front of your eyes.

You don't find emotional abuse to have the same validity as physical abuse.

As someone who experienced both physical and emotional abuse as a child, I can tell you the emotional abuse was often worse.

[Floating mountain]

I will never be able to understand people who kill themselves and blame someone else for this act.

I understand that Alcorn's life was quite bad. But I am also very certain that there are literally over a billion people in the world whose lives are worse than hers, and yet they do not all commit suicide.

So no, I'm sorry, but "people were horrible to me and drove me to suicide" is not a valid argument. Not unless they're doing something like brutally torturing you after murdering your entire family in front of your eyes.

Depression doesn't care that other people have it worse. It can effect anyone.

[Grenartia]

1. I will never be able to understand people who kill themselves and blame someone else for this act.

2. I understand that Alcorn's life was quite bad. But I am also very certain that there are literally over a billion people in the world whose lives are worse than hers, and yet they do not all commit suicide.

3. So no, I'm sorry, but "people were horrible to me and drove me to suicide" is not a valid argument. Not unless they're doing something like brutally torturing you after murdering your entire family in front of your eyes.

1. Her parents were treating her like shit. They were fucking abusive.

2. And?

3. They put her in fucking conversion therapy. That is fucking torture. They cut her off from most contact with the outside world. They consistently misgendered her. Among MANY other things.

[Grenartia]

I will never be able to understand people who kill themselves and blame someone else for this act.

I understand that Alcorn's life was quite bad. But I am also very certain that there are literally over a billion people in the world whose lives are worse than hers, and yet they do not all commit suicide.

So no, I'm sorry, but "people were horrible to me and drove me to suicide" is not a valid argument. Not unless they're doing something like brutally torturing you after murdering your entire family in front of your eyes.

Yet another person who doesn't understand depression.

And one who doesn't understand the consequences of queerphobia on amplifying depression. Especially when coupled with dysphoria.

[Constantinopolis]

I will never be able to understand people who kill themselves and blame someone else for this act.

I understand that Alcorn's life was quite bad. But I am also very certain that there are literally over a billion people in the world whose lives are worse than hers, and yet they do not all commit suicide.

So no, I'm sorry, but "people were horrible to me and drove me to suicide" is not a valid argument. Not unless they're doing something like brutally torturing you after murdering your entire family in front of your eyes.

You don't find emotional abuse to have the same validity as physical abuse.

As someone who experienced both physical and emotional abuse as a child, I can tell you the emotional abuse was often worse.

I know that. It's not an issue of emotional vs. physical. It's an issue of intensity. Emotional abuse can be horrific too - there is such a thing as psychological torture after all - but the thing is, having parents who refuse to recognize your gender identity (while otherwise treating you in a normal, loving way) does not qualify as horrific emotional abuse.

There are much, much worse ways that a personal can be emotionally abused.

[Page]

You don't find emotional abuse to have the same validity as physical abuse.

As someone who experienced both physical and emotional abuse as a child, I can tell you the emotional abuse was often worse.

I know that. It's not an issue of emotional vs. physical. It's an issue of intensity. Emotional abuse can be horrific too - there is such a thing as psychological torture after all - but the thing is, having parents who refuse to recognize your gender identity (while otherwise treating you in a normal, loving way) does not qualify as horrific emotional abuse.

There are much, much worse ways that a personal can be emotionally abused.

If it were the type of abuse she could just brush off then why would she kill herself?

[Grenartia]

I guess the one good thing about being in the closet for over 3 years is that when I come out, I can safely tell them what a load of bullshit it is if they tell me its "just a phase". I'm pretty fucking sure phases don't last nearly that long.

In my experience if your not openly out for that time then they only start counting the time from when you come out to them. the time before that doesn't count because apparently being in the closet you didn't know. But hopefully it will go better for you then it did for me.

Fair enough. And thanks.

[Floating mountain]

In my experience if your not openly out for that time then they only start counting the time from when you come out to them. the time before that doesn't count because apparently being in the closet you didn't know. But hopefully it will go better for you then it did for me.

Fair enough. And thanks.

Your welcome.