Suicide of Leelah Alcorn

[WestRedMaple]

I am never going to convince you that if someone says that they use a specific pronoun set exclusively that refusal to use that set is misgendering.

You never even tried. When asked to do so, you refused in favor of simply repeating yourself.


As for Leelah, I think about everything has been covered by now: parents seem like pricks, Leelah didn't have much of a support base to help, unfortunately, Leelah committed suicide, and unfortunately a bystander was forced to be involved in that. Eventually, like race, sex, sexuality, etc, this will just be one more accepted aspect of humanity. Along the way, there will continue to be those like Leelah's parents who drag their heels, though that will do nothing to prevent the inevitable changes in society.

[WestRedMaple]

They/them/their always works, thus my preference for it.

I don't mind being referred to as "they," but a trans person who is really struggling to be accepted as their preferred gender might feel like you're using "they" to avoid acknowledging their gender.

Which is their issue, not mine. If they honestly care, then they'll be paying enough attention to notice that I use the same for people regardless of gender, and would see no reason there for complaint.

Equality, it's about being equal, not being special.

[Floating mountain]

I am never going to convince you that if someone says that they use a specific pronoun set exclusively that refusal to use that set is misgendering.

You never even tried. When asked to do so, you refused in favor of simply repeating yourself.


As for Leelah, I think about everything has been covered by now: parents seem like pricks, Leelah didn't have much of a support base to help, unfortunately, Leelah committed suicide, and unfortunately a bystander was forced to be involved in that. Eventually, like race, sex, sexuality, etc, this will just be one more accepted aspect of humanity. Along the way, there will continue to be those like Leelah's parents who drag their heels, though that will do nothing to prevent the inevitable changes in society.

I explained it. and when i asked what you didn't understand you didn't answer and instead repeated yourself and asked what i didn't understand. So I was unable to explain in greater detail what was confusing you.

And yeah i agree with what you say about how the situation and how eventually being trans will not be something to be ashamed of but some people will take time.

[Grenartia]

The logical conclusion is that, since I am using a correct pronoun, that I am in no way denying anything about them. I AM using correct pronouns. You're just under the mistaken impression that pronouns are mutually exclusive.

I do know that pronouns are not mutually exclusive. However not everyone has multiple pronouns. So if you use a pronoun that they do not use then you are in fact denying them.
For example i use she/her pronouns only. Using they/them in regards to me IS MISGENDERING because it is not a correct pronoun.

WRM's pretty well known around here for being an intellectually dishonest troll who constantly threadjacks. Its best just to put him/her/them on your ignore list.

[WestRedMaple]

You never even tried. When asked to do so, you refused in favor of simply repeating yourself.


As for Leelah, I think about everything has been covered by now: parents seem like pricks, Leelah didn't have much of a support base to help, unfortunately, Leelah committed suicide, and unfortunately a bystander was forced to be involved in that. Eventually, like race, sex, sexuality, etc, this will just be one more accepted aspect of humanity. Along the way, there will continue to be those like Leelah's parents who drag their heels, though that will do nothing to prevent the inevitable changes in society.

I explained it. and when i asked what you didn't understand you didn't answer and instead repeated yourself and asked what i didn't understand. So I was unable to explain in greater detail what was confusing you.

And yeah i agree with what you say about how the situation and how eventually being trans will not be something to be ashamed of but some people will take time.

You didn't explain. You simply repeated your position, even when I specifically asked you.

Repitition is not explanation.

The prefix 'mis' means that the thing has been done poorly, wrongly, badly, etc.

How do you think something can be done poorly if it hasn't been done at all?

[Floating mountain]

I don't mind being referred to as "they," but a trans person who is really struggling to be accepted as their preferred gender might feel like you're using "they" to avoid acknowledging their gender.

Which is their issue, not mine. If they honestly care, then they'll be paying enough attention to notice that I use the same for people regardless of gender, and would see no reason there for complaint.

Equality, it's about being equal, not being special.

Okay. But if it was someone you just met then you would have to explain that to them. Because often times people will use they in regards to a trans person after hearing their preferred pronouns but continue to use gendered pronouns for other people. So that would be the logical conclusion for someone who you have just met who is trans themselfs.

[Floating mountain]

I do know that pronouns are not mutually exclusive. However not everyone has multiple pronouns. So if you use a pronoun that they do not use then you are in fact denying them.
For example i use she/her pronouns only. Using they/them in regards to me IS MISGENDERING because it is not a correct pronoun.

WRM's pretty well known around here for being an intellectually dishonest troll who constantly threadjacks. Its best just to put him/her/them on your ignore list.

Okay. I didn't know them before this but I was starting to gather that. Good to know for the future.

[Grenartia]

Can we stop with the pronoun thing? If someone refers to me as "she," I really don't care. I can understand how one could get upset being forced to conform to their anatomical gender's role if they don't identify that way, but Jeez Louis the fixation on pronouns is stupid. You can't change how people think without infringing on their rights. Infringing on other people's rights to make you feel better about yourself is not cool, even if the other person is the most annoyingly ignorant person on the face of the Earth.

You may not care if someone refers to you as "she" however pronouns tend to be important transgender people. The reason for that is that pronouns are a crucial part of someones gender identity. So using the wrong pronouns invalidates the persons gender and leads to depression, even more self image issues, suicidal thoughts. I'm not saying that you cant misgender people however i can call you out on being transphobic it goes both ways. You may find the fixation on pronouns stupid but i find the disregard of the incorrect use pronouns stupid. Its not anatomical gender its assigned sex. gender=/=anatomy or sex.

Exactly.

[WestRedMaple]

Which is their issue, not mine. If they honestly care, then they'll be paying enough attention to notice that I use the same for people regardless of gender, and would see no reason there for complaint.

Equality, it's about being equal, not being special.

Okay. But if it was someone you just met then you would have to explain that to them. Because often times people will use they in regards to a trans person after hearing their preferred pronouns but continue to use gendered pronouns for other people. So that would be the logical conclusion for someone who you have just met who is trans themselfs.

I need do no such thing. If someone would prefer to make dumb assumptions, then that is their choice. I'm under no obligation to make up for their lack of interest in using observation or asking questions.

[Floating mountain]

Okay. But if it was someone you just met then you would have to explain that to them. Because often times people will use they in regards to a trans person after hearing their preferred pronouns but continue to use gendered pronouns for other people. So that would be the logical conclusion for someone who you have just met who is trans themselfs.

I need do no such thing. If someone would prefer to make dumb assumptions, then that is their choice. I'm under no obligation to make up for their lack of interest in using observation or asking questions.

The assumption stops being dumb when it happens to the person on multiple occasions everyday. And no you don't need to do that however it would be a polite thing to do if someone asks you to only use a specific pronoun set.

[Val Halla]

I think it is disrespectful to Leelah that media has used te wrong pronoun (he) in most cases. The fact that she could not be recogonised as a woman, even after she killed herself for that reason. To be honest, I think mainstream media has as much as an issue with her gender identity as her parents did. I also think it is down right appalling that ger parents still use the wrong pronoun, even after their use of it is what drove their daughter to suicide.

[Floating mountain]

I think it is disrespectful to Leelah that media has used te wrong pronoun (he) in most cases. The fact that she could not be recogonised as a woman, even after she killed herself for that reason. To be honest, I think mainstream media has as much as an issue with her gender identity as her parents did. I also think it is down right appalling that ger parents still use the wrong pronoun, even after their use of it is what drove their daughter to suicide.

It is sad and she should be referred to as the women she was in all media. But the media has to carter to the people who watch it and some of those people are rather conservative and see her as as he. But it is still quite appalling.

[Page]

I think it is disrespectful to Leelah that media has used te wrong pronoun (he) in most cases. The fact that she could not be recogonised as a woman, even after she killed herself for that reason. To be honest, I think mainstream media has as much as an issue with her gender identity as her parents did. I also think it is down right appalling that ger parents still use the wrong pronoun, even after their use of it is what drove their daughter to suicide.

Not like reporters would have the guts to call them on misgendering her either.
(And before anyone says "but they just lost their child!", no, they just KILLED their child. Fucking abusive pieces of shit).

[Grenartia]

I think it is disrespectful to Leelah that media has used te wrong pronoun (he) in most cases. The fact that she could not be recogonised as a woman, even after she killed herself for that reason. To be honest, I think mainstream media has as much as an issue with her gender identity as her parents did. I also think it is down right appalling that ger parents still use the wrong pronoun, even after their use of it is what drove their daughter to suicide.

Indeed.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

I think it is disrespectful to Leelah that media has used te wrong pronoun (he) in most cases. The fact that she could not be recogonised as a woman, even after she killed herself for that reason. To be honest, I think mainstream media has as much as an issue with her gender identity as her parents did. I also think it is down right appalling that ger parents still use the wrong pronoun, even after their use of it is what drove their daughter to suicide.

That happens like all the damn time.

[Val Halla]

I think it is disrespectful to Leelah that media has used te wrong pronoun (he) in most cases. The fact that she could not be recogonised as a woman, even after she killed herself for that reason. To be honest, I think mainstream media has as much as an issue with her gender identity as her parents did. I also think it is down right appalling that ger parents still use the wrong pronoun, even after their use of it is what drove their daughter to suicide.

That happens like all the damn time.

But my point is it shouldn't, and society will be broken until this changes. If somebody is cruel enough to drive somebody else to suicide over something like gender, then a slice of humanity is lost. She was driven to death by this, and it needs fixing so no more fall victim to unnecessary gender discrimination, wouldn't you agree?

[Othelos]

Implying that her death could've been honorable in some other way? She wanted out from the ostracization by her parents and found it in death. While a shame that she died, I don't see the shame in how she died. Yes, she chose suicide and, yes, there is collateral damage in the form of a truck driver who deserves consolation and sympathy, but I don't see how that makes what she did any less honorable.

Committing suicide takes quite some bravery and I wish people would appreciate that. Yes, it's a terrible occurrence and one we should prevent but what it is not is cowardly. If it was cowardly, I and many others would've done it long ago. No, it takes a special kind of bravery and strength to commit one's self to a voluntary death.

It takes even more bravery to fight the fight and stand up in the face of criticism.

did u even read why she gave up

[Floating mountain]

That happens like all the damn time.

But my point is it shouldn't, and society will be broken until this changes. If somebody is cruel enough to drive somebody else to suicide over something like gender, then a slice of humanity is lost. She was driven to death by this, and it needs fixing so no more fall victim to unnecessary gender discrimination, wouldn't you agree?

I think we can all agree that this shouldn't happen.

[Val Halla]

But my point is it shouldn't, and society will be broken until this changes. If somebody is cruel enough to drive somebody else to suicide over something like gender, then a slice of humanity is lost. She was driven to death by this, and it needs fixing so no more fall victim to unnecessary gender discrimination, wouldn't you agree?

I think we can all agree that this shouldn't happen.

Like I said, the issue is that some don't.

[The Emerald Dragon]

I'm seriously confused about this.

Should I label him/her as their biological gender, the gender the parents' accept or the one he/she wanted?


I mean I wrote a post in a roleplay about it less than half an hour ago, but it's easier when you're the one making a character.

[Floating mountain]

I think we can all agree that this shouldn't happen.

Like I said, the issue is that some don't.

Yeah that is the issue. And a way that it can be combated is by trying to get media sources to correctly gender trans people.

[Floating mountain]

I'm seriously confused about this.

Should I label him/her as their biological gender, the gender the parents' accept or the one he/she wanted?


I mean I wrote a post in a roleplay about it less than half an hour ago, but it's easier when you're the one making a character.

You should label her as a she because she was a women. You should always use the pronouns that someone says that they use and the gender that they say they are because they are that gender.

[Potenco]

I'm seriously confused about this.

Should I label him/her as their biological gender, the gender the parents' accept or the one he/she wanted?


I mean I wrote a post in a roleplay about it less than half an hour ago, but it's easier when you're the one making a character.

As a rule, adress a transgender person but the gender they identify as. It honestly is a little thing that people could do that would make out lives alot easier, because alot of us get misgendered constantly

[Val Halla]

I'm seriously confused about this.

Should I label him/her as their biological gender, the gender the parents' accept or the one he/she wanted?


I mean I wrote a post in a roleplay about it less than half an hour ago, but it's easier when you're the one making a character.

You lable her as she. She was a woman, not matter what the media or her parents or whoever said. If somebody says they are a man, or a woman, or anything else, you call them by that.

[Grenartia]

I'm seriously confused about this.

Should I label him/her as their biological gender, the gender the parents' accept or the one he/she wanted?


I mean I wrote a post in a roleplay about it less than half an hour ago, but it's easier when you're the one making a character.

You should label her as a she because she was a women. You should always use the pronouns that someone says that they use and the gender that they say they are because they are that gender.

Also, there's no such thing as "biological gender". There's only biological sex (which has no bearing on gender or pronouns), and gender, which is psychological, and is what pronoun usage goes off of.