Suicide of Leelah Alcorn

[WestRedMaple]

The logical conclusion is that, since I am using a correct pronoun, that I am in no way denying anything about them. I AM using correct pronouns. You're just under the mistaken impression that pronouns are mutually exclusive.

I do know that pronouns are not mutually exclusive. However not everyone has multiple pronouns. So if you use a pronoun that they do not use then you are in fact denying them.
For example i use she/her pronouns only. Using they/them in regards to me IS MISGENDERING because it is not a correct pronoun.

Wow, you sure didn't think that through.

So what pronoun would you use for me?

Using they/them is, in fact, NOT misgendering, as you cannot misgender someone if you haven't gendered them to begin with.

[Floating mountain]

I do know that pronouns are not mutually exclusive. However not everyone has multiple pronouns. So if you use a pronoun that they do not use then you are in fact denying them.
For example i use she/her pronouns only. Using they/them in regards to me IS MISGENDERING because it is not a correct pronoun.

Wow, you sure didn't think that through.

So what pronoun would you use for me?

Using they/them is, in fact, NOT misgendering, as you cannot misgender someone if you haven't gendered them to begin with.

I think we are operating under different conditions. If you don't know their gender then use they/them and is that what you are saying? What I am arguing is if someone has told you their gender and pronouns and you then use a different pronoun then you are misgendering them and thats when they/them is no longer acceptable to be used.

[WestRedMaple]

Wow, you sure didn't think that through.

So what pronoun would you use for me?

Using they/them is, in fact, NOT misgendering, as you cannot misgender someone if you haven't gendered them to begin with.

I think we are operating under different conditions. If you don't know their gender then use they/them and is that what you are saying? What I am arguing is if someone has told you their gender and pronouns and you then use a different pronoun then you are misgendering them and thats when they/them is no longer acceptable to be used.

They/them is perfectly acceptable. There is nothing wrong with someone not learning a bunch of different pronouns to use for the thousands of people they come in contact with. If you have some sort of relationship with the person, then just use their name.

It is impossible for they to be misgendering, given the fact that it isn't gendering at all.

You also avoided the question. It was a pretty simple one: what pronoun would you use for me?

[Floating mountain]

I think we are operating under different conditions. If you don't know their gender then use they/them and is that what you are saying? What I am arguing is if someone has told you their gender and pronouns and you then use a different pronoun then you are misgendering them and thats when they/them is no longer acceptable to be used.

They/them is perfectly acceptable. There is nothing wrong with someone not learning a bunch of different pronouns to use for the thousands of people they come in contact with. If you have some sort of relationship with the person, then just use their name.

It is impossible for they to be misgendering, given the fact that it isn't gendering at all.

You also avoided the question. It was a pretty simple one: what pronoun would you use for me?

I would use they/them until you told me otherwise at witch point I would immediately swap to whatever pronouns you preferred. And using
they/them when someone says that they have a singular pronoun that they use then not using that pronoun is denying the persons gender and is misgendering. Sorry but refusal to use someones preferred pronoun is in fact misgendering and transphobic regardless of the reasoning. Let me ask you two questions.
1. When you say you would use their name do you mean their preferred name or what is says on legal documents?
2. Sense I have already stated my preferred pronouns and they are in my sig what pronouns would you use for me?

[Karlom-Teravanyia]

Can we stop with the pronoun thing? If someone refers to me as "she," I really don't care. I can understand how one could get upset being forced to conform to their anatomical gender's role if they don't identify that way, but Jeez Louis the fixation on pronouns is stupid. You can't force people change how they think without infringing on their rights. Infringing on other people's rights to make you feel better about yourself is not cool, even if the other person is the most annoyingly ignorant person on the face of the Earth.

[WestRedMaple]

They/them is perfectly acceptable. There is nothing wrong with someone not learning a bunch of different pronouns to use for the thousands of people they come in contact with. If you have some sort of relationship with the person, then just use their name.

It is impossible for they to be misgendering, given the fact that it isn't gendering at all.

You also avoided the question. It was a pretty simple one: what pronoun would you use for me?

I would use they/them until you told me otherwise at witch point I would immediately swap to whatever pronouns you preferred. And using
they/them when someone says that they have a singular pronoun that they use then not using that pronoun is denying the persons gender and is misgendering. Sorry but refusal to use someones preferred pronoun is in fact misgendering and transphobic regardless of the reasoning. Let me ask you two questions.
1. When you say you would use their name do you mean their preferred name or what is says on legal documents?
2. Sense I have already stated my preferred pronouns and they are in my sig what pronouns would you use for me?

Your statement is not true. Not gendering someone quite literally is impossible to be misgendering them. It is just as false to call the truth "transphobic" unless you are making that statement as a transphobic person yourself.

1. I use the name they give me. I've only seen legal documents for a very small minority of people that I know reasonably well.
2. If I'm talking to someone here, I'd use Floating mountain. If I'm talking to someone beyond NS, then I'd just use they.

[Threlizdun]

Can we stop with the pronoun thing? If someone refers to me as "she," I really don't care. I can understand how one could get upset being forced to conform to their anatomical gender's role if they don't identify that way, but Jeez Louis the fixation on pronouns is stupid. You can't force people change how they think without infringing on their rights. Infringing on other people's rights to make you feel better about yourself is not cool, even if the other person is the most annoyingly ignorant person on the face of the Earth.

Asking people to use the correct pronouns when addressing you isn't a matter of forcing beliefs onto them, but of common decency. It is no more extreme than expecting people not to use racial slurs when addressing you. By refusing to use the correct pronouns, you are saying that alleviating the suffering they endure isn't worth a single word to you. No, anyone who intentionally misgenders others is an asshole and should be called out for such with just as much intensity as those that use racial slurs.

[Floating mountain]

Can we stop with the pronoun thing? If someone refers to me as "she," I really don't care. I can understand how one could get upset being forced to conform to their anatomical gender's role if they don't identify that way, but Jeez Louis the fixation on pronouns is stupid. You can't change how people think without infringing on their rights. Infringing on other people's rights to make you feel better about yourself is not cool, even if the other person is the most annoyingly ignorant person on the face of the Earth.

You may not care if someone refers to you as "she" however pronouns tend to be important transgender people. The reason for that is that pronouns are a crucial part of someones gender identity. So using the wrong pronouns invalidates the persons gender and leads to depression, even more self image issues, suicidal thoughts. I'm not saying that you cant misgender people however i can call you out on being transphobic it goes both ways. You may find the fixation on pronouns stupid but i find the disregard of the incorrect use pronouns stupid. Its not anatomical gender its assigned sex. gender=/=anatomy or sex.

[Lost heros]

Can we stop with the pronoun thing? If someone refers to me as "she," I really don't care. I can understand how one could get upset being forced to conform to their anatomical gender's role if they don't identify that way, but Jeez Louis the fixation on pronouns is stupid. You can't force people change how they think without infringing on their rights. Infringing on other people's rights to make you feel better about yourself is not cool, even if the other person is the most annoyingly ignorant person on the face of the Earth.

Pronouns are representations of one's gender, and thus their identity. As such it's an incredibly important topic of conversation when referring to transgenders.

Also, arguing with someone to convince them to use the pronoun to refer to the chosen gender is not an infrigment on their rights.

[Floating mountain]

I would use they/them until you told me otherwise at witch point I would immediately swap to whatever pronouns you preferred. And using
they/them when someone says that they have a singular pronoun that they use then not using that pronoun is denying the persons gender and is misgendering. Sorry but refusal to use someones preferred pronoun is in fact misgendering and transphobic regardless of the reasoning. Let me ask you two questions.
1. When you say you would use their name do you mean their preferred name or what is says on legal documents?
2. Sense I have already stated my preferred pronouns and they are in my sig what pronouns would you use for me?

Your statement is not true. Not gendering someone quite literally is impossible to be misgendering them. It is just as false to call the truth "transphobic" unless you are making that statement as a transphobic person yourself.

1. I use the name they give me. I've only seen legal documents for a very small minority of people that I know reasonably well.
2. If I'm talking to someone here, I'd use Floating mountain. If I'm talking to someone beyond NS, then I'd just use they.

In what way is asking you to use the pronouns that someone says that they want to be referred to by anyway transphobic? All I'm asking you to use the correct pronouns for people.

[Karlom-Teravanyia]

Can we stop with the pronoun thing? If someone refers to me as "she," I really don't care. I can understand how one could get upset being forced to conform to their anatomical gender's role if they don't identify that way, but Jeez Louis the fixation on pronouns is stupid. You can't change how people think without infringing on their rights. Infringing on other people's rights to make you feel better about yourself is not cool, even if the other person is the most annoyingly ignorant person on the face of the Earth.

You may not care if someone refers to you as "she" however pronouns tend to be important transgender people. The reason for that is that pronouns are a crucial part of someones gender identity. So using the wrong pronouns invalidates the persons gender and leads to depression, even more self image issues, suicidal thoughts. I'm not saying that you cant misgender people however i can call you out on being transphobic it goes both ways. You may find the fixation on pronouns stupid but i find the disregard of the incorrect use pronouns stupid. Its not anatomical gender its assigned sex. gender=/=anatomy or sex.

Someone calling me a "she" misgenders me. Am I offended? No. They're either stupid or being an immature prick attempting to get under my skin. Would I purposefully misgender a transgendered person? No. That would be a dickish thing to do. But do I think we need to be going on the war path to make sure everyone uses the right pronoun? No.

[WestRedMaple]

Your statement is not true. Not gendering someone quite literally is impossible to be misgendering them. It is just as false to call the truth "transphobic" unless you are making that statement as a transphobic person yourself.

1. I use the name they give me. I've only seen legal documents for a very small minority of people that I know reasonably well.
2. If I'm talking to someone here, I'd use Floating mountain. If I'm talking to someone beyond NS, then I'd just use they.

In what way is asking you to use the pronouns that someone says that they want to be referred to by anyway transphobic? All I'm asking you to use the correct pronouns for people.

Your question has no basis in reality. I do not use incorrect pronouns for anyone, and I've at no point in time ever claimed that asking for particular pronouns is in any way transphobic.

How do you think something can be misgendered if they aren't gendered in the first place?

[Planita]

You may not care if someone refers to you as "she" however pronouns tend to be important transgender people. The reason for that is that pronouns are a crucial part of someones gender identity. So using the wrong pronouns invalidates the persons gender and leads to depression, even more self image issues, suicidal thoughts. I'm not saying that you cant misgender people however i can call you out on being transphobic it goes both ways. You may find the fixation on pronouns stupid but i find the disregard of the incorrect use pronouns stupid. Its not anatomical gender its assigned sex. gender=/=anatomy or sex.

Someone calling me a "she" misgenders me. Am I offended? No. They're either stupid or being an immature prick attempting to get under my skin. Would I purposefully misgender a transgendered person? No. That would be a dickish thing to do. But do I think we need to be going on the war path to make sure everyone uses the right pronoun? No.

Its their right to use whatever pronoun they like. They are jerks though

[Floating mountain]

In what way is asking you to use the pronouns that someone says that they want to be referred to by anyway transphobic? All I'm asking you to use the correct pronouns for people.

Your question has no basis in reality. I do not use incorrect pronouns for anyone, and I've at no point in time ever claimed that asking for particular pronouns is in any way transphobic.

How do you think something can be misgendered if they aren't gendered in the first place?

I also never said that asking for someones preferred pronouns is transphobic in fact i think that that should be normalized so im not sure where you are getting that from.
Not using someones preferred pronouns=misgendering. it is as simple as that.

[Floating mountain]

You may not care if someone refers to you as "she" however pronouns tend to be important transgender people. The reason for that is that pronouns are a crucial part of someones gender identity. So using the wrong pronouns invalidates the persons gender and leads to depression, even more self image issues, suicidal thoughts. I'm not saying that you cant misgender people however i can call you out on being transphobic it goes both ways. You may find the fixation on pronouns stupid but i find the disregard of the incorrect use pronouns stupid. Its not anatomical gender its assigned sex. gender=/=anatomy or sex.

Someone calling me a "she" misgenders me. Am I offended? No. They're either stupid or being an immature prick attempting to get under my skin. Would I purposefully misgender a transgendered person? No. That would be a dickish thing to do. But do I think we need to be going on the war path to make sure everyone uses the right pronoun? No.

They can use the incorrect pronouns however that makes them dicks. And it is equally allowed to ask for them to use the correct pronouns.

[WestRedMaple]

I also never said that asking for someones preferred pronouns is transphobic in fact i think that that should be normalized so im not sure where you are getting that from.

That's not related to anything I've posted.

Not using someones preferred pronouns=misgendering. it is as simple as that.

You are, in fact, wrong. It is impossible to misgender without gendering. It is as simple as that.

[Floating mountain]

I also never said that asking for someones preferred pronouns is transphobic in fact i think that that should be normalized so im not sure where you are getting that from.

That's not related to anything I've posted.

Not using someones preferred pronouns=misgendering. it is as simple as that.

You are, in fact, wrong. It is impossible to misgender without gendering. It is as simple as that.

It was in response to this

Your question has no basis in reality. I do not use incorrect pronouns for anyone, and I've at no point in time ever claimed that asking for particular pronouns is in any way transphobic.

Aside from the fact that all im asking is for you to use the correct pronouns. And if you are using a pronoun that someone doesnt use then you are denying their gender. Not gendering someone when they have already explicitly told you their gender means that you are denying their gender. What about that do you not understand?

[WestRedMaple]

That's not related to anything I've posted.




You are, in fact, wrong. It is impossible to misgender without gendering. It is as simple as that.

It was in response to this

Your question has no basis in reality. I do not use incorrect pronouns for anyone, and I've at no point in time ever claimed that asking for particular pronouns is in any way transphobic.

Aside from the fact that all im asking is for you to use the correct pronouns. And if you are using a pronoun that someone doesnt use then you are denying their gender. Not gendering someone when they have already explicitly told you their gender means that you are denying their gender. What about that do you not understand?

Your statement has no basis in reality.

That I don't much use gendered pronouns doesn't deny anyone their gender. What about that is so confusing for you?

[Floating mountain]

It was in response to this


Aside from the fact that all im asking is for you to use the correct pronouns. And if you are using a pronoun that someone doesnt use then you are denying their gender. Not gendering someone when they have already explicitly told you their gender means that you are denying their gender. What about that do you not understand?

Your statement has no basis in reality.

That I don't much use gendered pronouns doesn't deny anyone their gender. What about that is so confusing for you?

I am never going to convince you that if someone says that they use a specific pronoun set exclusively that refusal to use that set is misgendering. and you are not going to convince me that using a neutral term when someone says they don't respond to it isn't misgendering. so how about stop going in circles and move onto a different topic about Leelah.

[Nazi Flower Power]

1. Using they/them/their only works till someone expresses a desire to be referred to by a different pronoun at witch point that becomes the correct pronoun to use.
2. The problem is the issue of constant and deliberate misgendering is what drives trans people to suicide.

They/them/their always works, thus my preference for it.

I don't mind being referred to as "they," but a trans person who is really struggling to be accepted as their preferred gender might feel like you're using "they" to avoid acknowledging their gender.

[Floating mountain]

They/them/their always works, thus my preference for it.

I don't mind being referred to as "they," but a trans person who is really struggling to be accepted as their preferred gender might feel like you're using "they" to avoid acknowledging their gender.

This^

[Nazi Flower Power]

The reason why they/them doesn't always work is that as soon as someone expresses a desire to be referred to by a specific pronoun set exclusively using they/them means that you are no longer using the pronouns that they are most comfortable with.

They still work just fine, as they are still entirely, accurately applicable. Deciding to take offense because someone uses generic pronouns instead of memorizing different pronouns for everyone is rude.

If it is someone who plays any sort of major role in one's life, then a name is more appropriate.

Even if you know someone's name, there are still times when it's natural to use pronouns. For example: "Mom said she was going grocery shopping." Obviously, you know your mom's name, but the sentence still sounds weird if you reword it to avoid using "she."

[Grenartia]

Ignoring the fact I never said the underlined, I've lived in small town America most of my life. My actual characterization is not that inaccurate from what I've seen firsthand. Also, believe it or not, but yes, transgender people get lynched all the time, in big cities, small towns, and the suburbs.



1. That's literally the definitions of Poe's Law.

2. Not really. I laugh at inane bullshit people say and actually believe, all the time.

3. I've heard more outrageous from others on here, and they actually believed it. So, I can't really be blamed for thinking you actually meant it.

1. In my experience, small town folk are incredibly understanding and compassionate individuals, and 2. I've lived and stayed in towns across the Southeastern States and met many interesting and wonderful people. Many would give you the shirt of their back. 3. Now, that being said, most people don't understand transgenderism and consider transgender people "weird" or "odd" but true, militant, anti-transgender sentiments I have found are hard to come by. I don't think that thinking transgender people are weird constitutes "transphobia."

1. As long as you're not openly and unrepentantly LGBT, yes, for the most part.

2. As have I.

3. Define "militant" in this context.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Can we stop with the pronoun thing? If someone refers to me as "she," I really don't care. I can understand how one could get upset being forced to conform to their anatomical gender's role if they don't identify that way, but Jeez Louis the fixation on pronouns is stupid. You can't force people change how they think without infringing on their rights. Infringing on other people's rights to make you feel better about yourself is not cool, even if the other person is the most annoyingly ignorant person on the face of the Earth.

Using correct pronouns doesn't require people to change how they think. They don't have to be 100% comfortable with transsexualism, and they don't have to stop making any mental association between sex and gender. They just have to use the correct pronoun.

[Grenartia]

They/them/their always works, thus my preference for it.

The reason why they/them doesn't always work is that as soon as someone expresses a desire to be referred to by a specific pronoun set exclusively using they/them means that you are no longer using the pronouns that they are most comfortable with.

Exactly.