Suicide of Leelah Alcorn

[Greater Mackonia]

Now I am genuinely simply curious here and not trying to in any way insult you or your orientation but how exactly does it rationally stack that she was, as you all seem to insist, a she and not a he, I am merely interested as to how merely saying "No but I'm am most definitely a girl despite having a penis and XY gametes" actually makes it such. Please don't hurt me.

Well, simply put, sex does not equal gender. Sex simply refers to male or female sex organs, and even this is not binary as there are many people who are healthy and are not XX or XY. Referring to people who have said sex organs as he or she is incorrect, because these sex organs don't have a gender. (personally, I think gendered pronouns should find their exit in the English language to due the very, very common mixing of gender and sex but that's just me) Gender is self-expression and is socially constructed, because of the way that people with said sex organs had been forced into roles based strictly on their sex organs despite doing said activities are not physically restricted only to members of that sex. For example, caretaking, preparing food, wearing makeup, wearing high-heels, dresses, long hair, a certain standard of cleanliness, etc. are all traditionally (to some extent) expected of women, despite the fact that both men and women can invert this trope.

So, basically, pronouns refer to gender, not to sex.

Then surely Gender does not exist? It is merely a label assigned to oneself or others and biological sex should be the only matter of concern, I think gender roles are meaningless but surely a man who wishes to be a woman, dresses in female attire and engages in other activities or fashions which are conventionally thought of as female, is still a man nonetheless? By that I mean what is the point of calling him anything else if gender roles are abstract social constructs? Let him engage in those activities but how would you argue you should then biologically mislabel him.

I apologise if I am coming across as offensive.

[Kincoboh]

Well, simply put, sex does not equal gender. Sex simply refers to male or female sex organs, and even this is not binary as there are many people who are healthy and are not XX or XY. Referring to people who have said sex organs as he or she is incorrect, because these sex organs don't have a gender. (personally, I think gendered pronouns should find their exit in the English language to due the very, very common mixing of gender and sex but that's just me) Gender is self-expression and is socially constructed, because of the way that people with said sex organs had been forced into roles based strictly on their sex organs despite doing said activities are not physically restricted only to members of that sex. For example, caretaking, preparing food, wearing makeup, wearing high-heels, dresses, long hair, a certain standard of cleanliness, etc. are all traditionally (to some extent) expected of women, despite the fact that both men and women can invert this trope.

So, basically, pronouns refer to gender, not to sex.

Then surely Gender does not exist? It is merely a label assigned to oneself or others and biological sex should be the only matter of concern, I think gender roles are meaningless but surely a man who wishes to be a woman, dresses in female attire and engages in other activities or fashions which are conventionally thought of as female, is still a man nonetheless? By that I mean what is the point of calling him anything else if gender roles are abstract social constructs? Let him engage in those activities but how would you argue you should then biologically mislabel him.

I apologise if I am coming across as offensive.

No, you do make a good point. Don't forget, though, that pronouns are based upon gender, not sex. I think gender is arbitrary, but, many things in society that we value as important are also arbitrary or have social meaning assigned to them. Our entire civilization is built upon seemingly arbitrary and meaningless symbols and constructs that we assign value to. The only thing that I and other transactivists are advocating is that we allow people to have the power to make their own social identity without it being forced upon them from the rest of society.

EDIT: Further, there is no binary of sex, either. There are many, many people who don't conform to either male or female biologically. Furthermore, I don't understand why you would place undue weight on "natural" sex, when most of our civilization is built on culture and social interaction. Why does sex override gender? Personally, I believe we should do away with the whole notion of sex and gender altogether.

[Edgy Opinions]

What is a male and what is a female?

How are you so sure she had XY chromosomes? It is entirely possible to have a disagreement in sexual corporeality re: X-Y system chromosomes, gonads, genital shape and configuration, endocrine gearing and function, neurological wiring, and obviously gender identity.

Apart from intersex folks I have not heard of any cases of that, though I am not casting doubt on their existence. If such a disparity did exist and the individual felt uncomfortable about their born gender then yes that is a perfectly reasonable reason to call yourself another gender.

Intersex is just the extreme of a spectrum of ambiguity of sexual corporeality we are all immersed in.

You see, having a testicular or ovarian corporeality is the result of a very complicated dance between genotype and intra-uterine environment. Womb hormones alone cause you to have such characteristics, and you might be ovarian (or closer to it in spectrum) in spite of functional Y chromosome, or testicular (or closer to it in spectrum) in spite of not having one.

That is also to say every human is unique, and that we all are ambiguous to some degree. That's also because there are evolutionary benefits from said ambiguity, such as the reason why bisexuality and homosexuality exists. (Bingo: they are also created by said womb hormone bath related to your sexual corporeality, specifically in the time frame of the neurological wiring configuration.)

So we have an arbitrary system where we rate people as male, female or blurry non-classification (there are numberless different kinds of intersexuality, that are only meaningfully associated when we think of the social expectations regarding "sex") when actually male and female are arbitrary expectations that don't exist in nature, for we are all some sort of "blurred", and the line dividing intersex and dyadic is one of where we want to establish it according to our own constructed truth.

We reach the point where the realization of sex and gender as social constructs is the evident answer to what is a woman, a man, to be both or to be neither. So gender identity is the only relevant authority. Let's please remember that saying men and women have pre-defined fates and sets of capabilities solely regulated by that, by their sex organs, is heavy biological determinism. Why people engage in it, is because we are socially immersed in a world where gender is very important, as it defines power boundaries and even humanity (see: cisgender supremacists).

Regulate to your Psyche?...Are you trying to say it is a matter of private experience and decision, well I would have no problem with that, but how would you answer to a person claiming that insisting one is a female when one has male biological characteristics is no less delusional then schizophrenia?

Yes, it is.

She isn't reported to be schizophrenic, and until told otherwise, our duty as people who aren't psy science professionals is to not dispute an important part of people's perceptions of themselves and the world around them based on first impressions that might be warped.

We can't pathologize gender dissidence. Calling something mentally deviant was a common and powerful tool historically to exert power, silence and dominate. (See the history of the term hysteric.)

[Edgy Opinions]

Her sex was male, but her gender was female. And we generally refer to people by the pronouns and titles correspondent with their gender, since they actually coincide with their identity rather than the parts they were unwillingly given at birth.

It's a little something called common courtesy. I suggest you get some.

There are no gendered parts, actually, so it's just as unwillingly as our toes or ears.

A penis doesn't make you a man, it's people who determine a man to be made out of that.

[Dokisu]

There are lots of reasons why suicides are news worthy. Publicity can be used to honor whoever killed themselves. People could show an interest in what happened out of sympathy or because they can relate. In Leelah's case, this raises the question of how important parents' support is for transgender individuals.

Being insensitive doesn't make you cool.

And how often are those actually successful in their goals, compared to those forgotten thanks to being an unremarkable member of the countless millions?

While it is newsworthy, I doubt any large margin of the people in this thread will even remember her name by the next week, and I doubt anyone on this site will even remember she ever even existed several months ago. In the hyper-connected state of our modern world, the death of one human being is unremarkable and forgettable unless they either were a famous figure of any single culture, or the Media simply decides to focus on their death and burns their name into the skull of hundreds to thousands, sometimes even millions over the course of several months.

I can't deny that her suicide will be forgotten by many. I never thought it was dramatically impact the transgender rights movement or touch the heart of everyone who hears about this. But, as we both seem it agree, it is newsworthy and I at least think a few folks will remember her.

[WestRedMaple]

The penta-post is real.

Whether he liked it or not, he was a male. There are some things people need to just live with.

No, she wasn't.

I've seen a number of articles, and they all seemed to agree that she was male.


Also, I'm not sure her sex really has that much to do with the subject. It seems to be more of a conflict between a child of one gender and parents who wanted, by seemingly any available means, to make sure that their child was a different gender.

[Turmenista]

IMO, I don't really care about this situation.

[Eastern Equestria]

Her sex was male, but her gender was female. And we generally refer to people by the pronouns and titles correspondent with their gender, since they actually coincide with their identity rather than the parts they were unwillingly given at birth.

It's a little something called common courtesy. I suggest you get some.

There are no gendered parts, actually, so it's just as unwillingly as our toes or ears.

That's not how sex determination works.

A penis doesn't make you a man,

Having a penis makes your sex male, though. Unless of course you're a hermaphrodite or some other exception to the common duality of male and female sex (which should go without saying).

it's people who determine a man to be made out of that.

Obviously. People assign meanings to things via words. That's language in a nutshell. The categorization of one's biological sex isn't interchangeable, and obviously it doesn't always align with one's gender.

[The land of the Mushroom Kingdom]

Suicide of Leelah Josh Leelah Alcorn

Fixed that for you

Your move.

[Edgy Opinions]

At the threat of going back to what banned me earlier, but...

That's not how sex determination works.

That's dyadic cis bullshit we can perfectly call illegitimate.

Having a penis makes your sex male, though. Unless of course you're a hermaphrodite or some other exception to the common duality of male and female sex (which should go without saying).

Same of the above. Also kindly stop using the h-slur. Intersexuality is an arbitrary construct, all people are unique sexual corporeality-wise, and ambiguous too, what we know as intersex are just stronger forms of it.

Obviously. People assign meanings to things via words. That's language in a nutshell. The categorization of one's biological sex isn't interchangeable, and obviously it doesn't always align with one's gender.

Biological sex is a constructed notion, and using gendered language to describe it is obviously indirectly calling transgenderness and intersex people deviant.

[MERIZoC]

The penta-post is real.


No, she wasn't.

I've seen a number of articles, and they all seemed to agree that she was male.


Also, I'm not sure her sex really has that much to do with the subject. It seems to be more of a conflict between a child of one gender and parents who wanted, by seemingly any available means, to make sure that their child was a different gender.

I don't really care what your articles said. Perhaps she was biologically male; but that's not what matters.

[Evil Twin of Val Halla]

I've seen a number of articles, and they all seemed to agree that she was male.


Also, I'm not sure her sex really has that much to do with the subject. It seems to be more of a conflict between a child of one gender and parents who wanted, by seemingly any available means, to make sure that their child was a different gender.

I don't really care what your articles said. Perhaps she was biologically male; but that's not what matters.

The articles should have recognized her as she wanted to be recognized. I suspect the use of "he" may have been at the request of her parents, which shows that they have little respect for her identity.

[Planita]

She didn't have her sex change operation yet but she considered herself a girl and nothing else.

[WestRedMaple]

I've seen a number of articles, and they all seemed to agree that she was male.


Also, I'm not sure her sex really has that much to do with the subject. It seems to be more of a conflict between a child of one gender and parents who wanted, by seemingly any available means, to make sure that their child was a different gender.

I don't really care what your articles said. Perhaps she was biologically male; but that's not what matters.

You might not care about reality, but your feelings about it are irrelevant.

Furthermore, if you'd actually read the rest of my post, I just stated that I don't think sex is very important to the case. It appears to all boil down to Leelah not conforming to the gender her parents wanted.

Now, I haven't actually seen much about her parents, but I do know enough to know they are much different in their behavior as parents.

I want my children to be healthy, happy, and decent people. Their genders are irrelevant to how I feel about them as a parent.

[Geanna]

And how often are those actually successful in their goals, compared to those forgotten thanks to being an unremarkable member of the countless millions?

While it is newsworthy, I doubt any large margin of the people in this thread will even remember her name by the next week, and I doubt anyone on this site will even remember she ever even existed several months ago. In the hyper-connected state of our modern world, the death of one human being is unremarkable and forgettable unless they either were a famous figure of any single culture, or the Media simply decides to focus on their death and burns their name into the skull of hundreds to thousands, sometimes even millions over the course of several months.

I can't deny that her suicide will be forgotten by many. I never thought it was dramatically impact the transgender rights movement or touch the heart of everyone who hears about this. But, as we both seem it agree, it is newsworthy and I at least think a few folks will remember her.

A petition on change has already garnered over 200,000 signatures to ban ''Transgender Conversion Therapy'' - I can say, that perhaps for the first time, this won't slip out of the light so easily. There's always a breaking point somewhere, where movements get that one key, enough is enough. - as it were. In this case, I think it has struck a chord finally.

[Eastern Equestria]

At the threat of going back to what banned me earlier, but...

That's not how sex determination works.

That's dyadic cis bullshit we can perfectly call illegitimate.

No, what I think we can do is safely call out your pseudo-scientific interpretation of sex determination as illegitimate bullshit.

Having a penis makes your sex male, though. Unless of course you're a hermaphrodite or some other exception to the common duality of male and female sex (which should go without saying).

Same of the above. Also kindly stop using the h-slur. Intersexuality is an arbitrary construct, all people are unique sexual corporeality-wise, and ambiguous too, what we know as intersex are just stronger forms of it.

Semantics.

And people with variable sex characteristics are relatively rare variations from standard male/female sexual identification, not stronger forms of a perceived sex-ambiguity inherent in all human beings.

Obviously. People assign meanings to things via words. That's language in a nutshell. The categorization of one's biological sex isn't interchangeable, and obviously it doesn't always align with one's gender.

Biological sex is a constructed notion, and using gendered language to describe it is obviously indirectly calling transgenderness and intersex people deviant.

Biological sex is a natural phenomenon, not a social construct. And gendered language with regards to it is meaningless when discussing actual gender, since gender and sex are independent of one another

If by "deviant" you mean departing from what's standard, whilst leaving out the negatively-connotated baggage that goes along with the word, then statistically that'd be an apt description.

[Dokisu]

I can't deny that her suicide will be forgotten by many. I never thought it was dramatically impact the transgender rights movement or touch the heart of everyone who hears about this. But, as we both seem it agree, it is newsworthy and I at least think a few folks will remember her.

A petition on change has already garnered over 200,000 signatures to ban ''Transgender Conversion Therapy'' - I can say, that perhaps for the first time, this won't slip out of the light so easily. There's always a breaking point somewhere, where movements get that one key, enough is enough. - as it were. In this case, I think it has struck a chord finally.

Then I am pleasantly surprised. It's sad that such a tragedy had to happen to spark this, but at least this could help to prevent some trans kids from committing suicide.

[Geanna]

A petition on change has already garnered over 200,000 signatures to ban ''Transgender Conversion Therapy'' - I can say, that perhaps for the first time, this won't slip out of the light so easily. There's always a breaking point somewhere, where movements get that one key, enough is enough. - as it were. In this case, I think it has struck a chord finally.

Then I am pleasantly surprised. It's sad that such a tragedy had to happen to spark this, but at least this could help to prevent some trans kids from committing suicide.

It is upsetting that the spark that was needed was this; and I really dislike martyrs, but I must make an exception, I think she has accomplished one thing, and in that way she can be at peace. The LGBT community seems to be boiling, there are candlelight vigils being hosted across the country, and now globally - [Organised through facebook, and other media sites - there's one in London for example]; As upsetting as it is that she had to do this, she's forced an issue not many wanted to talk about, and now many are staring it in the face.

I don't condone what her parents had done, I do hold them partially accountable - and I may be angry or upset, but I also know that it'd be a pointless endeavour to harass them. My anger won't bring her back, but it can be used to help and Fix society with what little power I hold. Her suicide was one too many.

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-t ... on-therapy

http://abcnews.go.com/US/leelah-alcorn- ... d=27912326

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fun ... ts-n278541

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.co ... r_s_claims

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-t ... n-suicide/

http://jezebel.com/mom-on-suicide-of-tr ... 1676986147

http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/20 ... story.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53749.html

http://www.towleroad.com/2014/12/candle ... jan-3.html

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/20 ... /21097257/

https://www.facebook.com/events/933736743311303/

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news ... iday-night

http://www.toledofreepress.com/2014/12/ ... der-youth/

http://www.equalityohio.org/list-of-vig ... ah-alcorn/

http://www.thegayuk.com/magazine/457433 ... re/9214205

[MERIZoC]

Then I am pleasantly surprised. It's sad that such a tragedy had to happen to spark this, but at least this could help to prevent some trans kids from committing suicide.

It is upsetting that the spark that was needed was this; and I really dislike martyrs, but I must make an exception, I think she has accomplished one thing, and in that way she can be at peace. The LGBT community seems to be boiling, there are candlelight vigils being hosted across the country, and now globally - [Organised through facebook, and other media sites - there's one in London for example]; As upsetting as it is that she had to do this, she's forced an issue not many wanted to talk about, and now many are staring it in the face.

I don't condone what her parents had done, I do hold them partially accountable - and I may be angry or upset, but I also know that it'd be a pointless endeavour to harass them. My anger won't bring her back, but it can be used to help and Fix society with what little power I hold. Her suicide was one too many.

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-enact-leelah-s-law-to-ban-transgender-conversion-therapy

http://abcnews.go.com/US/leelah-alcorn- ... d=27912326

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fun ... ts-n278541

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.co ... r_s_claims

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-t ... n-suicide/

http://jezebel.com/mom-on-suicide-of-tr ... 1676986147

http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/20 ... story.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53749.html

http://www.towleroad.com/2014/12/candle ... jan-3.html

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/20 ... /21097257/

https://www.facebook.com/events/933736743311303/

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news ... iday-night

http://www.toledofreepress.com/2014/12/ ... der-youth/

http://www.equalityohio.org/list-of-vig ... ah-alcorn/

http://www.thegayuk.com/magazine/457433 ... re/9214205

Seriously? It's that big? Wow. This kind of thing happens all the time, so while very sad, I wouldn't have though it'd receive that much attention.

[Geilinor]

Seriously? It's that big? Wow. This kind of thing happens all the time, so while very sad, I wouldn't have though it'd receive that much attention.

Society has gone a long way in the past several years.

[Eagalya]

Then I am pleasantly surprised. It's sad that such a tragedy had to happen to spark this, but at least this could help to prevent some trans kids from committing suicide.

It is upsetting that the spark that was needed was this; and I really dislike martyrs, but I must make an exception, I think she has accomplished one thing, and in that way she can be at peace. The LGBT community seems to be boiling, there are candlelight vigils being hosted across the country, and now globally - [Organised through facebook, and other media sites - there's one in London for example]; As upsetting as it is that she had to do this, she's forced an issue not many wanted to talk about, and now many are staring it in the face.

I don't condone what her parents had done, I do hold them partially accountable - and I may be angry or upset, but I also know that it'd be a pointless endeavour to harass them. My anger won't bring her back, but it can be used to help and Fix society with what little power I hold. Her suicide was one too many.

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-enact-leelah-s-law-to-ban-transgender-conversion-therapy

http://abcnews.go.com/US/leelah-alcorn- ... d=27912326

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fun ... ts-n278541

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.co ... r_s_claims

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-t ... n-suicide/

http://jezebel.com/mom-on-suicide-of-tr ... 1676986147

http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/20 ... story.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53749.html

http://www.towleroad.com/2014/12/candle ... jan-3.html

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/20 ... /21097257/

https://www.facebook.com/events/933736743311303/

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news ... iday-night

http://www.toledofreepress.com/2014/12/ ... der-youth/

http://www.equalityohio.org/list-of-vig ... ah-alcorn/

http://www.thegayuk.com/magazine/457433 ... re/9214205

Good.

Problem with her parents is that they are still acting in the same manner that caused this tragedy. There's even an online petition out there asking them to put her correct name on her tombstone, because it's quite possible that they won't!

[Eastern Equestria]

It is upsetting that the spark that was needed was this; and I really dislike martyrs, but I must make an exception, I think she has accomplished one thing, and in that way she can be at peace. The LGBT community seems to be boiling, there are candlelight vigils being hosted across the country, and now globally - [Organised through facebook, and other media sites - there's one in London for example]; As upsetting as it is that she had to do this, she's forced an issue not many wanted to talk about, and now many are staring it in the face.

I don't condone what her parents had done, I do hold them partially accountable - and I may be angry or upset, but I also know that it'd be a pointless endeavour to harass them. My anger won't bring her back, but it can be used to help and Fix society with what little power I hold. Her suicide was one too many.

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-enact-leelah-s-law-to-ban-transgender-conversion-therapy

http://abcnews.go.com/US/leelah-alcorn- ... d=27912326

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fun ... ts-n278541

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.co ... r_s_claims

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-t ... n-suicide/

http://jezebel.com/mom-on-suicide-of-tr ... 1676986147

http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/20 ... story.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53749.html

http://www.towleroad.com/2014/12/candle ... jan-3.html

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/20 ... /21097257/

https://www.facebook.com/events/933736743311303/

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news ... iday-night

http://www.toledofreepress.com/2014/12/ ... der-youth/

http://www.equalityohio.org/list-of-vig ... ah-alcorn/

http://www.thegayuk.com/magazine/457433 ... re/9214205

Seriously? It's that big? Wow. This kind of thing happens all the time, so while very sad, I wouldn't have though it'd receive that much attention.

Obviously this is a conspiracy by the liberal media to promote the LGBT agenda and destroy our wholesome family values.

[Liriena]

It is upsetting that the spark that was needed was this; and I really dislike martyrs, but I must make an exception, I think she has accomplished one thing, and in that way she can be at peace. The LGBT community seems to be boiling, there are candlelight vigils being hosted across the country, and now globally - [Organised through facebook, and other media sites - there's one in London for example]; As upsetting as it is that she had to do this, she's forced an issue not many wanted to talk about, and now many are staring it in the face.

I don't condone what her parents had done, I do hold them partially accountable - and I may be angry or upset, but I also know that it'd be a pointless endeavour to harass them. My anger won't bring her back, but it can be used to help and Fix society with what little power I hold. Her suicide was one too many.

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-enact-leelah-s-law-to-ban-transgender-conversion-therapy

http://abcnews.go.com/US/leelah-alcorn- ... d=27912326

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fun ... ts-n278541

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.co ... r_s_claims

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-t ... n-suicide/

http://jezebel.com/mom-on-suicide-of-tr ... 1676986147

http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/20 ... story.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53749.html

http://www.towleroad.com/2014/12/candle ... jan-3.html

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/20 ... /21097257/

https://www.facebook.com/events/933736743311303/

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news ... iday-night

http://www.toledofreepress.com/2014/12/ ... der-youth/

http://www.equalityohio.org/list-of-vig ... ah-alcorn/

http://www.thegayuk.com/magazine/457433 ... re/9214205

Seriously? It's that big? Wow. This kind of thing happens all the time, so while very sad, I wouldn't have though it'd receive that much attention.

I think maybe it was her decision to post her suicide note on Tumblr that made her case gain so much visibility. She didn't commit suicide silently, or leave behind a note on paper that only her family or friends would have found. Instead, she shared her last moments, and the history behind them, with one of the largest social media sites out there. That Tumblr in particular is a site that has a disproportionate amount of transgender users and is overall specially supportive of transgender people probably helped.

[Liriena]

IMO, I don't really care about this situation.

Then why are you posting?

It seriously ticks me off when people who claim they don't care about a particular topic take the time to come into a thread about the topic and tell everybody that they don't care.

[Page]

What the fuck is with the pronoun debate. She is a she because anyone who isn't a terrible person will acknowledge ones gender identity and use their preferred pronouns.