Toddler Shoots and Kills Mother

[Tubbsalot]

You're right. Juvie is too lenient. Lock him up and throw away the key, the murdering bastard.

I didn't say juvie was too lenient.

Yes. It was a joke. I'm starting to suspect that Master Shake is also joking.

[Galloism]

However, leaving the gun at home, unless in a very fixed heavy safe, is pretty irresponsible. One of the largest ways criminals get guns is via home theft.

Again, this is really an argument for not allowing civilians to have guns.

If that was why they required you to carry, then that's ridiculous. If only detectives are keeping their guns on them, then the supply of illegal weapons is reduced by like 0.001%. Whoopee.

Actually, the given justification was so we would be in a position to stop violent crimes in progress that we may happen across, and to give aid and assistance to uniform police if necessary.

Things I can still do as a legal CCW permit holder.

Also, I think you may have gotten the wrong impression (perhaps because I was following two thought trains close together). I worked traffic most of the time, and I was never a detective.

[WestRedMaple]

Both weapons that I mentioned have plenty of internal safeties to prevent accidental discharges. Modern revolvers (with the transfer bar system) are inherently safe.

Edit: The safeties on a Glock can be disabled, but that requires disassembling the gun and reassembling it with a round chambered. Anyone that stupid should be shot.

Ah, I see.

Ultimately that goes to show, then, that having a gun out in public is just an extra hazard for you and others.

Ummm, did you even read the post to which you are replying?

How does having a modern firearm with ample protection against accidental discharges ultimately go to show that carrying a firearm is just an extra hazard?

[Master Shake]

You're right. Juvie is too lenient. Lock him up and throw away the key, the murdering bastard.

I didn't say juvie was too lenient.

I just feel that there is nothing that can be done with this kid...

Any family that adopts him will fear for their safety, thus alienating him further...

Anyone who reminds him of this will risk getting their ass handed to them if the kid has developed any emotional problems in the future/when he becomes an adult...

Put him in Juvie and when he turns 18 he can get a job at McD's or work as a telemarketer...


I never said lock him up for life...

[St Williams Parr County]

I think it's a good idea to tell the child maybe later on that the mother killed herself instead of saying that he killed her, because that child couldn't possibly remember shooting the mother.

[Galloism]

I think it's a good idea to tell the child maybe later on that the mother killed herself instead of saying that he killed her, because that child couldn't possibly remember shooting the mother.

I think saying "there was an accident" is probably quite sufficient.

No need to jump straight to suicide.

[WestRedMaple]

A knife is nearly always less effective than a firearm.

Unless you're already in a situation where you are wrapped up grappling with an opponent, a firearm is the clear winner. A knife is a poor choice for self-defense. It has very poor stopping ability in comparison to a firearm or bludgeoning weapon. Pepper spray is quite inadequate. It's range is very short, it is quite ineffective if you cannot get at someone's face, it's not very effective on everyone, a decent wind can make it very difficult to use or even cause you to get more of it than your target, recovery from its effects is much faster, and even if you've effectively applied it, it still has less stopping power than a firearm, leaving your attacker more opportunity to hurt you.

Given that most encounters are going to be short-range, and you're not carrying your gun ready to fire, you are highly likely to be either grappling or severely/lethally wounded. So yes, a non-lethal or melee weapon would be preferable, especially since they require less preparation.

So you think that if someone is shooting at you, not shooting back is the preferred method of defense. You think that if someone is up close trying to harm you, that you should needlessly give them more opportunity to do so by intentionally using less effective methods, such as a knife or pepper spray.

By all means, though, explain how your alternatives would require less preparation.

[Skeckoa]

(Image)

They don't have their fingers on the triggers. They are acting safer than the people in like 80% of people w/ guns photos. Good for them!

I think it's a good idea to tell the child maybe later on that the mother killed herself instead of saying that he killed her, because that child couldn't possibly remember shooting the mother.

Small town in rural Idaho. If the kid stays living in the town then they are going to find out eventually that he killed his own mother. Can't keep secrets in towns, especially one like that.

[Kazirstan]

"The only thing to stop a Two-year old with a gun is another two year old with a gun!"

If civilians were not allowed to carry firearms around in public, then none of this would have happened. Why do you even need to carry your gun around in Walmart? In Canada, we don't carry firearms around with us, and the country is still running (and has a lower murder rate, and a less corrupt government). It's pointless, and dangerous.

Please. We're not going to amend the constitution and outlaw every firearm over a group of isolated incidents that could be fixed easily with more education programs such as gun safety courses (that the NRA and a number of other groups offer for free or at low cost).

I didn't say outlaw every firearm, if you did that, to most Americans it would be a precursor to the establishment of "Soviet Obamastan, the most oppressive regime in the history of the world".

I said they should outlaw carriage of firearms in public places. Canada has even stricter laws than that, and, as I have already said, the country's running just fine. And this isn't an "isolated incident", shit like this happens every day in the US.

[WestRedMaple]

Alrighty, your claim is obviously ridiculous, but let's give you a chance to support your wild claim: A guy walks up a few feet away from you on the sidewalk, points a gun at you, and threatens your life.....what tool for self-defense would you prefer? How is a concealed firearm useless? (Especially given the fact that it has been used quite successfully in exactly such a situation).

Just had to respond.

My bare hands of course. What you do is put your hands up and plead him not to shoot then move closer into him while moving to the side grab the gun then turn the barrel towards him and then to his side giving him a less intense grip and pull the gun away close to your body barrel facing the attacker and slowly back away keeping it pointed at him (all hims are him/her) and even if they fire the gun while your holding it you'll have adrenaline pumping.

That is of course circumstantial to where they do it basically point blank from up front.

Poor choice. An unarmed combat instructor would counsel against doing that unless you DON'T have a better weapon available.

[Galloism]

Given that most encounters are going to be short-range, and you're not carrying your gun ready to fire, you are highly likely to be either grappling or severely/lethally wounded. So yes, a non-lethal or melee weapon would be preferable, especially since they require less preparation.

So you think that if someone is shooting at you, not shooting back is the preferred method of defense. You think that if someone is up close trying to harm you, that you should needlessly give them more opportunity to do so by intentionally using less effective methods, such as a knife or pepper spray.

By all means, though, explain how your alternatives would require less preparation.

Well, I have a friend that carries a knife for really short range, a scimitar for short to medium range defense, a taser for disabling at short range, a few rocks for medium range, and a crossbow for long range.

He gets stopped by the police a lot.

[Skeckoa]

Well, I have a friend that carries a knife for really short range, a scimitar for short to medium range defense, a taser for disabling at short range, a few rocks for medium range, and a crossbow for long range.

He gets stopped by the police a lot.

Could he possibly be the Delaware Crossbow murderer that was posted on these threads a few weeks back?

[Spoder]

So you think that if someone is shooting at you, not shooting back is the preferred method of defense. You think that if someone is up close trying to harm you, that you should needlessly give them more opportunity to do so by intentionally using less effective methods, such as a knife or pepper spray.

By all means, though, explain how your alternatives would require less preparation.

Well, I have a friend that carries a knife for really short range, a scimitar for short to medium range defense, a taser for disabling at short range, a few rocks for medium range, and a crossbow for long range.

He gets stopped by the police a lot.

A handgun is much more discreet, and effective at a multitude of ranges.

You also don't need to work out regularly to use it effectively.

[MERIZoC]

So you think that if someone is shooting at you, not shooting back is the preferred method of defense. You think that if someone is up close trying to harm you, that you should needlessly give them more opportunity to do so by intentionally using less effective methods, such as a knife or pepper spray.

By all means, though, explain how your alternatives would require less preparation.

Well, I have a friend that carries a knife for really short range, a scimitar for short to medium range defense, a taser for disabling at short range, a few rocks for medium range, and a crossbow for long range.

Seriously?

[WestRedMaple]

A knife is nearly always less effective than a firearm. Unless you're already in a situation where you are wrapped up grappling with an opponent, a firearm is the clear winner. A knife is a poor choice for self-defense. It has very poor stopping ability in comparison to a firearm or bludgeoning weapon. Pepper spray is quite inadequate. It's range is very short, it is quite ineffective if you cannot get at someone's face, it's not very effective on everyone, a decent wind can make it very difficult to use or even cause you to get more of it than your target, recovery from its effects is much faster, and even if you've effectively applied it, it still has less stopping power than a firearm, leaving your attacker more opportunity to hurt you.

Yes it is less effective if your untrained with it (like most of the general populace) but a knife is very deadly if you know how to use one (no stabbing).

And if you are trained with it, it is still less effective. It's range is much lower. It's ability to penetrate whatever someone is wearing is much lower. It has less stopping power, often leaving even a mortally wounded person ample time to harm or kill the defender.

That doesn't mean that someone extremely well-versed in the knife couldn't be more effective with the knife than someone who has never held a firearm before can be with a firearm, but a person knowing what they are doing with both would be more effective with a decent handgun

[WestRedMaple]

Then fuck it, next thing we should be doing is introducing gun safety classes in schools.

Look, I don't disagree with people carrying weapons. But I want to be sure that those who are issued a gun are not complete irresponsible tools.

We used to have gun-safety (and gun clubs) in schools.

I took a safety class first period in either 6th or 7th grade.

[St Williams Parr County]

I think it's a good idea to tell the child maybe later on that the mother killed herself instead of saying that he killed her, because that child couldn't possibly remember shooting the mother.

I think saying "there was an accident" is probably quite sufficient.

No need to jump straight to suicide.

You're right on this. I would think the father would still protect the child from harm.

[Spoder]

Yes it is less effective if your untrained with it (like most of the general populace) but a knife is very deadly if you know how to use one (no stabbing).

And if you are trained with it, it is still less effective. It's range is much lower. It's ability to penetrate whatever someone is wearing is much lower. It has less stopping power, often leaving even a mortally wounded person ample time to harm or kill the defender.

That doesn't mean that someone extremely well-versed in the knife couldn't be more effective with the knife than someone who has never held a firearm before can be with a firearm, but a person knowing what they are doing with both would be more effective with a decent handgun

They'd be more effective with a sporting pistol.

[WestRedMaple]

So, you refuse to acknowledge that you were wrong when you stated this, even in the face of evidence to the contrary:

Firstly, no, that statement still stands. By "good option," I mean preferable to non-lethal weapons.

Secondly, you have yet to produce any evidence aside from "look at my sig, lol this guy's so dumb i keep telling him, rofl."

The statement is ludicrous to anyone with the slightest clue about the topic.

Your suggestion that people should just unecessarily expose themselves to a greater risk of injury or death is a hell of a lot crappier option than defending oneself with a firearm when one is needed

[Galloism]

Well, I have a friend that carries a knife for really short range, a scimitar for short to medium range defense, a taser for disabling at short range, a few rocks for medium range, and a crossbow for long range.

Seriously?

....

[WestRedMaple]

You asked for realistic scenarios, and I gave you one that has actually happened. It sounds like maybe you're confused by the meaning of "realistic".

No, it was a perfectly reasonable scenario, it's just that a gun wouldn't help you in that scenario. Which was sort of my point.

If you think you're better with your hands than with a firearm, then you must be woefully useless with a handgun.

If someone is pointing a gun at you from a metre away, then yes, you have a much much much better chance if you rush them vs. if you pull your gun out and try to fire before your prepared, already-aimed assailant.

You are obviously wrong. A handgun was, in fact, used in the scenario given.

[St Williams Parr County]

Seriously?

....

Who's this? Your son and his little brother fighting again?

[WestRedMaple]

So you think that if someone is shooting at you, not shooting back is the preferred method of defense. You think that if someone is up close trying to harm you, that you should needlessly give them more opportunity to do so by intentionally using less effective methods, such as a knife or pepper spray.

By all means, though, explain how your alternatives would require less preparation.

Well, I have a friend that carries a knife for really short range, a scimitar for short to medium range defense, a taser for disabling at short range, a few rocks for medium range, and a crossbow for long range.

He gets stopped by the police a lot.

I can already hear the dispatcher in my mind 'Address is 349 Market Street, I think it's some more damn LARPers'

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

No amount of 'discussion' or even classes and training will eliminate pure stupid. Which unfortunately, carrying a handgun around without the safety on, and loaded, tossing about in a purse (which I know from experience can be a cluttered and disorganized bag of assorted whatsis in the best of times), was.

That is the unfortunate part. We can't force people to act responsibly.

We can encourage, we can teach, we can do everything in our power to make sure that people /can/ be safe with dangerous things. Without the individuals applying all of that ...

Even more unfortunately, nothing can be done to make this situation any better. I feel really bad for the family.

[United Marxist Nations]

The best idea would probably be to mandate safety training, and there should perhaps be some price-reducing government action for things like gun safes, which, depending on how many (and what kind of) guns they're meant to store, can run anywhere from $50 (single handgun) to $1000+ (more than one rifle, but also accommodating handguns).