New Greek elections

[Teemant]

I one more time say that the graph you posted here isn't reality.

Austerity is painful. You can't have austerity that won't hurt somebody.

I didn't post the graph.

Austerity won't increase debt because it means running balanced or surplus budget.

No it doesn't, it means cutting spending and increasing taxes. Which in turn causes growth to fall, which in turn causes revenue to fall.

There is no way to implement austerity without GDP decline. There will be a GDP decline in the beginning.

But how will Greece economy get back on track then? They can't borrow anymore but they run huge deficit. Cut seems to be the only possible solution.

[Atlanticatia]

According to Eurostat:

General nominal government expenditure in Greece fell from €128.15 billion in 2009, to €108.04 billion in 2013. That's a 15.7% nominal cut.

Now let's adjust for inflation. From 2009 to 2013, total inflation was 10.08%, meaning that €128.15 billion is worth €141.06 billion in 2013 dollars.

Real total public spending in Greece has fallen by 23.4%.

That's pretty close to the estimate I posted, and that's a pretty huge cut. That is austerity.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Which in turn, can increase the debt and deficit.

Austerity won't increase debt because it means running balanced or surplus budget.

Have you ever google searched the term "economics?" No, austerity slows GDP growth, since less money goes into the economy. Which, in turn can increase debt. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

[Atlanticatia]

Austerity won't increase debt because it means running balanced or surplus budget.

Have you ever google searched the term "economics?" No, austerity slows GDP growth, since less money goes into the economy. Which, in turn can increase debt. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

This. It also decreases tax revenues. Even as Greece implemented four straight years of huge tax rises to accompany the spending cuts, real tax revenues have fallen by huge amounts.

Greeks have lost 30% of their living standard, GDP has plummeted, tax revenues have plummeted, and government spending has plummeted, poverty has exploded, the far right and left are on the rise, and unemployment is at unfathomable heights: austerity did not and will not work.

[Teemant]

According to Eurostat:

General nominal government expenditure in Greece fell from €128.15 billion in 2009, to €108.04 billion in 2013. That's a 15.7% nominal cut.

Now let's adjust for inflation. From 2009 to 2013, total inflation was 10.08%, meaning that €128.15 billion is worth €141.06 billion in 2013 dollars.

Real total public spending in Greece has fallen by 23.4%.

That's pretty close to the estimate I posted, and that's a pretty huge cut. That is austerity.

There has been deflation in Greece for 2 years.

[Teemant]

Austerity won't increase debt because it means running balanced or surplus budget.

Have you ever google searched the term "economics?" No, austerity slows GDP growth, since less money goes into the economy. Which, in turn can increase debt. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

If you run budget surplus you can pay back the debt.

[Atlanticatia]

According to Eurostat:

General nominal government expenditure in Greece fell from €128.15 billion in 2009, to €108.04 billion in 2013. That's a 15.7% nominal cut.

Now let's adjust for inflation. From 2009 to 2013, total inflation was 10.08%, meaning that €128.15 billion is worth €141.06 billion in 2013 dollars.

Real total public spending in Greece has fallen by 23.4%.

That's pretty close to the estimate I posted, and that's a pretty huge cut. That is austerity.

There has been deflation in Greece for 2 years.

What's your point? Cumulative inflation has still been 10.08%. Please stop trying to ignore the fact that real public spending has fallen by nearly one-quarter.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

According to Eurostat:

General nominal government expenditure in Greece fell from €128.15 billion in 2009, to €108.04 billion in 2013. That's a 15.7% nominal cut.

Now let's adjust for inflation. From 2009 to 2013, total inflation was 10.08%, meaning that €128.15 billion is worth €141.06 billion in 2013 dollars.

Real total public spending in Greece has fallen by 23.4%.

That's pretty close to the estimate I posted, and that's a pretty huge cut. That is austerity.

There has been deflation in Greece for 2 years.

That has no direct effect on public spending.

[Teemant]

I won't talk about austerity anymore because people hate it for some reason but tell me what do you think Greece must do to get out of this situation.

[Atlanticatia]

Now, if I was Greek, I'd probably feel inclined to vote for a party like Syriza. Can you imagine what it must be like?

Imagine you are between, say, 16 and 25 years old.. 50-60% of your friends are unemployed - that's the youth unemployment rate. Your parents are unemployed. Your family might be trying to live off of a meagre pension that your grandparents get, which has been cut. You can't get a job, you can't get unemployment benefits. Your health care benefits are cut. Your standard of living plummets by 30%. In addition to this, your taxes increase by huge amounts, while family benefits are cut. Suicide rates are up by 45%, and HIV infections increased ten-fold. All while this goes on, you constantly hear about the so-called 'troika' forcing Greece to enact more and more austerity.

If I was in that situation, I'd understand the allure of the far right and far left. I'd probably vote SYRIZA. What else would you turn to? Populist promises of tax cuts, more social spending, jobs, jobs, jobs, debt renegotiation, and free health care would probably sound quite appealing. I imagine that it might be harder to think rationally if you are in that situation, and for good reason.

Austerity has made Greece fall into deprivation, and it brings out extreme politics.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

I won't talk about austerity anymore because people hate it for some reason but tell me what do you think Greece must do to get out of this situation.

So, you're leaving the debate because you can't provide proper arguments? It seems that because someone disagrees with you, you're refusing to argue. It's silly.

And, frankly, I don't claim to know what Greece should do. I don't know if they can get out of this situation in the near future. Austerity isn't working for Greece, but I'm hesitant to say that Greece should have a economic stimulus, because they could run the risk of default. If you would've asked me what Greece should've done a month ago, I would've said a moderate sized stimulus. But, after more research on the topic, I'm wary of that.

[Teemant]

Now, if I was Greek, I'd probably feel inclined to vote for a party like Syriza. Can you imagine what it must be like?

Imagine you are between, say, 16 and 25 years old.. 50-60% of your friends are unemployed - that's the youth unemployment rate. Your parents are unemployed. Your family might be trying to live off of a meagre pension that your grandparents get, which has been cut. You can't get a job, you can't get unemployment benefits. Your health care benefits are cut. Your standard of living plummets by 30%. In addition to this, your taxes increase by huge amounts, while family benefits are cut. Suicide rates are up by 45%, and HIV infections increased ten-fold. All while this goes on, you constantly hear about the so-called 'troika' forcing Greece to enact more and more austerity.

If I was in that situation, I'd understand the allure of the far right and far left. I'd probably vote SYRIZA. What else would you turn to? Promises of tax cuts, more social spending, jobs, jobs, jobs, debt renegotiation, and free health care would probably sound quite appealing. I imagine that it might be harder to think rationally if you are in that situation, and for good reason.

Austerity has made Greece fall into deprivation, and it brings out extreme politics.

But what can Syriza do to get you employed?

[Atlanticatia]

Now, if I was Greek, I'd probably feel inclined to vote for a party like Syriza. Can you imagine what it must be like?

Imagine you are between, say, 16 and 25 years old.. 50-60% of your friends are unemployed - that's the youth unemployment rate. Your parents are unemployed. Your family might be trying to live off of a meagre pension that your grandparents get, which has been cut. You can't get a job, you can't get unemployment benefits. Your health care benefits are cut. Your standard of living plummets by 30%. In addition to this, your taxes increase by huge amounts, while family benefits are cut. Suicide rates are up by 45%, and HIV infections increased ten-fold. All while this goes on, you constantly hear about the so-called 'troika' forcing Greece to enact more and more austerity.

If I was in that situation, I'd understand the allure of the far right and far left. I'd probably vote SYRIZA. What else would you turn to? Promises of tax cuts, more social spending, jobs, jobs, jobs, debt renegotiation, and free health care would probably sound quite appealing. I imagine that it might be harder to think rationally if you are in that situation, and for good reason.

Austerity has made Greece fall into deprivation, and it brings out extreme politics.

But what can Syriza do to get you employed?

I'm just referring to the promises that they have made. I believe they promised the creation of 300,000 jobs. That'd probably sound very attractive to someone in that situation.

[Teemant]

I won't talk about austerity anymore because people hate it for some reason but tell me what do you think Greece must do to get out of this situation.

So, you're leaving the debate because you can't provide proper arguments? It seems that because someone disagrees with you, you're refusing to argue. It's silly.

And, frankly, I don't claim to know what Greece should do. I don't know if they can get out of this situation in the near future. Austerity isn't working for Greece, but I'm hesitant to say that Greece should have a economic stimulus, because they could run the risk of default. If you would've asked me what Greece should've done a month ago, I would've said a moderate sized stimulus. But, after more research on the topic, I'm wary of that.

I don't lack arguments we just can go on forever here. I belive in austerity and for example Latvia cut 40% of goverment employees and 40% of remaining employees salaries. These are massive cuts.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Now, if I was Greek, I'd probably feel inclined to vote for a party like Syriza. Can you imagine what it must be like?

Imagine you are between, say, 16 and 25 years old.. 50-60% of your friends are unemployed - that's the youth unemployment rate. Your parents are unemployed. Your family might be trying to live off of a meagre pension that your grandparents get, which has been cut. You can't get a job, you can't get unemployment benefits. Your health care benefits are cut. Your standard of living plummets by 30%. In addition to this, your taxes increase by huge amounts, while family benefits are cut. Suicide rates are up by 45%, and HIV infections increased ten-fold. All while this goes on, you constantly hear about the so-called 'troika' forcing Greece to enact more and more austerity.

If I was in that situation, I'd understand the allure of the far right and far left. I'd probably vote SYRIZA. What else would you turn to? Populist promises of tax cuts, more social spending, jobs, jobs, jobs, debt renegotiation, and free health care would probably sound quite appealing. I imagine that it might be harder to think rationally if you are in that situation, and for good reason.

Austerity has made Greece fall into deprivation, and it brings out extreme politics.

Unfortunately for Greece, SYRIZA's policies could be worse than New Democracy's policies. Their so called 40 point program calls for a 75% top income tax, nationalization of banks, and a sharp increase in public spending. It's excessive, really, and it would drive investors out of Greece. Even worse, it could increase the deficit and the debt. I dunno who Greece should vote for, or what they should do. Part of me says they should vote for SYRIZA to ensure a Grexit, but then I realize the effect that could have on the Greek economy. Urgh, this is a topic that makes me pensive.

[Teemant]

But what can Syriza do to get you employed?

I'm just referring to the promises that they have made. I believe they promised the creation of 300,000 jobs. That'd probably sound very attractive to someone in that situation.

And have they told how they are going to do this?

They want to raise minimum wage which may lose jobs if you think about it.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

But what can Syriza do to get you employed?

I'm just referring to the promises that they have made. I believe they promised the creation of 300,000 jobs. That'd probably sound very attractive to someone in that situation.

I'm inclined to agree. Many Greeks are struggling, and the promises of jobs, the end of austerity, and the end of the "status quo" may sound appealing to Greeks. Whether or not anti status quo parties like SYRIZA can deliver prosperity is definitely debatable.

[Chestaan]

Now, if I was Greek, I'd probably feel inclined to vote for a party like Syriza. Can you imagine what it must be like?

Imagine you are between, say, 16 and 25 years old.. 50-60% of your friends are unemployed - that's the youth unemployment rate. Your parents are unemployed. Your family might be trying to live off of a meagre pension that your grandparents get, which has been cut. You can't get a job, you can't get unemployment benefits. Your health care benefits are cut. Your standard of living plummets by 30%. In addition to this, your taxes increase by huge amounts, while family benefits are cut. Suicide rates are up by 45%, and HIV infections increased ten-fold. All while this goes on, you constantly hear about the so-called 'troika' forcing Greece to enact more and more austerity.

If I was in that situation, I'd understand the allure of the far right and far left. I'd probably vote SYRIZA. What else would you turn to? Populist promises of tax cuts, more social spending, jobs, jobs, jobs, debt renegotiation, and free health care would probably sound quite appealing. I imagine that it might be harder to think rationally if you are in that situation, and for good reason.

Austerity has made Greece fall into deprivation, and it brings out extreme politics.

Despite people painting Syriza to be the next Lenin, they really aren't that extreme. They've already watered down their views considerably. If anything they're more like an old school social democrat party now than anything else.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

I'm just referring to the promises that they have made. I believe they promised the creation of 300,000 jobs. That'd probably sound very attractive to someone in that situation.

And have they told how they are going to do this?

They want to raise minimum wage which may lose jobs if you think about it.

Well, maybe. I just don't think Greece can afford to raise the minimum wage, since so many small businesses over there are struggling already.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Now, if I was Greek, I'd probably feel inclined to vote for a party like Syriza. Can you imagine what it must be like?

Imagine you are between, say, 16 and 25 years old.. 50-60% of your friends are unemployed - that's the youth unemployment rate. Your parents are unemployed. Your family might be trying to live off of a meagre pension that your grandparents get, which has been cut. You can't get a job, you can't get unemployment benefits. Your health care benefits are cut. Your standard of living plummets by 30%. In addition to this, your taxes increase by huge amounts, while family benefits are cut. Suicide rates are up by 45%, and HIV infections increased ten-fold. All while this goes on, you constantly hear about the so-called 'troika' forcing Greece to enact more and more austerity.

If I was in that situation, I'd understand the allure of the far right and far left. I'd probably vote SYRIZA. What else would you turn to? Populist promises of tax cuts, more social spending, jobs, jobs, jobs, debt renegotiation, and free health care would probably sound quite appealing. I imagine that it might be harder to think rationally if you are in that situation, and for good reason.

Austerity has made Greece fall into deprivation, and it brings out extreme politics.

Despite people painting Syriza to be the next Lenin, they really aren't that extreme. They've already watered down their views considerably. If anything they're more like an old school social democrat party now than anything else.

I'd describe them as democratic socialists akin to Die Linke in Germany, but your point definitely still stands. In fact, it's more of a broad tent anti-establishment party that attracts left wingers of all stripes.

[Teemant]

And have they told how they are going to do this?

They want to raise minimum wage which may lose jobs if you think about it.

Well, maybe. I just don't think Greece can afford to raise the minimum wage, since so many small businesses over there are struggling already.

From 580 euros to 751 euros seems unreasonable in my opinon if they want to create 300 000 new jobs.

[Atlanticatia]

Now, if I was Greek, I'd probably feel inclined to vote for a party like Syriza. Can you imagine what it must be like?

Imagine you are between, say, 16 and 25 years old.. 50-60% of your friends are unemployed - that's the youth unemployment rate. Your parents are unemployed. Your family might be trying to live off of a meagre pension that your grandparents get, which has been cut. You can't get a job, you can't get unemployment benefits. Your health care benefits are cut. Your standard of living plummets by 30%. In addition to this, your taxes increase by huge amounts, while family benefits are cut. Suicide rates are up by 45%, and HIV infections increased ten-fold. All while this goes on, you constantly hear about the so-called 'troika' forcing Greece to enact more and more austerity.

If I was in that situation, I'd understand the allure of the far right and far left. I'd probably vote SYRIZA. What else would you turn to? Populist promises of tax cuts, more social spending, jobs, jobs, jobs, debt renegotiation, and free health care would probably sound quite appealing. I imagine that it might be harder to think rationally if you are in that situation, and for good reason.

Austerity has made Greece fall into deprivation, and it brings out extreme politics.

Unfortunately for Greece, SYRIZA's policies could be worse than New Democracy's policies. Their so called 40 point program calls for a 75% top income tax, nationalization of banks, and a sharp increase in public spending. It's excessive, really, and it would drive investors out of Greece. Even worse, it could increase the deficit and the debt. I dunno who Greece should vote for, or what they should do. Part of me says they should vote for SYRIZA to ensure a Grexit, but then I realize the effect that could have on the Greek economy. Urgh, this is a topic that makes me pensive.

Agreed, I've no choice who the right choice for Greece is.

I think Greece needs some sort of renegotiation of debt to get the economy growing, but the 75% tax rate and stuff mostly seems like plain-old populism. Some of Syriza's policies seem worthwhile though such as tax cuts for the poor, and help for small-to-medium sized enterprises. And restoration of free medical care, and minimum welfare incomes. Apart from the populism which I am not really a fan of in any party, anything to combat this austerity is good.

Greece should do the following:
a) Debt renegotiation that cancels at least some of the debt, because I think another few years of austerity will transform Greece into a third world country. It's already lost 30% of GDP per capita. If this is done, stimulus could work, but only if some debt is cancelled. (Otherwise increases to debt-to-GDP would be too much) At the very least, a short-term moratorium on debt servicing could work, just to allow Greece to get back on its feet.
b) Reforms to reduce red tape for small businesses.
c) Tax cuts for low-income earners.
d) Increase in welfare spending, especially for medical care to combat a public health crisis (HIV and suicide rates are exploding), and to reduce child poverty. Nearly one-half of children are now below the poverty line.
e) Immediate action to reduce youth unemployment before a whole generation is lost

Hopefully the EU can do something on the monetary policy side, as Greece cannot because it doesn't use the drachma, obviously.

[Chestaan]

Unfortunately for Greece, SYRIZA's policies could be worse than New Democracy's policies. Their so called 40 point program calls for a 75% top income tax, nationalization of banks, and a sharp increase in public spending. It's excessive, really, and it would drive investors out of Greece. Even worse, it could increase the deficit and the debt. I dunno who Greece should vote for, or what they should do. Part of me says they should vote for SYRIZA to ensure a Grexit, but then I realize the effect that could have on the Greek economy. Urgh, this is a topic that makes me pensive.

Agreed, I've no choice who the right choice for Greece is.

I think Greece needs some sort of renegotiation of debt to get the economy growing, but the 75% tax rate and stuff mostly seems like plain-old populism. Some of Syriza's policies seem worthwhile though such as tax cuts for the poor, and help for small-to-medium sized enterprises. And restoration of free medical care, and minimum welfare incomes. Apart from the populism which I am not really a fan of in any party, anything to combat this austerity is good.

Greece should do the following:
a) Debt renegotiation that cancels at least some of the debt, because I think another few years of austerity will transform Greece into a third world country. It's already lost 30% of GDP per capita. If this is done, stimulus could work, but only if some debt is cancelled. (Otherwise increases to debt-to-GDP would be too much) At the very least, a short-term moratorium on debt servicing could work, just to allow Greece to get back on its feet.
b) Reforms to reduce red tape for small businesses.
c) Tax cuts for low-income earners.
d) Increase in welfare spending, especially for medical care to combat a public health crisis (HIV and suicide rates are exploding), and to reduce child poverty. Nearly one-half of children are now below the poverty line.
e) Immediate action to reduce youth unemployment before a whole generation is lost

Hopefully the EU can do something on the monetary policy side, as Greece cannot because it doesn't use the drachma, obviously.

Aren't Syriza behind most of that?

Also, the EU have finally decided to start QE, which should hopefully help Greece a little.

[Teemant]

Unfortunately for Greece, SYRIZA's policies could be worse than New Democracy's policies. Their so called 40 point program calls for a 75% top income tax, nationalization of banks, and a sharp increase in public spending. It's excessive, really, and it would drive investors out of Greece. Even worse, it could increase the deficit and the debt. I dunno who Greece should vote for, or what they should do. Part of me says they should vote for SYRIZA to ensure a Grexit, but then I realize the effect that could have on the Greek economy. Urgh, this is a topic that makes me pensive.

Agreed, I've no choice who the right choice for Greece is.

I think Greece needs some sort of renegotiation of debt to get the economy growing, but the 75% tax rate and stuff mostly seems like plain-old populism. Some of Syriza's policies seem worthwhile though such as tax cuts for the poor, and help for small-to-medium sized enterprises. And restoration of free medical care, and minimum welfare incomes. Apart from the populism which I am not really a fan of in any party, anything to combat this austerity is good.

Greece should do the following:
a) Debt renegotiation that cancels at least some of the debt, because I think another few years of austerity will transform Greece into a third world country. It's already lost 30% of GDP per capita. If this is done, stimulus could work, but only if some debt is cancelled. (Otherwise increases to debt-to-GDP would be too much) At the very least, a short-term moratorium on debt servicing could work, just to allow Greece to get back on its feet.
b) Reforms to reduce red tape for small businesses.
c) Tax cuts for low-income earners.
d) Increase in welfare spending, especially for medical care to combat a public health crisis (HIV and suicide rates are exploding), and to reduce child poverty. Nearly one-half of children are now below the poverty line.
e) Immediate action to reduce youth unemployment before a whole generation is lost

Hopefully the EU can do something on the monetary policy side, as Greece cannot because it doesn't use the drachma, obviously.

How is debt cancelling going to help Greece if they increase goverment spending again. Then they will need another one in few years.

I don't think there will be cancelling of debt.

[Slakonian]

Golden Dawn second? No suprised, many former members of People's Orthodox Rally also known as LAOS have joined them alongside with thousands of former New Democracy members. In 2013 when I left the communist party(alongside with many others) for being in backwards and unpologetic stalinist supporter.... I saw some of my former "comrades" even joining them. Don't know what to say