New Greek elections

[Liberty and Linguistics]

While their program is certainly not "radically socialist", I'd argue that it's still quite left wing. Particularly, their 40 point program. Many of those proposals make me wary about the future of Greece. Although, I have reason to suspect that if SYRIZA is elected, they won't be able to accomplish some of their more "radical goals."
http://links.org.au/node/2888

Having a brief looks, I would concur. It feels more than just simply Keyensian (this coming from someone who is quite supportive of Keynes), and I would argue that quite a lot of its points are driven by ideology rather than cold economic logic that Keynes would likely espouse. Its not terrible by any means and you say, it won't nearly all happen. I particularly like the idea of coming to an accord with Turkey in theory, though practice may turn out to be a different matter. Having said that, a lot of it is also very admirable.

I have definite problems with this one though (not an economics point but still): 40. Closure of all foreign bases in Greece and withdrawal from NATO.

Indeed. It's simply a unfeasible program, especially given the fact that Greece has a massive deficit and debt problem. Granted, if SYRIZA wins, I doubt they'd be able to nationalize the banks and raise the top income tax rate to 75%, but if I were Greek, I simply wouldn't want to take that risk.

[Calimera II]

Having a brief looks, I would concur. It feels more than just simply Keyensian (this coming from someone who is quite supportive of Keynes), and I would argue that quite a lot of its points are driven by ideology rather than cold economic logic that Keynes would likely espouse. Its not terrible by any means and you say, it won't nearly all happen. I particularly like the idea of coming to an accord with Turkey in theory, though practice may turn out to be a different matter. Having said that, a lot of it is also very admirable.

I have definite problems with this one though (not an economics point but still): 40. Closure of all foreign bases in Greece and withdrawal from NATO.

Indeed. It's simply a unfeasible program, especially given the fact that Greece has a massive deficit and debt problem. Granted, if SYRIZA wins, I doubt they'd be able to nationalize the banks and raise the top income tax rate to 75%, but if I were Greek, I simply wouldn't want to take that risk.

Never say never. Somehow Argentina managed to 'escape' from the IMF's iron hand and recovered economically. Nonetheless, I agree; if I were a Greek businessman I wouldn't vote for Syriza. Instead I would go for To Potami or Nea Demokratia.

[Camelza]

While their program is certainly not "radically socialist", I'd argue that it's still quite left wing. Particularly, their 40 point program. Many of those proposals make me wary about the future of Greece. Although, I have reason to suspect that if SYRIZA is elected, they won't be able to accomplish some of their more "radical goals."
http://links.org.au/node/2888

Having a brief looks, I would concur. It feels more than just simply Keyensian (this coming from someone who is quite supportive of Keynes), and I would argue that quite a lot of its points are driven by ideology rather than cold economic logic that Keynes would likely espouse. Its not terrible by any means and you say, it won't nearly all happen. I particularly like the idea of coming to an accord with Turkey in theory, though practice may turn out to be a different matter. Having said that, a lot of it is also very admirable.

I have definite problems with this one though (not an economics point but still): 40. Closure of all foreign bases in Greece and withdrawal from NATO.

Just for your information, Syriza as many parties uses populist tactics when elections get closer. However, If you actually listen to any of Tsakalotos'(Finance shadow minister of Syriza) speeches you'll understand that much of the 40-point programme will not be implemented, especially regarding heavy taxation on the higher strata and nationalisations.
Leaving Nato is part of the demilitarisation proccess Syriza plans for Greece and it's not a sign of anti-western sentiments.

[Valaran]

Having a brief looks, I would concur. It feels more than just simply Keyensian (this coming from someone who is quite supportive of Keynes), and I would argue that quite a lot of its points are driven by ideology rather than cold economic logic that Keynes would likely espouse. Its not terrible by any means and you say, it won't nearly all happen. I particularly like the idea of coming to an accord with Turkey in theory, though practice may turn out to be a different matter. Having said that, a lot of it is also very admirable.

I have definite problems with this one though (not an economics point but still): 40. Closure of all foreign bases in Greece and withdrawal from NATO.

Indeed. It's simply a unfeasible program, especially given the fact that Greece has a massive deficit and debt problem. Granted, if SYRIZA wins, I doubt they'd be able to nationalize the banks and raise the top income tax rate to 75%, but if I were Greek, I simply wouldn't want to take that risk.

Its not overly unfeasible though. Aside from a few I'd reject out of hand (bank nationalisation being top of that list), its not overly far off from something I'd vote for if I was Greek - especially given the alternatives. It still needs some work though before I would definitively support it.

And I kind of expect unfeasible statements from pre-election manifestos now. The real test for me is how pragmatic and effective they become in government.

[Valaran]

Just for your information, Syriza as many parties uses populist tactics when elections get closer. However, If you actually listen to any of Tsakalotos'(Finance shadow minister of Syriza) speeches you'll understand that much of the 40-point programme will not be implemented, especially regarding heavy taxation on the higher strata and nationalisations.
Leaving Nato is part of the demilitarisation proccess Syriza plans for Greece and it's not a sign of anti-western sentiments.

Yeah.

And I kind of expect unfeasible statements from pre-election manifestos now. The real test for me is how pragmatic and effective they become in government.

And I did hear that their tone seems to have been moderating as the prospect of governing got closer. I guess I'm still unable to gauge whether the've moderated enough for my tastes though (hence my desire for more impartial information).

It may not be a sign of such sentiments, but I still disagree with it on principle (being the pro-west NATO supporter I am).

[Baltenstein]

If there's one thing I'm absolutely certain that Syriza will drop, it's the stuff about leaving NATO.

[Valaran]

If there's one thing I'm absolutely certain that Syriza will drop, it's the stuff about leaving NATO.

That's what I would hope.

To be honest I'm just surprised it was even included in the first place.

[Camelza]

Their official programme would be a good start, also examining and listening to its key-members, like Dimitris Papadimoulis, Zoe Konstantopoulou and more importantly Efklidis Tsakalotos.

Thanks

You wouldn't happen to know any good independent analysis as well? (The BBC is somewhat lacking, as is the economist and several other usual channels)

Kathimerini, despite being a conservative newspaper, is quite good at anlysing Syriza's economic platform.
Most foreign media are either extremely supportive, or aggresive towards Syriza for the wrong reasons. BBC is not half-bad in comparisson to other media.
This is a rather mediocre analysis, it is lacking much information though;
http://theconversation.com/syrizas-not- ... oice-36229

[Baltenstein]

If there's one thing I'm absolutely certain that Syriza will drop, it's the stuff about leaving NATO.

That's what I would hope.

To be honest I'm just surprised it was even included in the first place.

Anti-militarism is a frequent feature of the European Left. However, this is one of those cases where pragmatism will always trump idealism.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Indeed. It's simply a unfeasible program, especially given the fact that Greece has a massive deficit and debt problem. Granted, if SYRIZA wins, I doubt they'd be able to nationalize the banks and raise the top income tax rate to 75%, but if I were Greek, I simply wouldn't want to take that risk.

Never say never. Somehow Argentina managed to 'escape' from the IMF's iron hand and recovered economically. Nonetheless, I agree; if I were a Greek businessman I wouldn't vote for Syriza. Instead I would go for To Potami or Nea Demokratia.

Eh, whatcha mean? They were never in a situation as bad as Greece's? But, I'll grant you that, Argentina is doing alright now. They're not doing great, as they have a relatively high inflation rare, but their GDP is growing steadily, as is their GDP per capita.

And, I wouldn't vote for Nea Demokratia, as their economic policies won't reduce debt and get Greece out of the recession. I'd probably plug my nose and vote for Papendrou's new party, even though it's pretty shitty.

[Valaran]

Thanks

You wouldn't happen to know any good independent analysis as well? (The BBC is somewhat lacking, as is the economist and several other usual channels)

Kathimerini, despite being a conservative newspaper, is quite good at anlysing Syriza's economic platform.
Most foreign media are either extremely supportive, or aggresive towards Syriza for the wrong reasons. BBC is not half-bad in comparisson to other media.
This is a rather mediocre analysis, it is lacking much information though;
http://theconversation.com/syrizas-not- ... oice-36229

Thanks, again.

Yeah, that was the problem I found. The BBC is ok, but it can be rather basic at times, as well as ignoring the issue in favour of other events.

I'll be reading that then.

That's what I would hope.

To be honest I'm just surprised it was even included in the first place.

Anti-militarism is a frequent feature of the European Left. However, this is one of those cases where pragmatism will always trump idealism.

As a kind-of member of the European left I had noticed

You're almost certainly right. I guess I just had a knee-jerk reaction to seeing it.

[Martean]

This video of an ex-ND woman has become viral here, for those of you who can't understand Greek or Spanish, is just an (old?) woman who claims she has voted New Democracy all her life and now wants to vote Tsipras because she can see 'purity in his eyes' and things like that. I see it as a wobbly statement, but it's her vote and she will do whatever she wants with it.

[MERIZoC]

This video of an ex-ND woman has become viral here, for those of you who can't understand Greek or Spanish, is just an (old?) woman who claims she has voted New Democracy all her life and now wants to vote Tsipras because she can see 'purity in his eyes' and things like that. I see it as a wobbly statement, but it's her vote and she will do whatever she wants with it.

Those eyes tho.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

This video of an ex-ND woman has become viral here, for those of you who can't understand Greek or Spanish, is just an (old?) woman who claims she has voted New Democracy all her life and now wants to vote Tsipras because she can see 'purity in his eyes' and things like that. I see it as a wobbly statement, but it's her vote and she will do whatever she wants with it.

I'm not quite sure how one can see purity in ones eyes. Then again, I don't see any honesty in Samaras' eyes.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

This video of an ex-ND woman has become viral here, for those of you who can't understand Greek or Spanish, is just an (old?) woman who claims she has voted New Democracy all her life and now wants to vote Tsipras because she can see 'purity in his eyes' and things like that. I see it as a wobbly statement, but it's her vote and she will do whatever she wants with it.

Those eyes tho.

His eyes, they're so dreamy....er....pure.

[MERIZoC]

This video of an ex-ND woman has become viral here, for those of you who can't understand Greek or Spanish, is just an (old?) woman who claims she has voted New Democracy all her life and now wants to vote Tsipras because she can see 'purity in his eyes' and things like that. I see it as a wobbly statement, but it's her vote and she will do whatever she wants with it.

I'm not quite sure how one can see purity in ones eyes. Then again, I don't see any honesty in Samaras' eyes.

I actually just stared at a picture of Tsipras for a minute to try and find the purity.

[Baltenstein]

I'm not quite sure how one can see purity in ones eyes. Then again, I don't see any honesty in Samaras' eyes.

I actually just stared at a picture of Tsipras for a minute to try and find the purity.

Which one?

[Greater-London]

If I was Greek I would vote Syriza. It's the most likely way the Greeks will leave the Euro.

[Shofercia]

If there's one thing I'm absolutely certain that Syriza will drop, it's the stuff about leaving NATO.

That's what I would hope.

To be honest I'm just surprised it was even included in the first place.

So that NATO won't force Greece to buy stuff that Greece doesn't actually need. For instance - Lithuania's discussing an increase in military expenditure. Aside from weapons companies making money, the increase is pointless, since no one is actually going to go "oh my, instead of spending 1 percent on the military, Lithuania spends 2, well, that clearly changes all of our calculations!"

That said, governments are free to waste money, unless they're in a Greek Financial Shithole, in which case they cannot afford to do that. So if SYRIZA says "drop NATO!" and gets a few anti-NATO protests going, then SYRIZA can say "well, we'll keep NATO, but we don't want to escalate protests, so no increase to military spending, sorry." And then "but not really, hehehe"

Greece needs to balance the goal of staying in NATO and decreasing military spending on stuff. Personnel and R&D are a different story.

[Baltenstein]

NATO has little say in what kind of armor a member-country buys and how much of their GDP they spend for defense. Rasmussen can suggest things, but it's ultimately up to the individual member-states. Iceland doesn't even have an army.
The only thing a NATO withdrawal would achieve would be alienating the rest of the NATO counties (most of whom are also the EU countries with which Greece will have to strike a deal) and dramatically shrinking Greece's geostrategic capital in things like the Aegean dispute and the Cyprus partition, where NATO would go on to simply support their remaining member-state by default.
Actually, if the Syriza government goes on and gives the defense budget some much-needed cuts, it will only be able to do so out of the comfort of NATO protection. Willingly giving up that insurance policy means that Greece might just as well give in to any possible future Turkish demands of border rearrangement.
Not even France, for all of de Gaulle's posturing, was ever serious about withdrawing from NATO.

[Shofercia]

NATO has little say in what kind of armor a member-country buys and how much of their GDP they spend for defense. Rasmussen can suggest things, but it's ultimately up to the individual member-states. Iceland doesn't even have an army.
The only thing a NATO withdrawal would achieve would be alienating the rest of the NATO counties (most of whom are also the EU countries with which Greece will have to strike a deal) and dramatically shrinking Greece's geostrategic capital in things like the Aegean dispute and the Cyprus partition, where NATO would go on to simply support their remaining member-state by default.
Actually, if the Syriza government goes on and gives the defense budget some much-needed cuts, it will only be able to do so out of the comfort of NATO protection. Willingly giving up that insurance policy means that Greece might just as well give in to any possible future Turkish demands of border rearrangement.
Not even France, for all of de Gaulle's posturing, was ever serious about withdrawing from NATO.

On paper. In reality, there are numerous ways that NATO can influence Greece, and I'd debate DeGaulle with ya, but let's do that some other time. The key here is that we both agree that:

1. Greece needs to remain in NATO
2. Greece needs to cut their military stuff budget

I wouldn't cut personnel budget, since unemployment in Greece is high enough, and cutting R&D budget rarely works out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/06/world ... .html?_r=0

NATO asks member states to spend 2 percent of their gross domestic product on their armed forces, yet only a handful of them actually do. Estonia, the small Baltic state at the alliance’s far eastern edge, is one of them, and Poland, by far the largest and richest country on that flank, is at 1.95 percent. “This is one of the reasons that when President Obama comes to the region, he visits Estonia and Poland,” said Karlis Bukovskis, deputy director of the Latvian Institute of International Affairs. But even the most vulnerable nations, including some with sizable Russian ethnic minorities that might tempt a repeat of Russia’s incursion into Ukraine, are spending far less than the 2 percent benchmark. Latvia and Lithuania are spending less than 1 percent, though both have indicated they intend to ratchet up to 2 percent by 2020. Hungary and Slovakia are at about 1 percent, and Romania, which recently said it would bolster military spending, is at about 1.5 percent.

[Risottia]

NATO asks member states to spend 2 percent of their gross domestic product on their armed forces

That would be another reason why we as Europe need a common defence policy of our own, and common procurements. We could have a better defence for less money (standardisation goes a long way), and we really can't allow to blast so much of our money on defence.

[Saiwania]

I am counting on a strong showing by Golden Dawn, if they don't win outright, I'll be happy if they take second or third place.

[Kenora County]

>Syriza wins the elections; Greece leaves the Eurozone
>Le Pen wins the French presidential election in 2017
>Britain leaves the EU after an In/Out referendum

can you picture that?

[Kenora County]

also, I wonder if someone is going to pull a "Spinning Boris" in this election just so Greece can remain in the Eurozone.