New Greek elections

[Teemant]

Krugman.

I simply don't trust his point of view. He said austerity in Estonia was never going to work but Estonia is in better shape right now than before global economic crisis.

I don't know about Estonia but I do know that having to choose between you and a Nobel Prize winner, I'll go with the latter. The thing is, if Krugman was wrong on Estonia, I imagine he's owned up to it. The austerity crowd in Europe has never admitted that their programs for the debtor nations have not worked. They just keep saying those countries didn't do it right.

I suppose I'll have to ask both you and Calimera for sources now.

I don't know what you exactly want but look this GDP graph for example: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/gdp. (Economic crisis hit Estonia in 2009).

If you want something else then I'll post it here.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

I don't know about Estonia but I do know that having to choose between you and a Nobel Prize winner, I'll go with the latter. The thing is, if Krugman was wrong on Estonia, I imagine he's owned up to it. The austerity crowd in Europe has never admitted that their programs for the debtor nations have not worked. They just keep saying those countries didn't do it right.

I suppose I'll have to ask both you and Calimera for sources now.

I don't know what you exactly want but look this GDP graph for example: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/gdp. (Economic crisis hit Estonia in 2009).

If you want something else then I'll post it here.

Personally, I don't want you ignoring my posts, and I want you to admit that you don't know the definition of austerity.

[Allegan County]

Greece has now succumbed to the same populistic, spending-heavy bullshit that got them here in the first place.

Yeah, those austerity measures definitely worked.

I couldn't detect any kind of support for austerity in his post.

[Farnhamia]

I don't know about Estonia but I do know that having to choose between you and a Nobel Prize winner, I'll go with the latter. The thing is, if Krugman was wrong on Estonia, I imagine he's owned up to it. The austerity crowd in Europe has never admitted that their programs for the debtor nations have not worked. They just keep saying those countries didn't do it right.

I suppose I'll have to ask both you and Calimera for sources now.

I don't know what you exactly want but look this GDP graph for example: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/gdp.

If you want something else then I'll post it here.

I believe that Estonia's doing fine. Sources for Krugman claiming austerity wasn't going to work in Estonia, is what I meant. I can't find any on the NY Times, where he publishes. Similarly for Argentina. There is one article that says he held up Argentina as a model for Greece but doesn't provide any link to where. I'm not saying he didn't say these things, I'd just like to see where.

[Teemant]

I don't know what you exactly want but look this GDP graph for example: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/gdp. (Economic crisis hit Estonia in 2009).

If you want something else then I'll post it here.

Personally, I don't want you ignoring my posts, and I want you to admit that you don't know the definition of austerity.

I didn't ignore you.

[Farnhamia]

Personally, I don't want you ignoring my posts, and I want you to admit that you don't know the definition of austerity.

I didn't ignore you.

Don't worry about it. I ignore him all the time.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Personally, I don't want you ignoring my posts, and I want you to admit that you don't know the definition of austerity.

I didn't ignore you.

Well, I told you that you got the definition of austerity wrong, without a response.

[Saiwania]

Golden Dawn winning 3rd place isn't so bad of a loss, they did well all things considered.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Golden Dawn winning 3rd place isn't so bad of a loss, they did well all thing considered.

Didn't they lose a few seats? Although, when Golden Dawn wins parliamentary seats, Greece ultimately loses.

[Teemant]

I didn't ignore you.

Well, I told you that you got the definition of austerity wrong, without a response.

I didn't disagree with what you said. Just that the purpose of cutting spending and raising taxes is to eliminate budget deficit.

[Dejanic]

This is a pretty decent result for Greece. Whilst ANEL aren't ideal, I do understand why Syriza chose them, as when it comes down to it ANEL is anti austerity, and their right wing social views are pretty irrelevant as the party is too small to effect policy. Pasok are a straight up right wing neo-liberal party, so there's no appeal for Syriza concerning PASOK. And the KKE are just eww.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Well, I told you that you got the definition of austerity wrong, without a response.

I didn't disagree with what you said. Just that the purpose of cutting spending and raising taxes is to eliminate budget deficit.

Right. And, if Greece still has a deficit, wouldn't that show the failure of austerity?

[Teemant]

I didn't disagree with what you said. Just that the purpose of cutting spending and raising taxes is to eliminate budget deficit.

Right. And, if Greece still has a deficit, wouldn't that show the failure of austerity?

To me it shows that they didn't cut enough. For example in Baltics all cuts were immediately but in Greece they make these cuts for a years now and has still not reached cuts like Latvia did (among 3 baltic countries Latvia was in worst situation).

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Right. And, if Greece still has a deficit, wouldn't that show the failure of austerity?

To me it shows that they didn't cut enough. For example in Baltics all cuts were immediately but in Greece they make these cuts for a years now and has still not reached cuts like Latvia did (among 3 baltic countries Latvia was in worst situation).

p

Greece's cuts were larger than those in the Baltics. Much larger.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/opini ... d=all&_r=0

[Saiwania]

Didn't they lose a few seats? Although, when Golden Dawn wins parliamentary seats, Greece ultimately loses.

Golden Dawn has only lost 1 seat. The front running party only got around 2.2 million votes. So Golden Dawn only needs to close a gap of 2 million. The turnout for the 7 leading parties was only about 5.6 million. There is a pool of a little less than 10 million people in total in Greece that are potential voters if not future ones.

I'm sure a Golden Dawn victory can be pulled off later if they can scrounge up 2 million more to what they already have.
A Golden Dawn Greece is what I'm anticipating.

[Farnhamia]

To me it shows that they didn't cut enough. For example in Baltics all cuts were immediately but in Greece they make these cuts for a years now and has still not reached cuts like Latvia did (among 3 baltic countries Latvia was in worst situation).

p

Greece's cuts were larger than those in the Baltics. Much larger.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/opini ... d=all&_r=0

Indeed, and in Krugman's article I linked on the preceding page, he explains ...

What actually transpired was an economic and human nightmare. Far from ending in 2011, the Greek recession gathered momentum. Greece didn’t hit the bottom until 2014, and by that point it had experienced a full-fledged depression, with overall unemployment rising to 28 percent and youth unemployment rising to almost 60 percent. And the recovery now underway, such as it is, is barely visible, offering no prospect of returning to precrisis living standards for the foreseeable future.

What went wrong? I fairly often encounter assertions to the effect that Greece didn’t carry through on its promises, that it failed to deliver the promised spending cuts. Nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, Greece imposed savage cuts in public services, wages of government workers and social benefits. Thanks to repeated further waves of austerity, public spending was cut much more than the original program envisaged, and it’s currently about 20 percent lower than it was in 2010.

Yet Greek debt troubles are if anything worse than before the program started. One reason is that the economic plunge has reduced revenues: The Greek government is collecting a substantially higher share of G.D.P. in taxes than it used to, but G.D.P. has fallen so quickly that the overall tax take is down. Furthermore, the plunge in G.D.P. has caused a key fiscal indicator, the ratio of debt to G.D.P., to keep rising even though debt growth has slowed and Greece received some modest debt relief in 2012.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Didn't they lose a few seats? Although, when Golden Dawn wins parliamentary seats, Greece ultimately loses.

Golden Dawn has only lost 1 seat. The front running party only got around 2.2 million votes. So Golden Dawn only needs to close a gap of 2 million. The turnout for the 7 leading parties was only about 5.6 million. There is a pool of a little less than 10 million people in total in Greece that are potential voters if not future ones.

I'm sure a Golden Dawn victory can be pulled off later if they can scrounge up 2 million more to what they already have.
A Golden Dawn Greece is what I'm anticipating.

Increase support tenfold? Easy-peasy! I think there's a lot of minor parties who need someone of your skills.

[Baltenstein]

Didn't they lose a few seats? Although, when Golden Dawn wins parliamentary seats, Greece ultimately loses.

Golden Dawn has only lost 1 seat. The front running party only got around 2.2 million votes. So Golden Dawn only needs to close a gap of 2 million. The turnout for the 7 leading parties was only about 5.6 million. There is a pool of a little less than 10 million people in total in Greece that are potential voters if not future ones.

I'm sure a Golden Dawn victory can be pulled off later if they can scrounge up 2 million more to what they already have.
A Golden Dawn Greece is what I'm anticipating.

They just need to get...six times as many votes as they actually got. Total victory is literally within their grasp! Not.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Right. And, if Greece still has a deficit, wouldn't that show the failure of austerity?

To me it shows that they didn't cut enough. For example in Baltics all cuts were immediately but in Greece they make these cuts for a years now and has still not reached cuts like Latvia did (among 3 baltic countries Latvia was in worst situation).

Or that they cut too much and it has strangled all hope and confidence, preventing any recovery.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Didn't they lose a few seats? Although, when Golden Dawn wins parliamentary seats, Greece ultimately loses.

Golden Dawn has only lost 1 seat. The front running party only got around 2.2 million votes. So Golden Dawn only needs to close a gap of 2 million. The turnout for the 7 leading parties was only about 5.6 million. There is a pool of a little less than 10 million people in total in Greece that are potential voters if not future ones.

I'm sure a Golden Dawn victory can be pulled off later if they can scrounge up 2 million more to what they already have.
A Golden Dawn Greece is what I'm anticipating.

Ah, so you hate Greece and the democratic values it stands for? Color me surprised.

[Teemant]

To me it shows that they didn't cut enough. For example in Baltics all cuts were immediately but in Greece they make these cuts for a years now and has still not reached cuts like Latvia did (among 3 baltic countries Latvia was in worst situation).

p

Greece's cuts were larger than those in the Baltics. Much larger.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/opini ... d=all&_r=0

Sure that Latvia did cut more.

Latvia did cut more than Greece. And situation was worse in Latvia where in one point 30% of people were unemployed and in 2009 alone Latvian economy declined 18%. Much worse than Greece but Latvia is now in much better situation than Greece.

[Insaeldor]

Didn't they lose a few seats? Although, when Golden Dawn wins parliamentary seats, Greece ultimately loses.

Golden Dawn has only lost 1 seat. The front running party only got around 2.2 million votes. So Golden Dawn only needs to close a gap of 2 million. The turnout for the 7 leading parties was only about 5.6 million. There is a pool of a little less than 10 million people in total in Greece that are potential voters if not future ones.

I'm sure a Golden Dawn victory can be pulled off later if they can scrounge up 2 million more to what they already have.
A Golden Dawn Greece is what I'm anticipating.

That's comparable to the Libertarian Party here in the states wining a majority. Or rather UKIP some how winning a plurality in the UK parliament which are both extremely unlikely anytime soon.

The only reason SYRIZA won was because in comparison to other parties they ran in a platform that wasn't mired in ideology or social issues they won because they spoke to the fact that the Greeks hate the Austarity measures put in place by the Center-Right government. GD speaks to many nationalistic Greeks yes but the average Greek with a disaste for austerity greatly out numbers the type of nationalistic Greeks that GD attracts.

[Baltenstein]

Golden Dawn has only lost 1 seat. The front running party only got around 2.2 million votes. So Golden Dawn only needs to close a gap of 2 million. The turnout for the 7 leading parties was only about 5.6 million. There is a pool of a little less than 10 million people in total in Greece that are potential voters if not future ones.

I'm sure a Golden Dawn victory can be pulled off later if they can scrounge up 2 million more to what they already have.
A Golden Dawn Greece is what I'm anticipating.

That's comparable to the Libertarian Party here in the states wining a majority. Or rather UKIP some how winning a plurality in the UK parliament which are both extremely unlikely anytime soon.

The only reason SYRIZA won was because in comparison to other parties they ran in a platform that wasn't mired in ideology or social issues they won because they spoke to the fact that the Greeks hate the Austarity measures put in place by the Center-Right government. GD speaks to many nationalistic Greeks yes but the average Greek with a disaste for austerity greatly out numbers the type of nationalistic Greeks that GD attracts.

Golden Dawn is not the only Greek party with nationalist appeal. ANEL also have a pretty nationalist platform, so does LAOS and New Democracy isn't exactly big on multiculturalism/internationalism either.

Golden Dawn however, differs from the others in that they are openly Fascist in their agenda, ideology and appearance.

[Lucasaer]

These are interesting times in the EU. I couldnt imagine the left and the right party in my country to make a coalition on federal level (Germany).

[Insaeldor]

That's comparable to the Libertarian Party here in the states wining a majority. Or rather UKIP some how winning a plurality in the UK parliament which are both extremely unlikely anytime soon.

The only reason SYRIZA won was because in comparison to other parties they ran in a platform that wasn't mired in ideology or social issues they won because they spoke to the fact that the Greeks hate the Austarity measures put in place by the Center-Right government. GD speaks to many nationalistic Greeks yes but the average Greek with a disaste for austerity greatly out numbers the type of nationalistic Greeks that GD attracts.

Golden Dawn is not the only Greek party with nationalist appeal. ANEL also have a pretty nationalist platform, so does LAOS and New Democracy isn't exactly big on multiculturalism/internationalism either.

Golden Dawn however, differs from the others in that they are openly Fascist in their agenda, ideology and appearance.

Why a stated they appeal to a specific type of nationalist. It's sort of like the difference between the Republicans and their internal faction the Tea Party. While the Republican Party as a whole appeals to people who tend to hold more nationalistic feelings the Tea Party panders to the extreme of that nationalistic ideal. That's best way I can explain in US terms at least.