Should "bullycide" be murder?

[Nazi Flower Power]

Harassment is a crime, but it's not murder. Since the person who committed suicide can't press charges, their next of kin should be allowed to do so on their behalf -- but still for harassment, not murder or manslaughter. When someone commits suicide after being bullied, there is no way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the suicide was a direct result of the bullying and not something the person would have done anyway.

[The Black Forrest]

Harassment is a crime, but it's not murder. Since the person who committed suicide can't press charges, their next of kin should be allowed to do so on their behalf -- but still for harassment, not murder or manslaughter. When someone commits suicide after being bullied, there is no way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the suicide was a direct result of the bullying and not something the person would have done anyway.

The problem is the old definition where we see one person as the bully. I used to think that way over some of the suicides. However, I read a few of their stories and it was a pack of bullies. One gal for example had 8 people tormenting all the time.

The US doesn't like to admit mental disease is a problem until then we will have these incidents continue.

[Manisdog]

It makes you stronger, helps you take shit better.

No. It just traumatized me, and stole my entire childhood from me.

Well I am not understanding how bullying traumatized you but than it was all fun, now when I look at it, it was fun, that forced marching, forced push ups and pull ups made me stronger and I am now thanks to the forced physical training become physically and mentally stronger, had my school seniors not done that to me, I would have been a weaker person. If anything getting bullied helped me to handle pressure, I learned how to respect authority and generally become a better person. It is pretty much like this, you need to break a horse before riding it.

[The Black Forrest]

No. It just traumatized me, and stole my entire childhood from me.

Well I am not understanding how I was so called bullied but than it was all fun, now when I look at it, it was fun, that forced marching, forced push ups and pull ups made me stronger and I am now thanks to the forced physical training become physically and mentally stronger, had my school seniors not done that to me, I would have been a weaker person. If anything getting bullied helped me to handle pressure, I learned how to respect authority and generally become a better person. It is pretty much like this, you need to break a horse before riding it.

It's rather simple minded to suggest it will work for everybody else.

Do you have issues of severe depression? Chemical imbalance, etc......

[Nazi Flower Power]

Harassment is a crime, but it's not murder. Since the person who committed suicide can't press charges, their next of kin should be allowed to do so on their behalf -- but still for harassment, not murder or manslaughter. When someone commits suicide after being bullied, there is no way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the suicide was a direct result of the bullying and not something the person would have done anyway.

The problem is the old definition where we see one person as the bully. I used to think that way over some of the suicides. However, I read a few of their stories and it was a pack of bullies. One gal for example had 8 people tormenting all the time.

The US doesn't like to admit mental disease is a problem until then we will have these incidents continue.

You can charge the whole pack with harassment.

[Oakenland]

So lets say a kid called me ugly, and he's 15. I'm in my mid 20's. I feel super hurt, I write a note stating that this kid called me ugly, and go kill myself. Does he get charged with the murder?


Serious question, not sure where I stand on the "bullycide" topic.

[Manisdog]

Well I am not understanding how I was so called bullied but than it was all fun, now when I look at it, it was fun, that forced marching, forced push ups and pull ups made me stronger and I am now thanks to the forced physical training become physically and mentally stronger, had my school seniors not done that to me, I would have been a weaker person. If anything getting bullied helped me to handle pressure, I learned how to respect authority and generally become a better person. It is pretty much like this, you need to break a horse before riding it.

It's rather simple minded to suggest it will work for everybody else.

Do you have issues of severe depression? Chemical imbalance, etc......

When I passed out of school in 2005, Corporal Punishment was legal, today if teachers hit students it is considered as bullying by the teacher, I mean, seriously there is something terribly wrong going on here, We are making our children soft.

And no, I don't have any issues

[The Black Forrest]

The problem is the old definition where we see one person as the bully. I used to think that way over some of the suicides. However, I read a few of their stories and it was a pack of bullies. One gal for example had 8 people tormenting all the time.

The US doesn't like to admit mental disease is a problem until then we will have these incidents continue.

You can charge the whole pack with harassment.

Sure. A slap on the hand, community service. That will teach them.

[The Black Forrest]

It's rather simple minded to suggest it will work for everybody else.

Do you have issues of severe depression? Chemical imbalance, etc......

When I passed out of school in 2005, Corporal Punishment was legal, today if teachers hit students it is considered as bullying by the teacher, I mean, seriously there is something terribly wrong going on here, We are making our children soft.

Oh an ITG.

[Manisdog]

When I passed out of school in 2005, Corporal Punishment was legal, today if teachers hit students it is considered as bullying by the teacher, I mean, seriously there is something terribly wrong going on here, We are making our children soft.

Oh an ITG.

No it is not about being tough, I am just talking about the lack of discipline and children becoming sensitive because of that, when I was in school, children did not hit each other, the teachers used to hit the children. What children need now is discipline and when your sparing the rod your spoiling the child and making him soft.

[Wisconsin9]

So lets say a kid called me ugly, and he's 15. I'm in my mid 20's. I feel super hurt, I write a note stating that this kid called me ugly, and go kill myself. Does he get charged with the murder?


Serious question, not sure where I stand on the "bullycide" topic.

Probably not. Bullying is generally considered to be something that's prolonged. Calling someone fatass one time is insulting them; calling them fatass ten times a day for a year is bullying.

[Keyboard Warriors]

So lets say a kid called me ugly, and he's 15. I'm in my mid 20's. I feel super hurt, I write a note stating that this kid called me ugly, and go kill myself. Does he get charged with the murder?


Serious question, not sure where I stand on the "bullycide" topic.

Probably not. Bullying is generally considered to be something that's prolonged. Calling someone fatass one time is insulting them; calling them fatass ten times a day for a year is bullying.

Even calling someone fatass ten times a day for the rest of their life is not and should never be equated with murder.

To me "bullyside" muddies water which isn't clear in the first place. Punishment for bullying should always be determined by the seriousness of the offence and not the reaction of the victim.

[Gallia-]

Why not?

[Wisconsin9]

Why not?

There are a lot of good reasons why not. It's just that there are also more than a few going the other way.

[West Aurelia]

I'd go for manslaughter.

Every time I see manslaughter, I see mans laughter.

And now you will too.

Damn you!

[Hyfling]

Yes, the killing of bullies should be considered murder, as that is what the term 'bullycide' implies.

Seriously though, no, harassment is a crime, stalking someone is a crime, trolling (in some countries) is a crime. But the person on the receiving end of these crimes ultimately chooses to kill themselves. I think it should at most be considered manslaughter by courts, on top of all the other crimes involved in the incident.

[Ostroeuropa]

No, it shouldn't.
Because sustained bullying campaigns are a social phenomena with many perpetrators. Blaming the person who actually kept up the harassment isn't ethically viable because it lets off all the people who let it get to that point and ignored it, or passively participated.
The people who did nothing to help acted by proxy of the bully. The main bullies may actually be the ones to do most of the active work, but being bullied is more about social isolation over the long term as a result of social power plays and occasionally physical violence.
That's why when someone commits suicide because of bullying it's a stain on the community.
Just blaming the bully absolves the people who saw it and did nothing, or saw and laughed, or occasionally joined in.
You can't cuff an entire school. And just singling out the main actors is disproportionate.
Further, it sends out the message that the fault lies with them and not with everyone at the school or place of work or whatever.

[Great Nepal]

It's same principle though.
You are demonstrating disregard for life of the victim by bullying them despite knowledge that it is having detrimental effect on physiological stability of the victim and knowledge that victims of bulling are several times more likely to commit suicide; analogous to handing suicidal person a loaded gun.

but here lies the problem, few bullies recognize they are bullying, most believe they are simply socializing normally. Now many have a rather skewed view as to what we would consider normal socialization is, they are often acting towards others as they have been treated and thus believe is normal.
bullying itself has a rather vague definition.

Yes, hence proving callous disregard is difficult to prove - you would need to prove that bullies knew exactly what they were doing whereas manslaughter is much easier - you merely prove they were reckless in their actions. Defence can raise defence that they are not responsible because they did not know what they were doing but this is ultimately matter of fact for the jury and doesn't take away from inditing the bullies for murder (and lesser included charge of manslaughter) or sustaining these indictments for trial.

[Hyfling]

No, it shouldn't.
Because sustained bullying campaigns are a social phenomena with many perpetrators. Blaming the person who actually kept up the harassment isn't ethically viable because it lets off all the people who let it get to that point and ignored it, or passively participated.
The people who did nothing to help acted by proxy of the bully. The main bullies may actually be the ones to do most of the active work, but being bullied is more about social isolation over the long term as a result of social power plays and occasionally physical violence.
That's why when someone commits suicide because of bullying it's a stain on the community.
Just blaming the bully absolves the people who saw it and did nothing, or saw and laughed, or occasionally joined in.
You can't cuff an entire school. And just singling out the main actors is disproportionate.
Further, it sends out the message that the fault lies with them and not with everyone at the school or place of work or whatever.

This too. Great points.

[Liriena]

Oh an ITG.

No it is not about being tough, I am just talking about the lack of discipline and children becoming sensitive because of that, when I was in school, children did not hit each other, the teachers used to hit the children. What children need now is discipline and when your sparing the rod your spoiling the child and making him soft.

"Remember, kids: Assault is perfectly legal and socially acceptable if it's an adult assaulting a child."

No. It just traumatized me, and stole my entire childhood from me.

Well I am not understanding how bullying traumatized you but than it was all fun,

Yeah, it was all fun... for the dozen of guys who harrassed me for a whole year while school officials did nothing... or worse than nothing.

now when I look at it, it was fun,

Now, when I look back at it, it's still horrifying.

that forced marching, forced push ups and pull ups made me stronger and I am now thanks to the forced physical training become physically and mentally stronger,

The insults, the mockery, and the pushing around made me feel worthless and helpless. Thanks to the harrassment and abuse, to this day I am still shy and insecure, and deathly afraid of contacting anybody from the school I was bullied in, even my childhood friends, with whom I grew up.

had my school seniors not done that to me, I would have been a weaker person.

Had my school seniors not done that to me, I would have been a happier person. I would not have lost the entirety of my childhood friends, or severed all ties with the otherwise fantastic school I had attended since the age of five.

If anything getting bullied helped me to handle pressure,

If anything, getting bullied made it even more difficult for me to trust people, and "taught" me that all I could do was run away, because if I tried to strike back or stand up for myself, it was me who was the problem.

I learned how to respect authority

I learned that authority couldn't be relied on.

It is pretty much like this, you need to break a horse before riding it.

I'm not a horse. I'm a person.

[Ostroeuropa]

No it is not about being tough, I am just talking about the lack of discipline and children becoming sensitive because of that, when I was in school, children did not hit each other, the teachers used to hit the children. What children need now is discipline and when your sparing the rod your spoiling the child and making him soft.

"Remember, kids: Assault is perfectly legal and socially acceptable if it's an adult assaulting a child."

Well I am not understanding how bullying traumatized you but than it was all fun,

Yeah, it was all fun... for the dozen of guys who harrassed me for a whole year while school officials did nothing... or worse than nothing.

now when I look at it, it was fun,

Now, when I look back at it, it's still horrifying.

that forced marching, forced push ups and pull ups made me stronger and I am now thanks to the forced physical training become physically and mentally stronger,

The insults, the mockery, and the pushing around made me feel worthless and helpless. Thanks to the harrassment and abuse, to this day I am still shy and insecure, and deathly afraid of contacting anybody from the school I was bullied in, even my childhood friends, with whom I grew up.

had my school seniors not done that to me, I would have been a weaker person.

Had my school seniors not done that to me, I would have been a happier person. I would not have lost the entirety of my childhood friends, or severed all ties with the otherwise fantastic school I had attended since the age of five.

If anything getting bullied helped me to handle pressure,

If anything, getting bullied made it even more difficult for me to trust people, and "taught" me that all I could do was run away, because if I tried to strike back or stand up for myself, it was me who was the problem.

I learned how to respect authority

I learned that authority couldn't be relied on.

It is pretty much like this, you need to break a horse before riding it.

I'm not a horse. I'm a person.

Sucks. Similar happened to me.
Do you agree with me that just arresting the main actor bullies and charging them with a crime doesnt actually solve any of the issues?
Because it's more to do with officials who let it go too far, and peers who ignore it or passively participate and such.
When a school bully goes so far as to drive someone to suicide, it's pointless to point at them and say "You're the cause." because really, the cause is the peer group as a whole as well as the faculty for failing to do anything about it for so long.

[Torisakia]

The bullies will be seeing jail time in the future anyway. Why convict them now?

So lets say a kid called me ugly, and he's 15. I'm in my mid 20's. I feel super hurt, I write a note stating that this kid called me ugly, and go kill myself. Does he get charged with the murder?


Serious question, not sure where I stand on the "bullycide" topic.

He'll get two hours of detention, if that.

[Britannic Realms]

Murder isn't really appropriate, but manslaughter seems like they're getting off too lightly. Perhaps there should be a crime between the two.

[Ostroeuropa]

Murder isn't really appropriate, but manslaughter seems like they're getting off too lightly. Perhaps there should be a crime between the two.

I disagree.
Mostly all they've got up to is harassment and in extreme cases assault.
The fact that we recognize the person as a victim beyond those things isn't a result of the actions of the bullies, but of the institutional and cultural failure surrounding them.
You can't blame the bullies for the teachers being shit and not doing their jobs.
You can't blame the bullies for students going along with the social hierarchy and not helping out the victims.
It's scapegoating. The people who actively encouraged and rewarded the bullies behaviour then get upset that they maybe went too far or something and decide the last action was simply abhorrent, when in reality the problem isn't any specific incident, but an ongoing campaign of social isolation, harassment, and violence, perpetrated by a community as a whole.
Until they admit that shit to themselves, theres absolutely no point in punishing the active participants, it's too little too late and is only done to assuage the conscience of people who should have been reporting the harassment when it was a harassment, but because they didnt, its now a murder.
It's a way for them to refuse to change their own behaviour.
"I didnt do anything wrong, the bullies did. For years. While I watched. And did nothing. Maybe laughed once or twice. Might have joined in on the insults once. But still, it was them!"
Which, in turn, the bullies will interperate as arbitrary and hypocritical attacks on them. (They are entirely right.) and not see anything they did as wrong because "Everyone was involved and we're just doing what everyone was."
You can't cuff an entire school unfortunately, and letting everyone off sends the wrong message too.
So just sack some teachers.
Find out which ones had cause to know, and sack them. Find which kids knew, and put them in detention and therapy.

[Manisdog]

No it is not about being tough, I am just talking about the lack of discipline and children becoming sensitive because of that, when I was in school, children did not hit each other, the teachers used to hit the children. What children need now is discipline and when your sparing the rod your spoiling the child and making him soft.

"Remember, kids: Assault is perfectly legal and socially acceptable if it's an adult assaulting a child."

Well I am not understanding how bullying traumatized you but than it was all fun,

Yeah, it was all fun... for the dozen of guys who harrassed me for a whole year while school officials did nothing... or worse than nothing.

now when I look at it, it was fun,

Now, when I look back at it, it's still horrifying.

that forced marching, forced push ups and pull ups made me stronger and I am now thanks to the forced physical training become physically and mentally stronger,

The insults, the mockery, and the pushing around made me feel worthless and helpless. Thanks to the harrassment and abuse, to this day I am still shy and insecure, and deathly afraid of contacting anybody from the school I was bullied in, even my childhood friends, with whom I grew up.

had my school seniors not done that to me, I would have been a weaker person.

Had my school seniors not done that to me, I would have been a happier person. I would not have lost the entirety of my childhood friends, or severed all ties with the otherwise fantastic school I had attended since the age of five.

If anything getting bullied helped me to handle pressure,

If anything, getting bullied made it even more difficult for me to trust people, and "taught" me that all I could do was run away, because if I tried to strike back or stand up for myself, it was me who was the problem.

I learned how to respect authority

I learned that authority couldn't be relied on.

It is pretty much like this, you need to break a horse before riding it.

I'm not a horse. I'm a person.

1)The way I think of it, it builds bonding between the kids and they would not hit each other, and generally boys will be boys, they would always be up to some mischief, Corporal punishment builds discipline and generally unpleasantness is best avoided, so all the mischief is misdirected towards finding ways how to break rules, sneak in the booze,girls etc. I think that strictness and corporal punishment redirected all the bullying to mischief. after I am looking at these posts.

2) I feel sorry for you, but you need to take it in a more positive light, I don't know what type of bullying your talking about and clearly your alive makes you stronger, so cheer up. Heck, my great grandfather was beaten with canes , and done all sorts of things to him,when he was in jail fighting for freedom but it made his will stronger and not weaker. There is a saying in Urdu and it loosely translates to "Hands that are filled with courage do not get severed with swords and those heads which are unbowed do not bow at any threat ". Much worse can happen, you need to prepared.

3) If they harassed you so much, which I don't know but giving you the benefit of doubt, you still don't have the right to be shy and insecure.

4) Happiness comes from within from small joys like taking a drag of your cigarette with tea in the cold of winter, watching kids play, nobody can really control your happiness. If you believe anybody can take your happiness away from you than you need to reconsider, The great Gautama Buddha once said Nobody can save you except yourselves,We must all walk the path of pain ( loose translation)

5) You don't have to trust people, and if anything is as remotely as bad as your saying than your job is to outlive and not find a solution.

6) I don't know how you used authority, so I cannot comment.
5)