Are people growing bored of democracy ?

[New Stinkonia]

It's more than being about two parties controlling politics. It's about money controlling both parties. Let's not kid ourselves as to why democracy is rigged.

Duh. But the two Party system makes it much easier for that.

But you're putting the cart before the horse. It's money that cements the 2 party system, and you're not going to change that without eliminating the equation of money in politics. Never, ever will there be a viable 3rd party while the two parties in power are controlled by wealthy interests. You can protest, you can occupy, you can cry, you can insult each other's mothers and ideologies, you can complain very eloquently or you can throw a tantrum til your face turns blue but the grip of money will not budge an inch. It will only grow stronger.

[Olerand]

Yeah. Whenever somebody tells me that the people chose their government officials, I say "no they didn't, most of the electorate voted for nobody, but they didn't put him in, the fascists."

Meh, in some countries.

For me any election that has below a 50% turnout rate is flat out illegitimate; and the ideal rates for me would be 75% and over.

So America's 59~60% passes, but just so. Back in the 90s, when turnout was 49%, was truly a dark time for American democracy.

[Kovotojas]

Bored is the wrong words.
Tired.

---

I'm no fan of dictatorship, I'd live under a moralistic conservative Christian democracy, but hell, Human nature would corrupt that. I'd live under a benevolent autocrat that'd keep us united, but with no political bickering. Still, it wouldn't work. That's why I turned to fascism. (not Nazism, they are different.)

[Martean]

No, at least not in my country, indeed, people are getting more and mote involved in politics and turnout rates are expected to hit an all-time high in the next general election.

So I guess it's more a problem of the two-party american system than democracy itself

[Shofercia]

After a long discussion about representative democracy with my mother, I have decided to create this thread in order to hear people answer this one question: Are people growing bored and tired of representative democracy, tired of choosing the same damn parties that will lie and screw them over and over ?

I say yes.

I say that the reason behind declining voter participation is because the voters are growing bored and/or tired of choosing the lesser of two evils instead of the best. As my mother said...

"It's no longer a question choosing the best party, but choosing the least terrible."

Besides, parties that affiliate themselves to their ideologies will always end up being your usual everyday government: Voting laws that no one gives a damn about, taxes, blablabla...

My fellow NSGers, what do YOU think ?

I think you stated the reason for it: "It's no longer a question choosing the best party, but choosing the least terrible."

When I get to vote for two good candidates, I'm certainly excited about democracy. But if it's a vote between Bush & Kerry...

Tell me when has it been different? When has the electorate agreed with a party's policy in its entirety? When have we had perfect candidates that we all love universally?

You don't need to agree with a candidate 100% to think that he's a good candidate. Imagine if FDR lived and ran against Ike. That would certainly be an exciting election.

Dissatisfied and disenchanted, not bored. Also not necessarily with democracy in general, but more in the established political order.

This too ^

Yes they are bored, they wish for me to govern them.

From this moment forth I shall be the supreme leader of the world all other forms of government are abolished.

If you ran against Bush and Kerry, I'd probably vote for you

I suppose a dose of totalitarianism would definitely make people realize that what they have is a lot better than a government that doesn't allow them to express displeasure at policies and tries fundamentally to make sure that their specific clique of people remains entrenched and enriched.

If you people think that the current system is broken or you are "disillusioned", go do something about it. Don't sit here and bitch about it. It just makes you look spoiled.

How? In California, we can act through the proposition system. However, we have no real senate access. Because of the power of incumbency that California's Senators wield, there's jack shit that we can do, until one of them deigns to retire. Now imagine a state without the prop system. What would you suggest they do?

[Ostroeuropa]

I think we're sick of politicians.
We want ideologues and philosophers.
Part of that is scary.

The politicians rely on us bugging out when we realize how fucking nuts most of the people with ideas out there actually are on a number of issues statistically. (As in, expecting any individual who actually believes in shit to have any kind of morality that most people will agree with on all issues is ridiculous.)
The politicians upset everyone, but not anyone to the extent that they'll go crazy and bomb buildings or start a civil war or some shit over how crap they are.
They're a compromise, they just say what they need to to get elected. Based on polling data and after the fact rationalizations. They don't actually have much of a coherent ideology.
These are the people who figured out how to consistently win the system.
We've got sick of them, but the alternative is letting someone who actually believes in their own kool aid run the show.
Think about how all of THOSE fuckers turned out.
Sure they might have some good ideas, but inevitably, one or two fucking terrible ones they absolutely refuse to abandon.
Remember, in the UK, about of a third of them probably want a permanent thatcherite government.
Another third basically wants socialism.
Both of those camps would rather vote in useless fucks than let the other side win.

[Nerotysia]

Duh. But the two Party system makes it much easier for that.

But you're putting the cart before the horse. It's money that cements the 2 party system, and you're not going to change that without eliminating the equation of money in politics. Never, ever will there be a viable 3rd party while the two parties in power are controlled by wealthy interests. You can protest, you can occupy, you can cry, you can insult each other's mothers and ideologies, you can complain very eloquently or you can throw a tantrum til your face turns blue but the grip of money will not budge an inch. It will only grow stronger.

Certainly moneyed interests hold a lot of power in the US democracy, and certainly this is harmful and probably reinforces the two-party dominance, but money is not the root of the problem. The entire first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all voting method of the US is inane and archaic, and is the core of the problems in American democracy. The two-party system is merely a symptom of this problem, and wealthy interests would not be so powerful if this core problem were solved.

Beyond that, there is the absurdly stupid electoral college. With such idiotic practices, it's no wonder people have grown "tired" of democracy. Though to be fair I don't think it's a uniquely modern problem.

[Planita]

I would agree with the others, its disillusionment and disappointment. I would also agree with your mother's quote as I had said a similar quote before.

[Syndicapolis]

I don't think this disenchantment has anything to do with the two-party or first-past-the-post system, or even representative democracy, even though I totally oppose all of those things. There's no "power to the people" sentiment in society - if anything, I feel like everyone is more under false consciousness than ever. People have just generally stopped giving a shit about politics because it's all so damn boring. The parties all seem the same and there don't seem to be any pressing problems that need to be faced. In Britain politics is more than ever a preserve of the rich and the intelligentsia - I'm more politically involved than anyone I know, and that's because I'm a radical.

No, at least not in my country, indeed, people are getting more and mote involved in politics and turnout rates are expected to hit an all-time high in the next general election.

So I guess it's more a problem of the two-party american system than democracy itself

I'm no expert on Spanish politics, but I think the political scene in Spain is more turbulent and exciting than in the UK or USA, what with demands for Catalan and Basque independence referenda, fierce opposition to governmental economic policy and, from what I've heard, some kind of what I call a "red shift" (which of course means a shift to the left.)

Or all my news is from biased leftist sources, which is very likely to be true.

[Socialist Czechia]

I am just tired from people who thinks there is only one good kind of democracy.

Parliamentary democracy with two Houses is not only possible nor best version of it.

[Northwest Slobovia]

After a long discussion about representative democracy with my mother, I have decided to create this thread in order to hear people answer this one question: Are people growing bored and tired of representative democracy, tired of choosing the same damn parties that will lie and screw them over and over ?

I say yes.

I say that the reason behind declining voter participation is because the voters are growing bored and/or tired of choosing the lesser of two evils instead of the best.

Let's check that claim, shall we:

Historical data:



Recent data:


If you're gonna talk about a clear decline, you have to go back more than a century. Otherwise, it looks like midterm turn-out is in a very slow decline, and Presidental turn-out is holding steady over the last 100+ years.

<Insert bogus Socrates quote about how the previous generations where stronger, wiser, and better looking here.>

[Socialist Czechia]

There should be compulsory voting, though, because it's every citizen's duty to support it's society at least to get their asses to poll box once per few years.

Same like you have no option to decide whether you want pay taxes or not, why should you have an option to totally ignore who rules the state?

[Nerotysia]

There should be compulsory voting, thoug[list=][/list]h, because it's every citizen's duty to support it's society at least to get their asses to poll box once per few years.

Same like you have no option to decide whether you want pay taxes or not, why should you have an option to totally ignore who rules the state?

That's a terrible, terrible idea. We should not be forcing people who don't care to vote for the leaders of our country.

[Socialist Czechia]

There should be compulsory voting, thoug[list=][/list]h, because it's every citizen's duty to support it's society at least to get their asses to poll box once per few years.

Same like you have no option to decide whether you want pay taxes or not, why should you have an option to totally ignore who rules the state?

That's a terrible, terrible idea. We should not be forcing people who don't care to vote for the leaders of our country.

It's for the greater good. More people, more legitimacy. You can guess what can happen if just older people votes.

as i said, same you must care about state to pay taxes, even if you disagree, you must care about democratic process. it's not some silly option you can ignore, it's both privilege and duty of every citizen.

[Norstal]

But you're putting the cart before the horse. It's money that cements the 2 party system, and you're not going to change that without eliminating the equation of money in politics. Never, ever will there be a viable 3rd party while the two parties in power are controlled by wealthy interests. You can protest, you can occupy, you can cry, you can insult each other's mothers and ideologies, you can complain very eloquently or you can throw a tantrum til your face turns blue but the grip of money will not budge an inch. It will only grow stronger.

Certainly moneyed interests hold a lot of power in the US democracy, and certainly this is harmful and probably reinforces the two-party dominance, but money is not the root of the problem. The entire first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all voting method of the US is inane and archaic, and is the core of the problems in American democracy. The two-party system is merely a symptom of this problem, and wealthy interests would not be so powerful if this core problem were solved.

Beyond that, there is the absurdly stupid electoral college. With such idiotic practices, it's no wonder people have grown "tired" of democracy. Though to be fair I don't think it's a uniquely modern problem.

What is the difference between two-party system and a coalition of two sides with multiple parties like in proportional voting? Same shit, different day. For example, sure the Communists now have a party of its own, but if they want to get anything done they'd have to work with the other leftist parties. And then the leftist coalition needs to work with the rightist coalition to get anything done...and then it's the same shit again cause they're all the same.

[Bulgar Rouge]

Bored is the wrong word, disillusioned fits better. People feel that their vote makes no difference.

^This, and it is so. Considering what we've gone through here, my belief in any kind of representative democracy is beyond repair.

[Nestre]

I think that yes, people are feeling disillusioned with the current system, at least in the U.S. I'm concerned by people's deliberate rejection of the political process. I personally find people's decision not to be involved in government very unnerving.

[Socialist Czechia]

Was it ok, though, when Germans democratically voted for National Socialists?

More or less, Nazi Regime was chosen by democracy and Germans approved their policies.

Believe it or not, even during 1945, there was serious belief amongst Allies, that Germans would still vote Nazi majority, if allowed.

[Bulgar Rouge]

I think that yes, people are feeling disillusioned with the current system, at least in the U.S. I'm concerned by people's deliberate rejection of the political process. I personally find people's decision not to be involved in government very unnerving.

But, after all, should we blame people for moving away from politics ? I used to be very politically active, I've taken part in a number of initiatives but when you realise you're a minority at some point and that the majority will not change or listen, why bother ?

[Costa Fierro]

What is the difference between two-party system and a coalition of two sides with multiple parties like in proportional voting? Same shit, different day. For example, sure the Communists now have a party of its own, but if they want to get anything done they'd have to work with the other leftist parties. And then the leftist coalition needs to work with the rightist coalition to get anything done...and then it's the same shit again cause they're all the same.

Because that's how the representational system works in a multi-party legislature. What happens is that a leftist party forms a coalition with a collection of other parties and another larger party in order to acquire a majority in the legislature. Having a majority means that you don't have to work with the opposition in order to get anything done.

Seriously people, cut the disillusioned hipster ideologue bullshit please. It's pathetic.

[Pope Joan]

I see about as much real democracy in the USA these days as I see a "market driven economy".

In other words, not much.

Nobody wants to tell us kids that the Santa Claus of participatory democracy was just a nice story to keep us quiet.

[Norstal]

What is the difference between two-party system and a coalition of two sides with multiple parties like in proportional voting? Same shit, different day. For example, sure the Communists now have a party of its own, but if they want to get anything done they'd have to work with the other leftist parties. And then the leftist coalition needs to work with the rightist coalition to get anything done...and then it's the same shit again cause they're all the same.

Because that's how the representational system works in a multi-party legislature. What happens is that a leftist party forms a coalition with a collection of other parties and another larger party in order to acquire a majority in the legislature. Having a majority means that you don't have to work with the opposition in order to get anything done.

Seriously people, cut the disillusioned hipster ideologue bullshit please. It's pathetic.

...How am I being a hipster? No, seriously, how the fuck is an American who wants to keep their own systems in place, being a hipster? If you're calling on the other guy for being a hipster for not understanding the problems of proportional voting, that makes sense and you can just ignore the rest of my post.

Majority is the problem. There was no majority in Congress until next year where the Republicans will take control of both senate and house. We couldn't have shit done because there was no one party that have control of both houses. The other point is, what's the difference between a right-wing coalition and the Republican party when the Republican party is already composed of multiple right-wing factions already? If these factions get their own party and have to form coalition anyways to get anything done...what the fuck is the point?

[Flyover]

Wouldn't that be getting bored with the two parties rather than Democracy in general?

I mean, there's a difference between:
"I don't like the two main parties." and "Democracy is super lame."

So, I'd say that people are probably not bored with democracy, in general.
I'm sure that some people are, but those people are hopefully never going to be the majority.

[Socialist Czechia]

Funny assumption that US is a democracy at all

[United Marxist Nations]

That's a terrible, terrible idea. We should not be forcing people who don't care to vote for the leaders of our country.

It's for the greater good. More people, more legitimacy. You can guess what can happen if just older people votes.

as i said, same you must care about state to pay taxes, even if you disagree, you must care about democratic process. it's not some silly option you can ignore, it's both privilege and duty of every citizen.

If we don't have anyone to vote for, don't make us vote. It's not democratic to force people to vote for people they don't want to vote for.