US/Cuba to Begin Talks

[Yumyumsuppertime]

President Obama has thrown Raúl Castro a steak not a trojan horse:

(Image)(Image)

That adds literally nothing to the conversation. Thank you.

[Greater Miami Shores]

President Obama has thrown Raúl Castro a steak not a trojan horse:

(Image)(Image)

That adds literally nothing to the conversation. Thank you.

That is the point. Appeasement and support in the form of Appeasement. What Canada and the EU nations are doing and have been doing for years. They are helping them stay in power. Your welcome.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

That adds literally nothing to the conversation. Thank you.

That is the point. Appeasement and support in the form of Appeasement. What Canada and the EU nations are doing and have been doing for years. They are helping them stay in power. Your welcome.

It's not appeasement. The embargo has had literally no desired effect, and, as I have repeatedly stated to no contrary response from you, it has actually had the opposite effect by allowing Castro to blame the United States rather than his own failures as a leader for whatever economic problems arise. It would be appeasement if we were giving him something that he would need to cement his power, or increase his influence. Without meaning to, though, that's what we've been doing already for decades. Let him be just another schmuck who we trade with, and he's less likely to come across as the cool anti-American icon he's been to Latin America (and more than a few American college students) for over half a century.

Seriously, answer me these two questions:

First, what do you believe the outcome of lifting the embargo would be?

Second, what would be the outcome of keeping it in place?

You'll be graded on honesty and realism.

[Greater Miami Shores]

I know I keep repeating myself ove and over again in similar ways. I was thinking of directly answering your questions, but I would just be repeating myself over and over again. I have made my point that trade, tourists, money $, loans and credits help the Castro brothers stay in power. That is what the Castro brothers want from Canada, the EU nations and the USA. That is what they want and get from Venezuela. Including cheap Venezuelan oil. Does anyone here think Raúl Castro is doing this to destroy his grip on power?

What the Cuban American community against what President Obama has done wants is for the western style democratic nations to support an embargo similar to the one on South Africa and stop helping and excusing the Castro brothers.

The claim that the embargo is the cause of Cuba's economic problems might have been believed during the Soviet Union's time, but not now. That is the excuse of Castro supporters and excusers the world over.

Well, I guess I have answerd your questions, but you will probably not be satisfied with my answers.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I know I keep repeating myself ove and over again in similar ways. I was thinking of directly answering your questions, but I would just be repeating myself over and over again. I have made my point that trade, tourists, money $, loans and credits help the Castro brothers stay in power. That is what the Castro brothers want from Canada, the EU nations and the USA. That is what they want and get from Venezuela. Including cheap Venezuelan oil. Does anyone here think Raúl Castro is doing this to destroy his grip on power?

What the Cuban American community against what President Obama has done wants is for the western style democratic nations to support an embargo similar to the one on South Africa and stop helping and excusing the Castro brothers.

The claim that the embargo is the cause of Cuba's economic problems might have been believed during the Soviet Union's time, but not now. That is the excuse of Castro supporters and excusers the world over.

Well, I guess I have answerd your questions, but you will probably not be satisfied with my answers.

If we're the only ones doing it, then it's ineffective, and another approach is necessary. Can you at least see that?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I know I keep repeating myself ove and over again in similar ways. I was thinking of directly answering your questions, but I would just be repeating myself over and over again. I have made my point that trade, tourists, money $, loans and credits help the Castro brothers stay in power. That is what the Castro brothers want from Canada, the EU nations and the USA. That is what they want and get from Venezuela. Including cheap Venezuelan oil. Does anyone here think Raúl Castro is doing this to destroy his grip on power?

What the Cuban American community against what President Obama has done wants is for the western style democratic nations to support an embargo similar to the one on South Africa and stop helping and excusing the Castro brothers.

The claim that the embargo is the cause of Cuba's economic problems might have been believed during the Soviet Union's time, but not now. That is the excuse of Castro supporters and excusers the world over.

Well, I guess I have answerd your questions, but you will probably not be satisfied with my answers.

If we're the only ones doing it, then it's ineffective, and another approach is necessary. Can you at least see that?

I am guessing the answer is no.

My problem is that there's many upon many reasons why lifting the embargo is a good idea. Shit, even Cuban-Americans smuggle shit back to Cuba and they make ridiculous amounts of money. I know Miami Shores means well, but some of these Cubans here who oppose the embargo do it for financial reasons, so fuck them.

[Greater Miami Shores]

I know I keep repeating myself ove and over again in similar ways. I was thinking of directly answering your questions, but I would just be repeating myself over and over again. I have made my point that trade, tourists, money $, loans and credits help the Castro brothers stay in power. That is what the Castro brothers want from Canada, the EU nations and the USA. That is what they want and get from Venezuela. Including cheap Venezuelan oil. Does anyone here think Raúl Castro is doing this to destroy his grip on power?

What the Cuban American community against what President Obama has done wants is for the western style democratic nations to support an embargo similar to the one on South Africa and stop helping and excusing the Castro brothers.

The claim that the embargo is the cause of Cuba's economic problems might have been believed during the Soviet Union's time, but not now. That is the excuse of Castro supporters and excusers the world over.

Well, I guess I have answerd your questions, but you will probably not be satisfied with my answers.

If we're the only ones doing it, then it's ineffective, and another approach is necessary. Can you at least see that?

To be honest with you, yes. But thier is always a but. The new approach is the same approach as Canada and the EU nations are doing, that dosent work. Dam if we dont, and damed if we do. If Raúl Castro wants relations with the USA so bad, it should be based on conditions. The problem is, Raúl Castro can promise the USA anything the way he promises the EU nations and EU government and not keep those promises. While receiving all that economic and political support. Heck he just cancelled a meeting over human rights with the EU, where the EU is going to ask him for real political and economic changes, no wonder. As I stated as long as the CDRs in Cuba exsist thier will be no real changes you can believe in from the Cuban government. Their I go again repeating myself in similar ways.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

If we're the only ones doing it, then it's ineffective, and another approach is necessary. Can you at least see that?

To be honest with you, yes. But thier is always a but. The new approach is the same approach as Canada and the EU nations are doing, that dosent work. Dam if we dont, and damed if we do. If Raúl Castro wants relations with the USA so bad, it should be based on conditions. The problem is, Raúl Castro can promise the USA anything the way he promises the EU nations and EU government and not keep those promises. While receiving all that economic and political support. Heck he just cancelled a meeting over human rights with the EU, where the EU is going to ask him for real political and economic changes, no wonder. As I stated as long as the CDRs in Cuba exsist thier will be no real changes you can believe in from the Cuban government. Their I go again repeating myself in similar ways.

Yeah, we're at an impasse, even if it's what seems to be a mutually respectful one.

[Parti Ouvrier]

If we're the only ones doing it, then it's ineffective, and another approach is necessary. Can you at least see that?

To be honest with you, yes. But thier is always a but. The new approach is the same approach as Canada and the EU nations are doing, that dosent work. Dam if we dont, and damed if we do. If Raúl Castro wants relations with the USA so bad, it should be based on conditions. The problem is, Raúl Castro can promise the USA anything the way he promises the EU nations and EU government and not keep those promises. While receiving all that economic and political support. Heck he just cancelled a meeting over human rights with the EU, where the EU is going to ask him for real political and economic changes, no wonder. As I stated as long as the CDRs in Cuba exsist thier will be no real changes you can believe in from the Cuban government. Their I go again repeating myself in similar ways.

You're overlooking the fact that the US is looking to help corporations make profit in Cuba, eg, expansion of broadband internet markets. Oh, and perhaps a US embassy with CIA operatives.

[Parti Ouvrier]

That adds literally nothing to the conversation. Thank you.

That is the point. Appeasement and support in the form of Appeasement. What Canada and the EU nations are doing and have been doing for years. They are helping them stay in power. Your welcome.

Realpolitik.

[Greater Miami Shores]

To be honest with you, yes. But thier is always a but. The new approach is the same approach as Canada and the EU nations are doing, that dosent work. Dam if we dont, and damed if we do. If Raúl Castro wants relations with the USA so bad, it should be based on conditions. The problem is, Raúl Castro can promise the USA anything the way he promises the EU nations and EU government and not keep those promises. While receiving all that economic and political support. Heck he just cancelled a meeting over human rights with the EU, where the EU is going to ask him for real political and economic changes, no wonder. As I stated as long as the CDRs in Cuba exsist thier will be no real changes you can believe in from the Cuban government. Their I go again repeating myself in similar ways.

Yeah, we're at an impasse, even if it's what seems to be a mutually respectful one.

Thank you Yumyyumsuppertime for your comment. Even if we dont agree, Thank you Soldati senza confini for your comment, I know Miami Shores means well.

[Greater Miami Shores]

I remember once, the EU government was threatening Cuba with (petty) EU sanctions, at the same time, the next day a British Foreing Minister arrived in Cuba to strenghten economic and political relations with the Cuban government, lol. I remember once, a British citizen was in prison or being detained in Cuba, the British government threatened to break relations with the Cuban government, the Cuban government gave in and released the British citizen. I wish I could provide links to my claims, but it was many years ago, it would be hard to find those links.

[L Ron Cupboard]

I remember once, the EU government was threatening Cuba with (petty) EU sanctions, at the same time, the next day a British Foreing Minister arrived in Cuba to strenghten economic and political relations with the Cuban government, lol. I remember once, a British citizen was in prison or being detained in Cuba, the British government threatened to break relations with the Cuban government, the Cuban government gave in and released the British citizen. I wish I could provide links to my claims, but it was many years ago, it would be hard to find those links.

I remember when Fidel Castro turned an owl into a giant pumpkin, and gave little girls everywhere a pony for Christmas. I wish I could provide links to my claims, but it was many years ago, it would be hard to find those links.

[Murkwood]

Even if you support the embargo or not, this is a bad deal. We should have gotten more out of it.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Even if you support the embargo or not, this is a bad deal. We should have gotten more out of it.

Realistically, what do you think that we could have gotten?

[Murkwood]

Even if you support the embargo or not, this is a bad deal. We should have gotten more out of it.

Realistically, what do you think that we could have gotten?

More privatizations, a pathway to democracy, the opening of independent news sources... Hell, even for the Castros and their ilk to divest from the Cuban tourist industry. We got nothing.

[Greater Miami Shores]

I remember once, the EU government was threatening Cuba with (petty) EU sanctions, at the same time, the next day a British Foreing Minister arrived in Cuba to strenghten economic and political relations with the Cuban government, lol. I remember once, a British citizen was in prison or being detained in Cuba, the British government threatened to break relations with the Cuban government, the Cuban government gave in and released the British citizen. I wish I could provide links to my claims, but it was many years ago, it would be hard to find those links.

I remember when Fidel Castro turned an owl into a giant pumpkin, and gave little girls everywhere a pony for Christmas. I wish I could provide links to my claims, but it was many years ago, it would be hard to find those links.

Lol good one. Im talking about the EU Common Position on Cuba, which was and is a joke. Implemented, suspended, revised, ect, ect, ect. The claim of the British citizen detained by the Cuban government is the hardest one of my claims to find a link too. Not because im making it up, I really read about this incident in the news. I don't think it was a made up article by anti Castro Cuban Americans. It was many years ago, as I state, I wish I could find the link to my claim.

[Parti Ouvrier]

Even if you support the embargo or not, this is a bad deal. We should have gotten more out of it.

I'm sure the Chamber of Commerce will be happy,(see AP article) besides which Cuban state/bureaucratic 'socialism' has been disintegrating/dying anyway and with this move will disintegrate further. Cuban 'socialism' is virtually dead anyway.

'Even though the GOP will control both the Senate and House come Jan. 6, Republicans will face pressure from businesses and the farm industry — eyeing opportunities for commerce in Cuba — not to stand in the way of expanded ties.

The Chamber of Commerce spent heavily in the midterm elections, investing $35 million to elect business-minded, predominantly Republican lawmakers. Its president, Thomas J. Donohue, said Wednesday that Obama's actions "will go a long way in allowing opportunities for free enterprise to flourish."
http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/3d281c1 ... dd2b347620

[Parti Ouvrier]

Realistically, what do you think that we could have gotten?

More privatizations, a pathway to democracy, the opening of independent news sources... Hell, even for the Castros and their ilk to divest from the Cuban tourist industry. We got nothing.

Personally, I think it should be for the Cubans to decide about their pathway to democracy. Anyway, what makes you think US NGO's aren't planning to facilitate civil society groups to get the things you mentioned? I don't agree with it, but I'm sure the NED could easily implement things like protest groups in Cuba for example.

[Katganistan]

yeah, you'd think it'd be that easy, wouldn't you? It should be. I really wish it was.
You know how much a can of stateside vanilla or cherry coke sells for? four bucks each. Four god damn bucks. It's legit cheaper to the shit from the fucking UK. Shit's like $1.50 a can.
still, where do you find it over there? As in, how common is it? I ain't never been to Wisconsin.

Dude, just drive across the border and stock up if you like vanilla Coke. $4 a can is ridiculous.

Not true. In NYC, you get it for the same $1 - $1.25 as other sodas.

[New Werpland]

Realistically, what do you think that we could have gotten?

More privatizations, a pathway to democracy, the opening of independent news sources... Hell, even for the Castros and their ilk to divest from the Cuban tourist industry. We got nothing.

If communism is so inefficient and shitty as you say, the Cubans will privatize when they get the chance to do so themselves. Forcing them to privatize will make us look like the douchey neo-colonialist empire, leftists constantly portray the U.S as.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Realistically, what do you think that we could have gotten?

More privatizations, a pathway to democracy, the opening of independent news sources... Hell, even for the Castros and their ilk to divest from the Cuban tourist industry. We got nothing.

Seriously?

I mean, they've personally survived quite well for over half of a century now without anything like that, and have managed to blame the sufferings of the Cuban people on us in the process. What exactly are we offering as a carrot, here?

[Murkwood]

More privatizations, a pathway to democracy, the opening of independent news sources... Hell, even for the Castros and their ilk to divest from the Cuban tourist industry. We got nothing.

Seriously?

I mean, they've personally survived quite well for over half of a century now without anything like that, and have managed to blame the sufferings of the Cuban people on us in the process. What exactly are we offering as a carrot, here?

We released three spies, one of whom is a convicted murderer.

What did we get? 53 political prisoners released. But you know what? If those 53 go out tomorrow and start calling for an end to the Castro regime, they are going right back in jail.

[Parti Ouvrier]

More privatizations, a pathway to democracy, the opening of independent news sources... Hell, even for the Castros and their ilk to divest from the Cuban tourist industry. We got nothing.

If communism is so inefficient and shitty as you say, the Cubans will privatize when they get the chance to do so themselves. Forcing them to privatize will make us look like the douchey neo-colonialist empire, leftists constantly portray the U.S as.

Not to mention anti-democratic, I guess the irony will be lost on Murkwood. Just a quibble, Cuba isn't communist.

[Grim Shadow]

So does any one know if they just lifted it because it didn't make since in the first place or if there's a hidden motive.