US/Cuba to Begin Talks

[Eastern Equestria]

I don't disagree. From an Americentric viewpoint it's undoubtedly a win-win. But from the perspective of Cubans and Cuban-Americans (who needless to say have vested interest in the matter), the improvement that these open relations would bring to the oppressive political environment that Cubans continue to be subjected to seem incremental at best. And of course you can't expect us to be very happy about the fact that this would also benefit the hated Castro regime. Yes, the embargo is useless, but nullyfying it will more than likely just mean more of the same for the Cuban populace. Hence why we're not exactly enthusiastic about this development.

Understood. Does what you're seeing "on the ground", so to speak, contradict the polling that shows increasing acceptance of normalizing relations among the Cuban-American populace?

When did I dispute that most Cuban-Americans are in favor of lifting the embargo?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Understood. Does what you're seeing "on the ground", so to speak, contradict the polling that shows increasing acceptance of normalizing relations among the Cuban-American populace?

When did I dispute that most Cuban-Americans are in favor of lifting the embargo?

I didn't say that you did. I should have been more clear: that was an actual request for information, not a backhanded way of disputing any assertion on your part, especially one that you did not make.

[Katganistan]

Seriously about time. PAST time.

[New Chalcedon]

I'm rather baffled at the reaction of the Cuban expat community in places like Puerto Rico, Mexico and Miami.

It's a big thing. After 50+ years, this embargo was just a fossil. It's good to see a dialogue been opened between the US and Cuba to possibly lift it.

The Cuban expat community is largely made up of people who lost a lot, some everything, when the communists came to power. They have a vested interest in seeing the Castro regime thrown down and something that recognizes their rights to property held prior to the Castros installed in its place.

Much of which, under the Batista regime, was politically apportioned out to the regime's lickspittles....but it was their stuff, goshdangit! Rightly stolen by the military dictator and given to them!

[Eastern Equestria]

When did I dispute that most Cuban-Americans are in favor of lifting the embargo?

I didn't say that you did. I should have been more clear: that was an actual request for information, not a backhanded way of disputing any assertion on your part, especially one that you did not make.

I see. Personally I'm in favor of lifting the embargo, but don't view that as a major step forward for Cuban society. The Cuban expats that I know, and these are mostly ones I'm related to, are largely against it for the reasons I've mentioned. Their disapproval stems from a very personal hatred and distrust for the Castro regime that's linked to having experienced it firsthand, and in some cases from having their livelihoods robbed from them as a result of Castro's revolution. Thus resulting in them having to emigrate to the United States out of necessity (when they would have rather stayed in Cuba had the circumstances not forced them to leave). I believe I've mentioned in these forums before that I'm related to a one-time member of El Movimiento 26 de Julio. He was among the original members of Castro's revolution, and was imprisoned for more than a decade after defecting from it once he'd realized that Castro was not planning on restoring democracy in Cuba as he'd promised. So obviously there's very strong sentiment in my family against the Cuban government and anything that would benefit it. But of course they don't speak for everyone, and I could very much see how most Cuban-Americans would be in favor of normalized relations between the U.S. and Cuba as a way to become closer with their families still living on the island.

[Political Wisdom]

Call me cynical, but I think the real reason for the normalizing of relations with Cuba is because of the worsening relationship with Russia. If the US enters into a trade partnership with Cuba, then Russia will not be able to cozy up to the Castro brothers again and threaten America with a repeat of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[Eastern Equestria]

The Cuban expat community is largely made up of people who lost a lot, some everything, when the communists came to power. They have a vested interest in seeing the Castro regime thrown down and something that recognizes their rights to property held prior to the Castros installed in its place.

Much of which, under the Batista regime, was politically apportioned out to the regime's lickspittles....but it was their stuff, goshdangit! Rightly stolen by the military dictator and given to them!

You mean the "elites" which Batista cozied up to after grabbing power? They represent a small minority of the Cuban expat community.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

I want it to end so we can get cheap sugar again, and stop using HFCS in Coca Cola!

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I didn't say that you did. I should have been more clear: that was an actual request for information, not a backhanded way of disputing any assertion on your part, especially one that you did not make.

I see. Personally I'm in favor of lifting the embargo, but don't view that as a major step forward for Cuban society. The Cuban expats that I know, and these are mostly ones I'm related to, are largely against it for the reasons I've mentioned. Their disapproval stems from a very personal hatred and distrust for the Castro regime that's linked to having experienced it firsthand, and in some cases from having their livelihoods robbed from them as a result of Castro's revolution. Thus resulting in them having to emigrate to the United States out of necessity (when they would have rather stayed in Cuba had the circumstances not forced them to leave). I believe I've mentioned in these forums before that I'm related to a one-time member of El Movimiento 26 de Julio. He was among the original members of Castro's revolution, and was imprisoned for more than a decade after defecting from it once he'd realized that Castro was not planning on restoring democracy in Cuba as he'd promised. So obviously there's very strong sentiment in my family against the Cuban government and anything that would benefit it. But of course they don't speak for everyone, and I could very much see how most Cuban-Americans would be in favor of normalized relations between the U.S. and Cuba as a way to become closer with their families still living on the island.

I suspect that if I'd lived a comfortable life under Batista, and had everything taken from me by gun-toting revolutionaries, I might hold a grudge as well. The same if I'd originally been pro-Castro, and had felt betrayed by his non-democratic actions following the revolution.

Anyway, thank you for the information. While "data" may not be the plural of "anecdote", anecdotes can often provide insight in a way that data cannot.

[Malavya]

The US shouldn't talk with leftist nation's.

[Wisconsin9]

The US shouldn't talk with leftist nation's.

Your opinion has been noted, given all due consideration, and subsequently disregarded, on the grounds that the world does not work the way you seem to think it does.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The US shouldn't talk with leftist nation's.

The obvious joke here is "leftist nation's what?", but rather than make petty jibes, I'll simply ask you if you understand what the purpose of diplomacy is.

[Eastern Equestria]

I see. Personally I'm in favor of lifting the embargo, but don't view that as a major step forward for Cuban society. The Cuban expats that I know, and these are mostly ones I'm related to, are largely against it for the reasons I've mentioned. Their disapproval stems from a very personal hatred and distrust for the Castro regime that's linked to having experienced it firsthand, and in some cases from having their livelihoods robbed from them as a result of Castro's revolution. Thus resulting in them having to emigrate to the United States out of necessity (when they would have rather stayed in Cuba had the circumstances not forced them to leave). I believe I've mentioned in these forums before that I'm related to a one-time member of El Movimiento 26 de Julio. He was among the original members of Castro's revolution, and was imprisoned for more than a decade after defecting from it once he'd realized that Castro was not planning on restoring democracy in Cuba as he'd promised. So obviously there's very strong sentiment in my family against the Cuban government and anything that would benefit it. But of course they don't speak for everyone, and I could very much see how most Cuban Americans would be in favor of normalized relations between the U.S. and Cuba as a way to become closer with their families still living on the island.

I suspect that if I'd lived a comfortable life under Batista

You say that as if they supported Batista's regime any more than they support Castro's. As a matter of fact, the grand majority of Cubans didn't.

Between 1952 and 1958, Cubans from all walks of life -- students, businessmen, mothers, politicians -- united in opposition against Batista. Author Carlos Alberto Montaner describes the mood: "the talk was about democracy, freedom and respect for human rights; the... objective was to restore the rule of law that had been swept aside by Batista."

Besides, in the case of my family they were either middle class or from farming communities. But they had their properties seized just the same as the fat cats that Batista personally indulged.

You're very welcome for the information by the way, as anecdotal as it might be.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I want it to end so we can get cheap sugar again, and stop using HFCS in Coca Cola!

OMG! I hadn't even thought of that! We need trade with Cuba NOW!!!

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

I want it to end so we can get cheap sugar again, and stop using HFCS in Coca Cola!

OMG! I hadn't even thought of that! We need trade with Cuba NOW!!!

W00t!

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I suspect that if I'd lived a comfortable life under Batista

You say that as if they supported Batista's regime any more than they support Castro's. As a matter of fact, the grand majority of Cubans didn't.

Between 1952 and 1958, Cubans from all walks of life -- students, businessmen, mothers, politicians -- united in opposition against Batista. Author Carlos Alberto Montaner describes the mood: "the talk was about democracy, freedom and respect for human rights; the... objective was to restore the rule of law that had been swept aside by Batista."

Besides, in the case of my family they were either middle class or from farming communities. But they had their properties seized just the same as the fat cats that Batista personally indulged.

You're very welcome for the information by the way, as anecdotal as it might be.

I'm aware that Batista was largely unpopular. Popular leaders don't generally face successful revolutions. My point, as badly made as it may have been, was that I understand that there are many reasons that Cuban Americans might hold grudges against Castro. That was one. I addressed your comments regarding your relative in the part of my comment that you left out of the quote.

[Wisconsin9]

I want it to end so we can get cheap sugar again, and stop using HFCS in Coca Cola!

OMG! I hadn't even thought of that! We need trade with Cuba NOW!!!

I can think of like six places in town where I can get Coke with real sugar, and that's just off the top of my head. Hell, there are like three or four in walking distance.

[Eastern Equestria]

You say that as if they supported Batista's regime any more than they support Castro's. As a matter of fact, the grand majority of Cubans didn't.

Between 1952 and 1958, Cubans from all walks of life -- students, businessmen, mothers, politicians -- united in opposition against Batista. Author Carlos Alberto Montaner describes the mood: "the talk was about democracy, freedom and respect for human rights; the... objective was to restore the rule of law that had been swept aside by Batista."

Besides, in the case of my family they were either middle class or from farming communities. But they had their properties seized just the same as the fat cats that Batista personally indulged.

You're very welcome for the information by the way, as anecdotal as it might be.

I'm aware that Batista was largely unpopular. Popular leaders don't generally face successful revolutions. My point, as badly made as it may have been, was that I understand that there are many reasons that Cuban Americans might hold grudges against Castro. That was one. I addressed your comments regarding your relative in the part of my comment that you left out of the quote.

Yes, it's just that when you stated they'd lived comfortably under Batista as opposed to under Castro I assumed that was to imply they had rosy memories of his dictatorship. They actually lived as comfortably under Batista as they did before him, as his junta didn't bring about significant improvement or deteroriation of the general standard of living in Cuba (with the exception of those he gave special treatment).

Point taken, though.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

OMG! I hadn't even thought of that! We need trade with Cuba NOW!!!

I can think of like six places in town where I can get Coke with real sugar, and that's just off the top of my head. Hell, there are like three or four in walking distance.

Not everywhere has this option. In Canada it is virtually impossible to get, without ordering it from the internet.

And end to the embargo would mean that all Coke was real Coke again!

[Bezkoshtovnya]

The US shouldn't talk with leftist nation's.

It must be somewhat twistedly blissful to have such a simplistic and illogical outlook on the world

[Glorious KASSRD]

Finally. As an American, I see no benefit to acting like a Cold War is still going on. There's only five Communist states left, the only one worth noting about being really a Capitalist nation in all but name. Cuba's government is one that actually is decent, and I hope both America and Cuba benefit from normalizing relations.

[Eastern Equestria]

Finally. As an American, I see no benefit to acting like a Cold War is still going on. There's only five Communist states left, the only one worth noting about being really a Capitalist nation in all but name. Cuba's government is one that actually is decent, and I hope both America and Cuba benefit from normalizing relations.

I wouldn't call Cuba's government decent. It's improved, I'll concede that. I agree with the rest of your statements.

[Saiwania]

The US should have no problem then, with opening an embassy with Iran or North Korea if Cuba is getting accepted. I fail to see what makes Cuba any more deserving of US diplomacy than the other nations the US doesn't currently care for.

[United States Kingdom]

It took him long enough. Good to see that talks are occurring.

[Glorious KASSRD]

Finally. As an American, I see no benefit to acting like a Cold War is still going on. There's only five Communist states left, the only one worth noting about being really a Capitalist nation in all but name. Cuba's government is one that actually is decent, and I hope both America and Cuba benefit from normalizing relations.

I wouldn't call Cuba's government decent. It's improved, I'll concede that. I agree with the rest of your statements.

Well, decent by Communist dictatorship standards, I meant. I don't like it, but is better than many other regimes that existed during the Cold War.