US/Cuba to Begin Talks

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

I love people from Eastern Europe giving opinions - obviously totally informed ones *nod* - on stuff that their countries didn't experience, but ours, as if they could really know what it is to experience American rather than Soviet slapping in this side of the world. Nobody cares about your McCarthyism, go the fucking away.

[Greater Miami Shores]

None of these are reasons for lifting the embargo. The embargo is. It should not be changed unless there is a compelling reason to change it.

"It is" isn't an argument. The embargo should be lifted because it hasn't worked and the US has gotten one of the things it wanted, namely the release of Alan Gross. Now we move to diplomatic relations and trade to pressure change.

The only reason the embargo has failed is because of nations like Canada and the EU nations economic, political and tourist relations with the government of Cuba.
While is good that Alan Gross has been released and is back to his family and friends, that is the only good thing that might come of this. Once the Cuban government gets American trade, loans, credits and tourists, there is no so called presure of change by the American government on the Cuban government. Raul Castro has said he will release (send) about 53 political prisoners to the United States, not within Cuba. The Cuban government just suspended talks with the EU nations on political and human rights change, no wonder.

[Geilinor]

I love people from Eastern Europe giving opinions - obviously totally informed ones *nod* - on stuff that their countries didn't experience, but ours, as if they could really know what it is to experience American rather than Soviet slapping in this side of the world. Nobody cares about your McCarthyism, go the fucking away.

Like you really know what it is to be in Cuba in the first place. Like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz know either.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

I love people from Eastern Europe giving opinions - obviously totally informed ones *nod* - on stuff that their countries didn't experience, but ours, as if they could really know what it is to experience American rather than Soviet slapping in this side of the world. Nobody cares about your McCarthyism, go the fucking away.

Like you really know what it is to be in Cuba in the first place. Like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz know either.

That totally suppressed dissident Yoaní Sánchez comes and goes when it comes to her relationship with the island... and the government doesn't treat her like those of numberless American allies do to much less "socially dangerous" citizens, even though she is the loudest pester to them. Globo just made a report about the island and the doctor criticized the government as lazy and that it makes excuses for itself, the footage was made within the country. Funny, isn't it? SUCH EBIL TOTALITARIANISM

I don't give a damn to your liberal priorities, what I know is that Global North people should shut it, as this discussion doesn't concern them. I don't defend Castrism, do I? But they DO defend horrid institutions like the government of Ukraine.

[Conserative Morality]

I love people from Eastern Europe giving opinions - obviously totally informed ones *nod* - on stuff that their countries didn't experience, but ours, as if they could really know what it is to experience American rather than Soviet slapping in this side of the world. Nobody cares about your McCarthyism, go the fucking away.

lol

Your 'oppression' amounts to having absorbed a narrow strain of Western pseudo-academia that simultaneously preaches a doctrine of majority guilt while stripping minorities of agency (In said view, of course) by twisting and oversimplifying complex and legitimate concepts that address the complexity of power structures within society and the injustice they create. It's like anarchists whose total knowledge of the world comes from the one time they read a book by Noam Chomsky.

America hasn't given a shit about Brazil in decades. You're no more knowledgeable about American 'slapping' than the Eastern Europeans you disdain are.

[Geilinor]

But they DO defend horrid institutions like the government of Ukraine.

This isn't the right thread for that, but what would you prefer, Ukraine governing itself or Russia governing Ukraine? By the way, I support these talks with Cuba, but a democratic Cuba would be better. And those Eastern Europeans? Some of them have actually lived under Marxist-Leninist states.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

lol

Your 'oppression' amounts to having absorbed a narrow strain of Western pseudo-academia that simultaneously preaches a doctrine of majority guilt while stripping minorities of agency (In said view, of course) by twisting and oversimplifying complex and legitimate concepts that address the complexity of power structures within society and the injustice they create. It's like anarchists whose total knowledge of the world comes from the one time they read a book by Noam Chomsky.

America hasn't given a shit about Brazil in decades. You're no more knowledgeable about American 'slapping' than the Eastern Europeans you disdain are.

The government, maybe, but we still are under its direct area of influence and the damage inflicted on the past still carry consequences and people from there are interested in keeping us brainwashed and unconscious about all the shit we don't need to go through within the capitalist system, that in its ultimate consequences will only erase our agency over our own country, huge part of its natural resources and its capacity to maintain the environments necessary to our continuous livelihood here - and also that of the Indigenous peoples.

You don't need to support pro-neocolonialist demagoguery. Everybody knows that the consequences of these people's objectives is a status quo that is very fucking bad to us and will continue being so. We sure as hell don't need their 'emo and goth opinions' on what is best for underdeveloped countries and their peoples, and that is my point.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

But they DO defend horrid institutions like the government of Ukraine.

This isn't the right thread for that, but what would you prefer, Ukraine governing itself or Russia governing Ukraine? By the way, I support these talks with Cuba, but a democratic Cuba would be better.

I was in Cuba a few years ago. And although people weren't starving, it was obvious that they felt the effects of the embargo. I think this turn of events is good. I think opening relations between the US and Cuba is a good step. I fail to see why the Cuban expats are so pissy. This gives them the chance to see family they haven't seen in decades, family many left behind in Cuba.

[Conserative Morality]

The government, maybe,

No, I can assure you, the people too.

but we still are under its direct area of influence and the damage inflicted on the past still carry consequences and people from there are interested in keeping us brainwashed and unconscious about all the shit we don't need to go through within the capitalist system, that in its ultimate consequences will only erase our agency over our own country, huge part of its natural resources and its capacity to maintain the environments necessary to our continuous livelihood here - and also that of the Indigenous peoples.

So what you're saying is that you don't like the way your countrymen vote so you blame it on the system. Excellent. Good to know.

The only oppression you're interested in is the oppression of your fellow man as a salve for a guilt complex that has nothing to do with you or them.

You don't need to support pro-neocolonialist demagoguery. Everybody knows that the consequences of these people's objectives is a status quo that is very fucking bad to us and will continue being so. We sure as hell don't need their 'emo and goth opinions' on what is best for underdeveloped countries and their peoples, and that is my point.

You think that the opinions of individuals who only very recently came out from under State Socialist governments are not relevant when discussing State Socialist governments?

If anyone's opinion here is unneeded, it's the one from the country with little in common with either of the two players here. (Hint: This is Brazil)

The way you trumpet on about who is allowed to speak about what is nauseating, but the hypocrisy of it is what really gets me.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

But they DO defend horrid institutions like the government of Ukraine.

This isn't the right thread for that, but what would you prefer, Ukraine governing itself or Russia governing Ukraine? By the way, I support these talks with Cuba, but a democratic Cuba would be better. And those Eastern Europeans? Some of them have actually lived under Marxist-Leninist states.

And fuck the blind generalization of their supposed lived experience (I bet they are youth who barely lived under such regimes anyway; most people from those countries who lived through the transition resent neoliberalism and what it caused), because the Americas is an absolutely different scenario from Europe.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

You think that the opinions of individuals who only very recently came out from under State Socialist governments are not relevant when discussing State Socialist governments?

If anyone's opinion here is unneeded, it's the one from the country with little in common with either of the two players here. (Hint: This is Brazil)

The way you trumpet on about who is allowed to speak about what is nauseating, but the hypocrisy of it is what really gets me.

Because all state socialist countries are the same, worked/exist under the same conditions, are culturally similar, and their existence and reaction reflects the same attitudes from higher world powers. Obviously.

[Scyobayrynn]

...on normalizing relations.

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30516740

This is huge in my opinion. After a half century of the (I would argue) failed Cuban embargo, to see the US/Cuba finally move out of a Cold War mentality into the 21st century is a welcome change of pace.

What say you NSG? Do you see the talks succeeding? Will they lead to concrete change in Cuba, politically or socially? Or will the talks fail due to likely opposition in the now Republican controlled US Congress?

The United States has always had more sway by putting dollars into a nation than withholding from a nation.

United States Soft Power is a Weapon of Mass Destruction in terms of politics. To place an embargo is really weakening our effect over a nation not increasing it. We should have NEVER embargo'd Cuba and really its just another example of the failure of Kennedy. We made life really hard for the Cuban people and did jack shit to the government...bravo.



These talks are 50 years too late. Its shameful it took this long.

[Conserative Morality]

Because all state socialist countries are the same, worked/exist under the same conditions, are culturally similar, and their existence and reaction reflects the same attitudes from higher world powers. Obviously.

Because shared attributes between countries do not reflect uh, what, shared attributes?

You speak of what these individuals don't know while trumpeting about how much you understand their lack of experience. There are people on this forum who have lived through that shit - and some of them differ in opinion on it, shock and horror. You don't get to play "Who's the biggest victim" when no one else is interested in being a victim. "Brazil and Latin America are so oppressed by the US! Eastern Europeans could never understand!"

I've got news for you: particularly in the modern world, Eastern Europe gets a lot more attention from the US than Latin America. You want to talk about how evil America is? Fine. You've got an opinion on it. But you don't get to denigrate the experiences of others for the sake of scoring a few political points against The Great Oppressor.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Apart from the churches in Cuba and illegal non governmental organizations, many or all which are infiltrated by Cuban government agents to begin with. The only so called civil society organizations in Cuba are legally registered independent non governmental organizations who swear allegiance to the Cuban government and the revolution. Everything in Cuba is the revolution this the revolution that.

The Committees for the defense of the Revolution, which keep a record of every person in the neighborhood, where they work, where they live, who they see, who visits them, their voluntary work record or not for the revolution, thier loyalty or not to the revolution, is a legally registered independent non governmental organization. Until that organization is dismantled by the Cuban government, there will not be any real change in Cuba, you can believe in. As Fidel Castro said, the main duty of the CDRs will always be to be the eyes, hands, arms and ears of the revolution. Change you can believe in.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Apart from the churches in Cuba and illegal non governmental organizations, many or all which are infiltrated by Cuban government agents to begin with. The only so called civil society organizations in Cuba are legally registered independent non governmental organizations who swear allegiance to the Cuban government and the revolution. Everything in Cuba is the revolution this the revolution that.

The Committees for the defense of the Revolution, which keep a record of every person in the neighborhood, where they work, where they live, who they see, who visits them, their voluntary work record or not for the revolution, thier loyalty or not to the revolution, is a legally registered independent non governmental organization. Until that organization is dismantled by the Cuban government, there will not be any real change in Cuba, you can believe in. As Fidel Castro said, the main duty of the CDRs will always be to be the eyes, hands, arms and ears of the revolution. Change you can believe in.

If you're trying to convince people here that the Cuban government is oppressive, there's no need. With a few scattered exceptions, we all realize this. What you're failing to show is how the Cuban government is so much more oppressive than other regimes with which we trade (e.g., Saudi Arabia and China) that they are deserving of being singled out for continued special treatment in the form of our current policy.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Apart from the churches in Cuba and illegal non governmental organizations, many or all which are infiltrated by Cuban government agents to begin with. The only so called civil society organizations in Cuba are legally registered independent non governmental organizations who swear allegiance to the Cuban government and the revolution. Everything in Cuba is the revolution this the revolution that.

The Committees for the defense of the Revolution, which keep a record of every person in the neighborhood, where they work, where they live, who they see, who visits them, their voluntary work record or not for the revolution, thier loyalty or not to the revolution, is a legally registered independent non governmental organization. Until that organization is dismantled by the Cuban government, there will not be any real change in Cuba, you can believe in. As Fidel Castro said, the main duty of the CDRs will always be to be the eyes, hands, arms and ears of the revolution. Change you can believe in.

If you're trying to convince people here that the Cuban government is oppressive, there's no need. With a few scattered exceptions, we all realize this. What you're failing to show is how the Cuban government is so much more oppressive than other regimes with which we trade (e.g., Saudi Arabia and China) that they are deserving of being singled out for continued special treatment in the form of our current policy.

Good point on me. But the way most of those here and those democratic nations like Canada, the Eu nations and others that support the oppresive Cuban government with trade, loans, credits, money $, tourists and excuses is what hurts Cuban Americans.

[Scyobayrynn]

Apart from the churches in Cuba and illegal non governmental organizations, many or all which are infiltrated by Cuban government agents to begin with. The only so called civil society organizations in Cuba are legally registered independent non governmental organizations who swear allegiance to the Cuban government and the revolution. Everything in Cuba is the revolution this the revolution that.

The Committees for the defense of the Revolution, which keep a record of every person in the neighborhood, where they work, where they live, who they see, who visits them, their voluntary work record or not for the revolution, thier loyalty or not to the revolution, is a legally registered independent non governmental organization. Until that organization is dismantled by the Cuban government, there will not be any real change in Cuba, you can believe in. As Fidel Castro said, the main duty of the CDRs will always be to be the eyes, hands, arms and ears of the revolution. Change you can believe in.

If you're trying to convince people here that the Cuban government is oppressive, there's no need. With a few scattered exceptions, we all realize this. What you're failing to show is how the Cuban government is so much more oppressive than other regimes with which we trade (e.g., Saudi Arabia and China) that they are deserving of being singled out for continued special treatment in the form of our current policy.

Also, how we serve to end the oppression in Cuba with Embargo where in other places we have opted to use interaction to effect change.

What makes Cuba such an anomaly?

The answer is of course nothing, and the Embargo from the very beginning from the very first day was absolutely stupid and bad foreign policy.
However Kennedy did it, so it must be good. Im looking at you too Reagan!
At least Carter tried to let that shit fall apart.

[Eastern Equestria]

Apart from the churches in Cuba and illegal non governmental organizations, many or all which are infiltrated by Cuban government agents to begin with. The only so called civil society organizations in Cuba are legally registered independent non governmental organizations who swear allegiance to the Cuban government and the revolution. Everything in Cuba is the revolution this the revolution that.

The Committees for the defense of the Revolution, which keep a record of every person in the neighborhood, where they work, where they live, who they see, who visits them, their voluntary work record or not for the revolution, thier loyalty or not to the revolution, is a legally registered independent non governmental organization. Until that organization is dismantled by the Cuban government, there will not be any real change in Cuba, you can believe in. As Fidel Castro said, the main duty of the CDRs will always be to be the eyes, hands, arms and ears of the revolution. Change you can believe in.

If you're trying to convince people here that the Cuban government is oppressive, there's no need. With a few scattered exceptions, we all realize this. What you're failing to show is how the Cuban government is so much more oppressive than other regimes with which we trade (e.g., Saudi Arabia and China) that they are deserving of being singled out for continued special treatment in the form of our current policy.

That Cuba isn't particularly more oppressive than those nations didn't seem to be the point. The point was that normalized relations with the U.S. probably won't bring about as significant a shift in the social/political climate of Cuba as we'd hope (if at all). Of course keeping the embargo in place would do nothing towards that end.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

If you're trying to convince people here that the Cuban government is oppressive, there's no need. With a few scattered exceptions, we all realize this. What you're failing to show is how the Cuban government is so much more oppressive than other regimes with which we trade (e.g., Saudi Arabia and China) that they are deserving of being singled out for continued special treatment in the form of our current policy.

Good point on me. But the way most of those here and those democratic nations like Canada, the Eu nations and others that support the oppresive Cuban government with trade, loans, credits, money $, tourists and excuses is what hurts Cuban Americans.

How does this hurt Cuban Americans?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

If you're trying to convince people here that the Cuban government is oppressive, there's no need. With a few scattered exceptions, we all realize this. What you're failing to show is how the Cuban government is so much more oppressive than other regimes with which we trade (e.g., Saudi Arabia and China) that they are deserving of being singled out for continued special treatment in the form of our current policy.

That Cuba isn't particularly more oppressive than those nations didn't seem to be the point. The point was that normalized relations with the U.S. probably won't bring about as significant a shift in the social/political climate of Cuba as we'd hope. Of course keeping the embargo in place would do absolutely nothing towards that end.

This actually gives us an opening to negotiate, whereas previously we had nothing. We've gone from no chance of effecting change to a slim one. Meantime, new markets are being opened for American goods, which is good for business in the States.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Good point on me. But the way most of those here and those democratic nations like Canada, the Eu nations and others that support the oppresive Cuban government with trade, loans, credits, money $, tourists and excuses is what hurts Cuban Americans.

How does this hurt Cuban Americans?

At this point in time, probably it doesn't hurt them at all. I think this objection is now more one of custom than one of reason. "Grandpa hated Castrism, so will we." I don't support the Castro regime anymore than most, but the embargo is a fossil and it's clear it didn't work. It's foolish to keep this sanction going, expecting some sort of result that hasn't come at all in 50+ years.

[Greater Miami Shores]

If you're trying to convince people here that the Cuban government is oppressive, there's no need. With a few scattered exceptions, we all realize this. What you're failing to show is how the Cuban government is so much more oppressive than other regimes with which we trade (e.g., Saudi Arabia and China) that they are deserving of being singled out for continued special treatment in the form of our current policy.

Also, how we serve to end the oppression in Cuba with Embargo where in other places we have opted to use interaction to effect change.



What makes Cuba such an anomaly?

The answer is of course nothing, and the Embargo from the very beginning from the very first day was absolutely stupid and bad foreign policy.
However Kennedy did it, so it must be good. Im looking at you too Reagan!
At least Carter tried to let that shit fall apart.

After the Soviet Union and its Eastern European satelite nations fell apart, what saved Fidel Castro's oppressive government, was trade, loans, credits, tourists and money from Canada and the EU nations. The so called government dollar stores in Cuba, where Cubans could buy products with money sent by Cuban Americans to thier families and friends in Cuba. Cheap Venezuelan oil provided by Chavez and now Maduro. Now its supposed to be with all of the above nations and most of my fellow nationstaters support, including the USA. Than you guys wonder why those crazy Cuban Americans like myself do what they do and feel the way they do.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Also, how we serve to end the oppression in Cuba with Embargo where in other places we have opted to use interaction to effect change.



What makes Cuba such an anomaly?

The answer is of course nothing, and the Embargo from the very beginning from the very first day was absolutely stupid and bad foreign policy.
However Kennedy did it, so it must be good. Im looking at you too Reagan!
At least Carter tried to let that shit fall apart.

After the Soviet Union and its Eastern European satelite nations fell apart, what saved Fidel Castro's oppressive government, was trade, loans, credits, tourists and money from Canada and the EU nations. The so called government dollar stores in Cuba, where Cubans could buy products with money sent by Cuban Americans to thier families and friends in Cuba. Cheap Venezuelan oil provided by Chavez and now Maduro. Now its supposed to be with all of the above nations and most of my fellow nationstaters support, including the USA. Than you guys wonder why those crazy Cuban Americans like myself do what they do and feel the way they do.

The problem is: what the hell is the U.S. embargo accomplishing if this is already going on? Nothing, that's what.

It's ridiculous to pretend that if we just leave the embargo 50 more years we're going to see some change. We won't.

[Eastern Equestria]

That Cuba isn't particularly more oppressive than those nations didn't seem to be the point. The point was that normalized relations with the U.S. probably won't bring about as significant a shift in the social/political climate of Cuba as we'd hope. Of course keeping the embargo in place would do absolutely nothing towards that end.

This actually gives us an opening to negotiate, whereas previously we had nothing. We've gone from no chance of effecting change to a slim one. Meantime, new markets are being opened for American goods, which is good for business in the States.

I don't disagree. From an Americentric viewpoint it's undoubtedly a win-win. But from the perspective of Cubans and Cuban-Americans (who needless to say have vested interest in the matter), the improvement that these open relations would bring to the oppressive political environment that Cubans continue to be subjected to seem incremental at best. And of course you can't expect us to be very happy about the fact that this would also benefit the hated Castro regime. Yes, the embargo is useless, but nullyfying it will more than likely just mean more of the same for the Cuban populace. Hence why we're not exactly enthusiastic about this development.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

This actually gives us an opening to negotiate, whereas previously we had nothing. We've gone from no chance of effecting change to a slim one. Meantime, new markets are being opened for American goods, which is good for business in the States.

I don't disagree. From an Americentric viewpoint it's undoubtedly a win-win. But from the perspective of Cubans and Cuban-Americans (who needless to say have vested interest in the matter), the improvement that these open relations would bring to the oppressive political environment that Cubans continue to be subjected to seem incremental at best. And of course you can't expect us to be very happy about the fact that this would also benefit the hated Castro regime. Yes, the embargo is useless, but nullyfying it will more than likely just mean more of the same for the Cuban populace. Hence why we're not exactly enthusiastic about this development.

Understood. Does what you're seeing "on the ground", so to speak, contradict the polling that shows increasing acceptance of normalizing relations among the Cuban-American populace?