US/Cuba to Begin Talks

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I'm rather baffled at the reaction of the Cuban expat community in places like Puerto Rico, Mexico and Miami.

It's a big thing. After 50+ years, this embargo was just a fossil. It's good to see a dialogue been opened between the US and Cuba to possibly lift it.

[Len Hyet]

I'm rather baffled at the reaction of the Cuban expat community in places like Puerto Rico, Mexico and Miami.

It's a big thing. After 50+ years, this embargo was just a fossil. It's good to see a dialogue been opened between the US and Cuba to possibly lift it.

The Cuban expat community is largely made up of people who lost a lot, some everything, when the communists came to power. They have a vested interest in seeing the Castro regime thrown down and something that recognizes their rights to property held prior to the Castros installed in its place.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Well, provided by 'the Cubans' you mean 'Castro'n'kin and their merry band of murderers'.

Yes because glorious freedom administered by 'Merica never killed anyone right!?

^ This

If you know anything about American interventionism during the Cold War, the fact is that besides South Korea they were all failures.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Yes because glorious freedom administered by 'Merica never killed anyone right!?

^ This

If you know anything about American interventionism during the Cold War, the fact is that besides South Korea they were all failures.

Nicaragua and Grenada beg to differ...

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm rather baffled at the reaction of the Cuban expat community in places like Puerto Rico, Mexico and Miami.

It's a big thing. After 50+ years, this embargo was just a fossil. It's good to see a dialogue been opened between the US and Cuba to possibly lift it.

The Cuban expat community is largely made up of people who lost a lot, some everything, when the communists came to power. They have a vested interest in seeing the Castro regime thrown down and something that recognizes their rights to property held prior to the Castros installed in its place.

The question is why?!

I mean why keep complaining about property they probably have even doubled or tripled their gains nowadays? Can't they just move on and stop acting like a piece of land in Cuba is that important?!

I mean, to be honest, most Cuban refugees came to America seeking more money, they still do. If things were as horrible then they would talk about something else but property? I just don't see how land is that important of an issue.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

^ This

If you know anything about American interventionism during the Cold War, the fact is that besides South Korea they were all failures.

Nicaragua and Grenada beg to differ...

Nicaragua was the same as if the Sandinistas would have couped Somoza, really. Except for Reagan having a hard-on in the 80s and funding the Iran-Contra affair which violated many human rights. Only if you mean Carter's funding to the Sandinista front.

Somoza was a ruthless capitalist dictator, which sat well with United States' interests. You see, unlike many people who believe "oh my gosh, America was so great back then!" I see their actions and go "they were not, they were just looking at us like we owed them something" because they even helped to kick out popular governments for ruthless dictators simply in the name of "capitalism".

Also, I mean, it depends on what you call a "success". I don't think the United States completely being idiots about the entire situation and then deposing a government to one more akin to U.S. Interests can be considered a "success".

[Len Hyet]

The Cuban expat community is largely made up of people who lost a lot, some everything, when the communists came to power. They have a vested interest in seeing the Castro regime thrown down and something that recognizes their rights to property held prior to the Castros installed in its place.

The question is why?!

I mean why keep complaining about property they probably have even doubled or tripled their gains nowadays? Can't they just move on and stop acting like a piece of land in Cuba is that important?!

I mean, to be honest, most Cuban refugees came to America seeking more money, they still do. If things were as horrible then they would talk about something else but property? I just don't see how land is that important of an issue.

Property doesn't just include land. Homes that have been owned for generations, yes land that has been owned for generations, money, assets, businesses, these people lost a lot, some lost everything when the communists came to power. That's not something you just give up on, especially since it happened to you specifically. Not your dad, not your granddad, you. If I took everything you owned and made it so dangerous for you that you had to leave the country of your birth, you would be pretty pissed too.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Nicaragua and Grenada beg to differ...

Nicaragua was the same as if the Sandinistas would have couped Somoza, really.

Somoza was a ruthless capitalist dictator, which sat well with United States' interests. You see, unlike many people who believe "oh my gosh, America was so great back then!" I see their actions and go "they were not, they were just looking at us like we owed them something" because they even helped to kick out popular governments for ruthless dictators simply in the name of "capitalism".

And then the Sandinistas* became a ruthless dictatorship perusing genocidal policies against the Miskito Indians and violently suppressing all opposition before attempting a wicked land take-over just like their puppet masters in Havana and Moscow did to their own countries at some point.

The US backed the Contras, some of whom were pretty messed up in their own right, and a decade later the FSLN government was forced to negotiate with the rebels and cease their occupation of the Miskito coast and open up the country to elections.

*I actually read very recently that one of the key leaders who helped coin the term "Sandinista" actually turned against the FSLN government and fought with the Contras; so now I'm not certain it's fair to refer the the FSLN as Sandinistas...

[The Kievan People]

You know what we get for normalizing relations and opening some trade? I'll tell you what we get from that: We get normalized relations and some trade. We get the end of a policy that has had well over half of a century to force the change that it was intended to cause, and it has been an abysmal failure in every single respect. Yes, it's caused some damage to the Cuban economy, but they proved resilient under that pressure, and made up for it with trade with everybody else in the entire world. Castro survived long after his Soviet Bloc colleagues had fallen to firing squads and trials for crimes against the people they led. If anything, it could be argued that the continuance of the embargo gave Castro an enemy to point at, allowing him to paint the United States as the source of all troubles for the Cuban people, and thereby deflect justified criticism by his own people.

Doesn't it say something when the one Soviet Bloc nation that we refused to do any business with is the one that ended up surviving? Maybe going it alone on trying to isolate them is actually having the opposite effect from the one desired, and it's time to negotiate a relationship based less on pettiness and more on what is actually in the best interests of both nations.

None of these are reasons for lifting the embargo. The embargo is. It should not be changed unless there is a compelling reason to change it.

I can't really see any compelling anything case for keeping it going, either. Unless continuing the macho uber-testosterone pissing contest we won twenty years ago counts.

Again, not a reason to lift it. It costs America basically nothing.

Not so much.

There's the fact that Russia won't have a socket in which to install a spy base, for one.

Just because we choose to put our heads in the sand and go "LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU!" doesn't mean the Russians can't make their own moves independently from us. Cuba is vital to our security interests in the region since it's the only nation that we don't have under check unlike the rest of Latin America.

Are you Obama?

Russia will still get it's spy base and Cuba will get a big injection of cash. It is painfully naive to think that Cuba will suddenly change its policies just because Obama was getting antsy about his legacy. Nothing has changed in Cuba, they will continue to oppose the United States in Latin America and build ties with America's rivals. The embargo is the only thing preventing them from having their cake (being the standard bearer of anti-Americanism in Latin America) and eating it too (profiting from trade with the United States).

Countries do not act out of the goodness of their hearts. Especially dictatorships. It is a terrible mistake to give them anything without demanding something tangible and immediate in return.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Are you Obama?

Russia will still get it's spy base and Cuba will get a big injection of cash. It is painfully naive to think that Cuba will suddenly change its policies just because Obama was getting antsy about his legacy. Nothing has changed in Cuba, they will continue to oppose the United States in Latin America and build ties with America's rivals. The embargo is the only thing preventing them from having their cake (being the standard bearer of anti-Americanism in Latin America) and eating it too (profiting from trade with the United States).

Countries do not act out of the goodness of their hearts. Especially dictatorships. It is a terrible mistake to give them anything without demanding something tangible and immediate in return.

Err... what?

No, that's not the point, at all. Of course all nations are self-interested, that's not disputable.

The problem is that us thinking Cuba is some evil dictatorship and making Castro feel like we frankly don't give a shit what they do is more of a compelling reason to actually give Russia what they want. Russia, as much as we criticize the assholes, know how to play diplomacy at an international scale, which the United States frankly doesn't with our "shoot first, ask questions later" logic.

[Bolnoa]

Yes because glorious freedom administered by 'Merica never killed anyone right!?

^ This

If you know anything about American interventionism during the Cold War, the fact is that besides South Korea they were all failures.

I wouldn't say that much...

Cuba like America did indeed intervene difference was how long the Cubans intervened and it was mostly Cubans head first into combat and not using money talks policies.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

You know what we get for normalizing relations and opening some trade? I'll tell you what we get from that: We get normalized relations and some trade. We get the end of a policy that has had well over half of a century to force the change that it was intended to cause, and it has been an abysmal failure in every single respect. Yes, it's caused some damage to the Cuban economy, but they proved resilient under that pressure, and made up for it with trade with everybody else in the entire world. Castro survived long after his Soviet Bloc colleagues had fallen to firing squads and trials for crimes against the people they led. If anything, it could be argued that the continuance of the embargo gave Castro an enemy to point at, allowing him to paint the United States as the source of all troubles for the Cuban people, and thereby deflect justified criticism by his own people.

Doesn't it say something when the one Soviet Bloc nation that we refused to do any business with is the one that ended up surviving? Maybe going it alone on trying to isolate them is actually having the opposite effect from the one desired, and it's time to negotiate a relationship based less on pettiness and more on what is actually in the best interests of both nations.

None of these are reasons for lifting the embargo. The embargo is. It should not be changed unless there is a compelling reason to change it.

On the contrary, those are excellent points for lifting the embargo, since they all add up to the same thing: Due to a lack of international agreement on the embargo, the policy is not working, and is indeed having the opposite effect from the one intended. The ones who are the most negatively affected by this are the rank-and-file working Cubans, and since they have no serious access to American media, they've largely been brought up to believe that the economic failings of Castro's government are a result of the American embargo, not the result of poor economic policies. This has, in turn, allowed Castro to paint Cuba as the victim of an international bully, and Cubans don't like to think of themselves as the type to give into bullying anymore than Americans do.

Again, not a reason to lift it. It costs America basically nothing.

It costs American businesses access to the Cuban market, Americans access to Cuban goods, and the families of emigres the ability to communicate with those they left behind.

[Occupied Deutschland]

The question is why?!

I mean why keep complaining about property they probably have even doubled or tripled their gains nowadays? Can't they just move on and stop acting like a piece of land in Cuba is that important?!

I mean, to be honest, most Cuban refugees came to America seeking more money, they still do. If things were as horrible then they would talk about something else but property? I just don't see how land is that important of an issue.

Property doesn't just include land. Homes that have been owned for generations, yes land that has been owned for generations, money, assets, businesses, these people lost a lot, some lost everything when the communists came to power. That's not something you just give up on, especially since it happened to you specifically. Not your dad, not your granddad, you. If I took everything you owned and made it so dangerous for you that you had to leave the country of your birth, you would be pretty pissed too.

One should also keep in mind the imprisonment and execution of direct relatives by the Castro government. I'm unsure how much it is brought up by the Cuban expat community in particular, as they aren't a large source of influence in my neck of the woods, but Vietnamese refugees share many of the same concerns, and Vietnam isn't still headed by Ho Chi Minh or Le Duan whereas Cuba is still very Castro'n'kin centered.

[New Werpland]

I believe that, until Cuba transitions into a free-market democracy, there should be no let up of sanctions.

Obama is making a really bad mistake.

If a communist economic setup is supposed to collapse on itself anyway, what's the point of putting sanctions on it?

[Fortschritte]

I believe that, until Cuba transitions into a free-market democracy, there should be no let up of sanctions.

Obama is making a really bad mistake.

If a communist economic setup is supposed to collapse on itself anyway, what's the point of putting sanctions on it?

For some odd reasons, a handful of people believe that a embargo that isolates a country will somehow spur it's collapse, even though it's isolation is arguably why the people haven't "revolted" yet.

[Eastern Equestria]

Property doesn't just include land. Homes that have been owned for generations, yes land that has been owned for generations, money, assets, businesses, these people lost a lot, some lost everything when the communists came to power. That's not something you just give up on, especially since it happened to you specifically. Not your dad, not your granddad, you. If I took everything you owned and made it so dangerous for you that you had to leave the country of your birth, you would be pretty pissed too.

One should also keep in mind the imprisonment and execution of direct relatives by the Castro government. I'm unsure how much it is brought up by the Cuban expat community in particular, as they aren't a large source of influence in my neck of the woods, but Vietnamese refugees share many of the same concerns, and Vietnam isn't still headed by Ho Chi Minh or Le Duan whereas Cuba is still very Castro'n'kin centered.

I can attest to this.

[Wisconsin9]

I can't really see any compelling anything case for keeping it going, either. Unless continuing the macho uber-testosterone pissing contest we won twenty years ago counts.

Again, not a reason to lift it. It costs America basically nothing.

Keeping it going is a dickish thing to do, there's a reason to lift it.

[Rio Cana]

I'm rather baffled at the reaction of the Cuban expat community in places like Puerto Rico, Mexico and Miami.

It's a big thing. After 50+ years, this embargo was just a fossil. It's good to see a dialogue been opened between the US and Cuba to possibly lift it.

The Cuban expat community is largely made up of people who lost a lot, some everything, when the communists came to power. They have a vested interest in seeing the Castro regime thrown down and something that recognizes their rights to property held prior to the Castros installed in its place.

There was a Cuban expat on the radio in Puerto Rico and who runs a small type of expat paper. He says he is all for it. They then said that PR. only has 11.000 expat Cuban. Generally speaking, the hardliners want no change. There are not many of them. Also, remember, there are expats doing a very lucrative business with Cuba when it comes to expats sending items to there family to Cuba at very high prices. This opening of relations will bring in competition and end there so called monopoly.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The Cuban expat community is largely made up of people who lost a lot, some everything, when the communists came to power. They have a vested interest in seeing the Castro regime thrown down and something that recognizes their rights to property held prior to the Castros installed in its place.

There was a Cuban expat on the radio in Puerto Rico and who runs a small type of expat paper. He says he is all for it. They then said that PR. only has 11.000 expat Cuban. Generally speaking, the hardliners want no change. There are not many of them. Also, remember, there are expats doing a very lucrative business with Cuba when it comes to expats sending items to there family to Cuba at very high prices. This opening of relations will bring in competition and end there so called monopoly.

If all that is true, I fail to see any issue here. While the expats grow fat and eat and live at their leisure, the Cuban people there in the island nation are the ones suffering the effects of the embargo. For 50+ years. I think they're the ones who matter and it's about time the embargo is lifted.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

There was a Cuban expat on the radio in Puerto Rico and who runs a small type of expat paper. He says he is all for it. They then said that PR. only has 11.000 expat Cuban. Generally speaking, the hardliners want no change. There are not many of them. Also, remember, there are expats doing a very lucrative business with Cuba when it comes to expats sending items to there family to Cuba at very high prices. This opening of relations will bring in competition and end there so called monopoly.

If all that is true, I fail to see any issue here. While the expats grow fat and eat and live at their leisure, the Cuban people there in the island nation are the ones suffering the effects of the embargo. For 50+ years. I think they're the ones who matter and it's about time the embargo is lifted.

Except for the fact Republican conservatives are going "but muh hurdun hurr durr" down in DC.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If all that is true, I fail to see any issue here. While the expats grow fat and eat and live at their leisure, the Cuban people there in the island nation are the ones suffering the effects of the embargo. For 50+ years. I think they're the ones who matter and it's about time the embargo is lifted.

Except for the fact Republican conservatives are going "but muh hurdun hurr durr" down in DC.

Yeah. But as far as I'm concerned, the GOP can go fuck itself.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Except for the fact Republican conservatives are going "but muh hurdun hurr durr" down in DC.

Yeah. But as far as I'm concerned, the GOP can go fuck itself.

I mean my dad and I disagree on many politics and political figures valuations, but now we have found a common hatred to gang on: the Cruz-Rubio chestbeating. Duo of fuckers. They're the loudest assholes right now. Fuck'em

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Yeah. But as far as I'm concerned, the GOP can go fuck itself.

I mean my dad and I disagree on many politics and political figures valuations, but now we have found a common hatred to gang on: the Cruz-Rubio chestbeating. Duo of fuckers. They're the loudest assholes right now. Fuck'em

Saddest part is those two fuckwads are being seen as spokespersons for the Republican Latino population.

Anyway, I'm honestly glad the dialogue between the US and Cuba is being opened. Hopefully the embargo will be buried deep in a deep grave, where it should've been put in a long time ago.

[Andzhalswoodosia]

I would like to visit Cuba,…..if the travel ban is lifted as well.

[Geilinor]

You know what we get for normalizing relations and opening some trade? I'll tell you what we get from that: We get normalized relations and some trade. We get the end of a policy that has had well over half of a century to force the change that it was intended to cause, and it has been an abysmal failure in every single respect. Yes, it's caused some damage to the Cuban economy, but they proved resilient under that pressure, and made up for it with trade with everybody else in the entire world. Castro survived long after his Soviet Bloc colleagues had fallen to firing squads and trials for crimes against the people they led. If anything, it could be argued that the continuance of the embargo gave Castro an enemy to point at, allowing him to paint the United States as the source of all troubles for the Cuban people, and thereby deflect justified criticism by his own people.

Doesn't it say something when the one Soviet Bloc nation that we refused to do any business with is the one that ended up surviving? Maybe going it alone on trying to isolate them is actually having the opposite effect from the one desired, and it's time to negotiate a relationship based less on pettiness and more on what is actually in the best interests of both nations.

None of these are reasons for lifting the embargo. The embargo is. It should not be changed unless there is a compelling reason to change it.

"It is" isn't an argument. The embargo should be lifted because it hasn't worked and the US has gotten one of the things it wanted, namely the release of Alan Gross. Now we move to diplomatic relations and trade to pressure change.