US/Cuba to Begin Talks

[Fortschritte]

Ending the embargo will lead to nothing good. The last thing we need to do is allow Cuban products in America. All that would result from that is the Cuban economy being boosted at the expense of the American economy and make it easier for Castro to keep denying basic human rights to Cuban citizens.

For one, explain how that would hurt the US economy.

Secondly, it would actually make it harder for Castro to suppress his people. Throughout history, particularly recent history, military regimes and dictatorships that underwent economic growth saw the fall of their dictators. This is because economic growth allows for greater access to information, greater access to "Western goods", and as standards of living rise, people begin to demand more political and economic rights. It happened in South Korea, Chile, and other various countries.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Why don't we also cut off economic and diplomatic ties with China then?

I'd support that. It would obviously need to be a long process rather than a quick transition but it could work. More jobs for Americans, China would leave the dark side (communism). It's a win-win.

Wow.

[Fortschritte]

Why don't we also cut off economic and diplomatic ties with China then?

I'd support that. It would obviously need to be a long process rather than a quick transition but it could work. More jobs for Americans, China would leave the dark side (communism). It's a win-win.

Yeah, that wouldn't happen. It'd be a lose lose for everyone. The world economy would essentially crash, basic goods and services that you love would disappear, and millions of Chinese people would face famine. But, that's off topic, and very, very gloomy.

[Fortschritte]

I'd support that. It would obviously need to be a long process rather than a quick transition but it could work. More jobs for Americans, China would leave the dark side (communism). It's a win-win.

Wow.

It's at moments like these where I'm inclined to ditch my atheistic beliefs, and pray that certain NS'ers never, ever even catch a glimpse of political power.

[Teemant]

Ending the embargo will lead to nothing good. The last thing we need to do is allow Cuban products in America. All that would result from that is the Cuban economy being boosted at the expense of the American economy and make it easier for Castro to keep denying basic human rights to Cuban citizens.

For one, explain how that would hurt the US economy.

Secondly, it would actually make it harder for Castro to suppress his people. Throughout history, particularly recent history, military regimes and dictatorships that underwent economic growth saw the fall of their dictators. This is because economic growth allows for greater access to information, greater access to "Western goods", and as standards of living rise, people begin to demand more political and economic rights. It happened in South Korea, Chile, and other various countries.

Can you explain how it allows greater access to information? If media is owned by goverment it actually doesn't.

[Fortschritte]

For one, explain how that would hurt the US economy.

Secondly, it would actually make it harder for Castro to suppress his people. Throughout history, particularly recent history, military regimes and dictatorships that underwent economic growth saw the fall of their dictators. This is because economic growth allows for greater access to information, greater access to "Western goods", and as standards of living rise, people begin to demand more political and economic rights. It happened in South Korea, Chile, and other various countries.

Can you explain how it allows greater access to information? If media is owned by goverment it actually doesn't.

Well, when the economy grows, access to goods also grow. Ergo, Cubans would find more western movies, computers, and all those goodies that may encourage them to support greater democracy. But, I'd argue that my more important point was that economic growth almost always translates to more demand for economic and political rights. As a middle class grows, and as people become wealthier and more educated, it's natural for them to question authority and their position in society.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Ending the embargo will lead to nothing good. The last thing we need to do is allow Cuban products in America. All that would result from that is the Cuban economy being boosted at the expense of the American economy and make it easier for Castro to keep denying basic human rights to Cuban citizens.

Considering that Cuba will be a market for American goods, I believe that your negative assessment may be premature.

And really, easier to keep denying basic human rights? How difficult is it for him right now? Which dissidents have not been tortured? What political prisoners have we freed with our total lack of economic and cultural influence over Cuba? What opposition party has formed?

To sum up, what good is this embargo doing that is not outweighed by the harm?

[Burleson 2]

Ending the embargo will lead to nothing good. The last thing we need to do is allow Cuban products in America. All that would result from that is the Cuban economy being boosted at the expense of the American economy and make it easier for Castro to keep denying basic human rights to Cuban citizens.

For one, explain how that would hurt the US economy.

Secondly, it would actually make it harder for Castro to suppress his people. Throughout history, particularly recent history, military regimes and dictatorships that underwent economic growth saw the fall of their dictators. This is because economic growth allows for greater access to information, greater access to "Western goods", and as standards of living rise, people begin to demand more political and economic rights. It happened in South Korea, Chile, and other various countries.

Their fascist government would never allow western technology there. High standards of living can never exist in a communist country (Unless your idea of a decent life involves working like a dog for the same pay as a fast food waiter or a janitor and coming home to a crappy excuse for an apartment where the government is watching you 25/8).

[Communist Volkstrad]

Why don't we also cut off economic and diplomatic ties with China then?

I'd support that. It would obviously need to be a long process rather than a quick transition but it could work. More jobs for Americans, China would leave the dark side (communism). It's a win-win.

China is even more capitalist than the United States is.
They even admit it.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

For one, explain how that would hurt the US economy.

Secondly, it would actually make it harder for Castro to suppress his people. Throughout history, particularly recent history, military regimes and dictatorships that underwent economic growth saw the fall of their dictators. This is because economic growth allows for greater access to information, greater access to "Western goods", and as standards of living rise, people begin to demand more political and economic rights. It happened in South Korea, Chile, and other various countries.

Their fascist government would never allow western technology there. High standards of living can never exist in a communist country (Unless your idea of a decent life involves working like a dog for the same pay as a fast food waiter or a janitor and coming home to a crappy excuse for an apartment where the government is watching you 25/8).

Man I sure love Orwellian literature

[Kelinfort]

Why don't we also cut off economic and diplomatic ties with China then?

I'd support that. It would obviously need to be a long process rather than a quick transition but it could work. More jobs for Americans, China would leave the dark side (communism). It's a win-win.

Lol. Seriously, do you want an international crisis?

And I don't know about you, but private enterprise doesn't move to communist or socialist nations.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Why don't we also cut off economic and diplomatic ties with China then?

I'd support that. It would obviously need to be a long process rather than a quick transition but it could work. More jobs for Americans, China would leave the dark side (communism). It's a win-win.

China? Communist? Maybe 50 years ago. After 60 years of a worthless embargo on a nation like Cuba, you think it will actually work on something like China? That would only hurt the US, if anything.

[Teemant]

Can you explain how it allows greater access to information? If media is owned by goverment it actually doesn't.

Well, when the economy grows, access to goods also grow. Ergo, Cubans would find more western movies, computers, and all those goodies that may encourage them to support greater democracy. But, I'd argue that my more important point was that economic growth almost always translates to more demand for economic and political rights. As a middle class grows, and as people become wealthier and more educated, it's natural for them to question authority and their position in society.

How are they going to find more western movies if they are not being sold? They might have computers but it doesn't change internet freedoms or Cuba will greate their own network without rest of the world.
And internet access is another topic because right now Cuban goverment worker gets 5 dollars per week but using internet cafe costs 10 dollars. Only their political elite would benefit from lifting sanctions.

[Fortschritte]

For one, explain how that would hurt the US economy.

Secondly, it would actually make it harder for Castro to suppress his people. Throughout history, particularly recent history, military regimes and dictatorships that underwent economic growth saw the fall of their dictators. This is because economic growth allows for greater access to information, greater access to "Western goods", and as standards of living rise, people begin to demand more political and economic rights. It happened in South Korea, Chile, and other various countries.

Their fascist government would never allow western technology there. High standards of living can never exist in a communist country (Unless your idea of a decent life involves working like a dog for the same pay as a fast food waiter or a janitor and coming home to a crappy excuse for an apartment where the government is watching you 25/8).

That's untrue. Even in the strictest military dictatorships in the 20th century, Western technology spread since it was available. Sure, their governments tried to outlaw it, but that didn't stop many people. I'd encourage you to read about Portugal's dictatorship, Spain's, Chile's, and South Korea's. All were recent, and can show you what will happen to Cuba if it undergoes economic growth.

[Teemant]

Their fascist government would never allow western technology there. High standards of living can never exist in a communist country (Unless your idea of a decent life involves working like a dog for the same pay as a fast food waiter or a janitor and coming home to a crappy excuse for an apartment where the government is watching you 25/8).

That's untrue. Even in the strictest military dictatorships in the 20th century, Western technology spread since it was available. Sure, their governments tried to outlaw it, but that didn't stop many people. I'd encourage you to read about Portugal's dictatorship, Spain's, Chile's, and South Korea's. All were recent, and can show you what will happen to Cuba if it undergoes economic growth.

Western technology may not come with western content.

[Fortschritte]

Well, when the economy grows, access to goods also grow. Ergo, Cubans would find more western movies, computers, and all those goodies that may encourage them to support greater democracy. But, I'd argue that my more important point was that economic growth almost always translates to more demand for economic and political rights. As a middle class grows, and as people become wealthier and more educated, it's natural for them to question authority and their position in society.

How are they going to find more western movies if they are not being sold? They might have computers but it doesn't change internet freedoms or Cuba will greate their own network without rest of the world.
And internet access is another topic because right now Cuban goverment worker gets 5 dollars per week but using internet cafe costs 10 dollars. Only their political elite would benefit from lifting sanctions.

They would be sold? It's as simple as that, really. You pro embargo folks act as if the Castro government will be able to effectively ensure that no Cubans have access to any western goods.

[Communist Volkstrad]

For one, explain how that would hurt the US economy.

Secondly, it would actually make it harder for Castro to suppress his people. Throughout history, particularly recent history, military regimes and dictatorships that underwent economic growth saw the fall of their dictators. This is because economic growth allows for greater access to information, greater access to "Western goods", and as standards of living rise, people begin to demand more political and economic rights. It happened in South Korea, Chile, and other various countries.

Their fascist government would never allow western technology there. High standards of living can never exist in a communist country (Unless your idea of a decent life involves working like a dog for the same pay as a fast food waiter or a janitor and coming home to a crappy excuse for an apartment where the government is watching you 25/8).

That is a gross misuse of the word Fascist. They are Authoritarian, but far from Fascist. Fascism is a Far-Right ideology.

They can exist, but haven't thus far. In a Socialist(Technically what the "communist" nations of the past claimed to be.) country, standards of living could potentially be much higher than in a Capitalist nation.

You're definition of Socialism and Communism is Stalinism, from what I can see. The majority of Socialists disagree with you.

[Fortschritte]

That's untrue. Even in the strictest military dictatorships in the 20th century, Western technology spread since it was available. Sure, their governments tried to outlaw it, but that didn't stop many people. I'd encourage you to read about Portugal's dictatorship, Spain's, Chile's, and South Korea's. All were recent, and can show you what will happen to Cuba if it undergoes economic growth.

Western technology may not come with western content.

That doesn't even address my post...

But, moving on, yes, it generally does. Explain your position, and why western technologies don't give people more access to western things.

[Teemant]

How are they going to find more western movies if they are not being sold? They might have computers but it doesn't change internet freedoms or Cuba will greate their own network without rest of the world.
And internet access is another topic because right now Cuban goverment worker gets 5 dollars per week but using internet cafe costs 10 dollars. Only their political elite would benefit from lifting sanctions.

They would be sold? It's as simple as that, really. You pro embargo folks act as if the Castro government will be able to effectively ensure that no Cubans have access to any western goods.

How they can have access to western goods if it isn't available in Cuba. They (regime) control what is brought into Cuba and what is not.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

They would be sold? It's as simple as that, really. You pro embargo folks act as if the Castro government will be able to effectively ensure that no Cubans have access to any western goods.

How they can have access to western goods if it isn't available in Cuba. They (regime) control what is brought into Cuba and what is not.

Because nearly every other western country trades with them besides the US?

[Fortschritte]

They would be sold? It's as simple as that, really. You pro embargo folks act as if the Castro government will be able to effectively ensure that no Cubans have access to any western goods.

How they can have access to western goods if it isn't available in Cuba. They (regime) control what is brought into Cuba and what is not.

That's not how economics works, bub. You act as if Cuba is a tropical North Korea, that doesn't trade with anybody. You act as if the people may one day overthrow the Castro's because of the embargo.

[Teemant]

Western technology may not come with western content.

That doesn't even address my post...

But, moving on, yes, it generally does. Explain your position, and why western technologies don't give people more access to western things.

I'm assuming that you're talking about devices like computers which use internet. It isn't impossible to create seperate internet which isn't connected to the rest of the world. In this way goverment can control what people are reading and watching in internet because they only create the content.

[Teemant]

How they can have access to western goods if it isn't available in Cuba. They (regime) control what is brought into Cuba and what is not.

Because nearly every other western country trades with them besides the US?

Have you ever heard about people who work as customs officers?

[The Nuclear Fist]

How are they going to find more western movies if they are not being sold?

The same way people in North Korea and China get access: the black market.

[CTALNH]

I believe that, until Cuba transitions into a free-market democracy, there should be no let up of sanctions.

Obama is making a really bad mistake.

Yes how dare the Cubans hold onto their national sovereignty and not sell their country out and do the bidding of the glorious imperium americanum?