US/Cuba to Begin Talks

[Olivaero]

Man this reminds of when France did pretty much the exact same thing to Haiti
man Haiti sure is a shithole
I wonder why

Should I tell you why?

Because Haitis best years was when it was under French rule. It was a prosperous island with a high economy. Haitians did not learn how to run their country so they went how they went. At least they could be thankfull to the French people for cultivating the country. Since Haitis independence the land was becoming through time even more poor.

It was also y'know a slave state but hey who cares! Some french citizens who happened to live on Haiti were rich so it was a good time for haiti!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I got an idea
I'll take more money from you than you currently make
and we'll see just how much you prosper

It depens. Did you investeted in my education, housing and food?

If yes, than I owe you something. That is why some firms gave stipendium to poor but hard working students. It is a deal.

That's like saying Mexico owned to Spain anything simply because they colonized Mexico.

Which if you knew better that's a ton of bullshit.

[The Black Forrest]

You do realize this revolution happened by the 50s.

Yes, and crimes do not go just so unpunished. Cuba does not have to give money but insread give the them a property in Cuba instead.

Hmmm. Does that mean we should give back the land to the aboriginals?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You do realize this revolution happened by the 50s.

Yes, and crimes do not go just so unpunished. Cuba does not have to give money but insread give the them a property in Cuba instead.

So I guess that what the United States did in Latin America should be punished?

How much are you willing to take out of your pocket for reparations,cause you got a lot to pay for down there.

[The Black Forrest]

Yea, well, I'm not perfect on analogies

Also, the reason why I say the United States could give a fuck less is mostly because the United States has always taken what they wanted anyhow, so why is it that now Cubans in the United States are so surprised to hear that the United States is opening relations with Cuba again? .

The US has not stolen anything from Cuba. It was quite the opposite America liberated from Spanish rule and gave it freedom. It is Americas first born child and it has responsibility for it. So, that exaplains why does hurt that actually Cuba became communist. America has a responsibility for Cuba to make it a better place as it can.

If Obama does it Miami will become a republican stronghold and that is not in the interest of progressives

No it won't.

[Kubra]

Surely you don't mean the same Haiti in which slaves got tired of their bad treatment at the hands of the French national minority and ended up murdering them in what was akin to genocide of the ruling class.

You dont seem to be familar with Haiti. The French government after experincing revolution decided to abolish slavery. At that point the former slaves went on rapand genocide. But hey Kharma is bitch, now they ended as they did.

You are, of course, leaving out the bit where Napoleon reinstates slavery in law and sends 20,000 french troops to Haiti to back up its reinstatement.

I got an idea
I'll take more money from you than you currently make
and we'll see just how much you prosper

It depens. Did you investeted in my education, housing and food?

If yes, than I owe you something. That is why some firms gave stipendium to poor but hard working students. It is a deal.

I don't know, did the French?
As far as I am aware, education was a matter given only to French citizens, housing was a largely private market, and food was mostly locally grown, often by the slaves themselves.
Really, are you serious? Do you really mean to say that slaves kept at the barest of existence ought to be thankful to their previous owners, who could simply flee to Paris when the goings got tough? That's str8 up gusano logic, bro.

[Eastern Equestria]

It is Americas first born child and it has responsibility for it.

Would you please stop with this Manifest Destiny bullcrap?

The concept of Westphalian sovereignty is one of the pillars of modern day international relations. America has no responsibility for Cuba.

Yeah, seriously. That attitude is the biggest reason why Cuba cut off ties with the U.S. after the rise of Castro's regime. It's just extremely unfortunate that Castro also decided to turn Cuba into an authoritarian shithole with a failed socialist economy.

[Banderia]

Yea, by doing nothing, sticking their head in the sand, and hoping that the Cuban government goes down when it hasn't done so in half a century..

Which is a logicall step as the then Cuban govenrment was illegitimate and did not represented its people. It was a guerilla junta that came to power by force. I would personally agree if the roles were vice versa, if some radical political sects came through civil war at the top of US government, Cuba should have a moral duty to impose embargo on the said government.

Also, stop with the parrochial bullshit. We both know that it wasn't some kind of "oh my God! Cuba is communist! I am sad!". The reason was that we felt insulted and acted like bullies that when their victim stands up they end up going "wah! They stood up to me! Wah! You meanie!"

I think you should talk to older Americans and Cubans about that issue. Cuba was not just another country, there was a emotional bound between the two countries (compared like with Russia, Ukraine and Belarus today). The people of both countries had contact to each others so yes many Cubans and Americans were sad. There is also historical reason as Washingtong always considered Cuba as something part of America as it gave it freedom and independence from Spanish rule. Cuba was from begining a America project so we took it very emotional.

And plase how to we bullied Cuba? Do you know that Cuba was one of the richest countries on the world prior to the Revolution? It Was Cuba that always benefited from the USA. The Cubans were tricked by Castro as he denied that his movement was communist.

The Cuban embargo and us cutting all diplomacy with Cuba was fucking pointless back then and it is fucking pointless now. The fact people think this is something so crucial for Cuba to fail and if we lift the embargo we'll end up failing are 50 years behind now.

No it was not pointless as the Cuban emigre and American refugee from Cuba wanted it.

[Banderia]

[

They abolished it a tad too late for that matter. Which is why the rampant genocide happened.

When was the right time?

The French gave the slaves a hand of freedom by abolishing slavery and they genocide them instead.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yea, by doing nothing, sticking their head in the sand, and hoping that the Cuban government goes down when it hasn't done so in half a century..

Which is a logicall step as the then Cuban govenrment was illegitimate and did not represented its people. It was a guerilla junta that came to power by force. I would personally agree if the roles were vice versa, if some radical political sects came through civil war at the top of US government, Cuba should have a moral duty to impose embargo on the said government.

Also, stop with the parrochial bullshit. We both know that it wasn't some kind of "oh my God! Cuba is communist! I am sad!". The reason was that we felt insulted and acted like bullies that when their victim stands up they end up going "wah! They stood up to me! Wah! You meanie!"

I think you should talk to older Americans and Cubans about that issue. Cuba was not just another country, there was a emotional bound between the two countries (compared like with Russia, Ukraine and Belarus today). The people of both countries had contact to each others so yes many Cubans and Americans were sad. There is also historical reason as Washingtong always considered Cuba as something part of America as it gave it freedom and independence from Spanish rule. Cuba was from begining a America project so we took it very emotional.

And plase how to we bullied Cuba? Do you know that Cuba was one of the richest countries on the world prior to the Revolution? It Was Cuba that always benefited from the USA. The Cubans were tricked by Castro as he denied that his movement was communist.

The Cuban embargo and us cutting all diplomacy with Cuba was fucking pointless back then and it is fucking pointless now. The fact people think this is something so crucial for Cuba to fail and if we lift the embargo we'll end up failing are 50 years behind now.

No it was not pointless as the Cuban emigre and American refugee from Cuba wanted it.

Yes, the Cuban government was so representative of it's people. Oh wait...:

Fulgencio Batista, who had served as the elected President of Cuba from 1940 to 1944, became President for the second time in March 1952, after seizing power in a military coup and cancelling the 1952 elections. Although Batista had been a relative progressive during his first term, in the 1950s he proved far more dictatorial and indifferent to popular concerns. While Cuba remained plagued by high unemployment and limited water infrastructure, Batista antagonized the population by forming lucrative links to organised crime and allowing American companies to dominate the Cuban economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Revolution

Stop lying through your teeth and read a history book. Castro was no more communist than Arbenz, meaning they were more nationalists than communists. And you just said that the U.S. saw Cuba as its project. Nice way to refer to something you had SO MUCH sentimental value.<snort>

It was fucking pointless. Just because the populace wanted it doesn't mean that was the reason it happened. The U.S. were actually just pissy about the whole thing.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

[

They abolished it a tad too late for that matter. Which is why the rampant genocide happened.

When was the right time?

The French gave the slaves a hand of freedom by abolishing slavery and they genocide them instead.

Mind, they didn't genocide all the French, they killed all former slave owners. Which seems like poetic justice.

[Banderia]

That's like saying Mexico owned to Spain anything simply because they colonized Mexico.

Which if you knew better that's a ton of bullshit.

Spain gave Mexico the languages, cities and cultures. On top of that it had no problem when Mexico was seceding.

The same applies to the US. You know we did not invented democracy, law and so on. We got it from the English common law. Also, from the British which were also our Founding fathers.

[The Wolven League]

I'm glad, this is a huge step for Cuba and the US

[Banderia]

Yes, and crimes do not go just so unpunished. Cuba does not have to give money but insread give the them a property in Cuba instead.

So I guess that what the United States did in Latin America should be punished?

How much are you willing to take out of your pocket for reparations,cause you got a lot to pay for down there.

First tell what we exactly did to Latin America. We protected the people from bolshevism. We defeated the Nazis who could easily in an alternative history went on conquiring Latin America. We invested in the economy of some countries.

[Kubra]

We protected the people from bolshevism. We defeated the Nazis who could easily in an alternative history went on conquiring Latin America.

A perfect example of counterproductivity, if there ever was one.

[Banderia]

You are, of course, leaving out the bit where Napoleon reinstates slavery in law and sends 20,000 french troops to Haiti to back up its reinstatement.

Blatant lie.

I don't know, did the French?

Yes, they did. Haiti was a hellhole before the French brought civilisation.

As far as I am aware, education was a matter given only to French citizens, housing was a largely private market, and food was mostly locally grown, often by the slaves themselves.

And that all dont change the fact that the French liberated the slaves after they thanked by genociding them. Not all blacks were slaves on Haiti.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

So I guess that what the United States did in Latin America should be punished?

How much are you willing to take out of your pocket for reparations,cause you got a lot to pay for down there.

First tell what we exactly did to Latin America. We protected the people from bolshevism. We defeated the Nazis who could easily in an alternative history went on conquiring Latin America. We invested in the economy of some countries.

How cute that you don't recall almost half a century of bullshit you gave Latin America and why the perception of the United States by people down there is that you're a bunch of hypocrites. To bring another opinion I made in another thread, the CIA being assholes under the U.S. Government's authorization isn't anything new, Latin Americans have known this for years. If you think that the United States ever gave a shit about Latin America because "oh poor Latin Americans" it's time you wake up.

You didn't save anyone from bolshevism, you pretty much shat all over people and then pretended you were doing a just cause while everyone in those countries went on and had civil wars anyways to get rid of the ton of shit dictators and juntas that were your legacy. Stop thinking that you're some kind of savior here because you're not, you had no problems with El Salvador juntas, the Somoza dictatorship, and Pinochet seemed not to concern you as long as we were kissing the ass of the United States.

You invested in nothing. If anything you invited us to do free trade treaties, that's different. But you didn't go into a country and said "hey we'll invest in your economy" without getting something you wanted, so stop acting all altruistic.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

That's like saying Mexico owned to Spain anything simply because they colonized Mexico.

Which if you knew better that's a ton of bullshit.

Spain gave Mexico the languages, cities and cultures. On top of that it had no problem when Mexico was seceding.

The same applies to the US. You know we did not invented democracy, law and so on. We got it from the English common law. Also, from the British which were also our Founding fathers.

Oh really?! Seems you either:

1. Have never picked up a history book
2. Are just being willfully obtuse.

Right, the British were our Founding Fathers, how much do you think we should pay them? After all we should be kissing the Queen's ass right now according to you.

[Banderia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Revolution

Stop lying through your teeth and read a history book. Castro was no more communist than Arbenz, meaning they were more nationalists than communists. And you just said that the U.S. saw Cuba as its project. Nice way to refer to something you had SO MUCH sentimental value.<snort>

It was fucking pointless. Just because the populace wanted it doesn't mean that was the reason it happened. The U.S. were actually just pissy about the whole thing.

Batista was democratically elected in 1940. I wont deny he became a dictator in 1952 but at least he was elected democratically unlike Castro.

Cuba prospered under his rule while under Castro rule it is a poor hellhole, that is what you lefties is hurting you the most. Yes, I am a bit sentimental for my personal reasons.

[Fortschritte]

You are, of course, leaving out the bit where Napoleon reinstates slavery in law and sends 20,000 french troops to Haiti to back up its reinstatement.

Blatant lie.

I don't know, did the French?

Yes, they did. Haiti was a hellhole before the French brought civilisation.

As far as I am aware, education was a matter given only to French citizens, housing was a largely private market, and food was mostly locally grown, often by the slaves themselves.

And that all dont change the fact that the French liberated the slaves after they thanked by genociding them. Not all blacks were slaves on Haiti.

I'm sorry, but what the hell are you rambling about? Haiti is currently a hellhole, and Haiti can thank colonialism for that. Your historical revisionism in favor of brutal colonialism and slavery is not appreciated.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Yeah, seriously. That attitude is the biggest reason why Cuba cut off ties with the U.S. after the rise of Castro's regime. It's just extremely unfortunate that Castro also decided to turn Cuba into an authoritarian shithole with a failed socialist economy.

It is still better administrated historically than most of Central America and the Caribbean, though.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Revolution

Stop lying through your teeth and read a history book. Castro was no more communist than Arbenz, meaning they were more nationalists than communists. And you just said that the U.S. saw Cuba as its project. Nice way to refer to something you had SO MUCH sentimental value.<snort>

It was fucking pointless. Just because the populace wanted it doesn't mean that was the reason it happened. The U.S. were actually just pissy about the whole thing.

Batista was democratically elected in 1940. I wont deny he became a dictator in 1952 but at least he was elected democratically unlike Castro.

Cuba prospered under his rule while under Castro rule it is a poor hellhole. Yes, I am a bit sentimental for my personal reasons.

That doesn't matter, his policy was atrocious and literally made Cuba a United States' puppet.

And why is it that you have so much sentimentalism? It's not like this is the 1950s. The 50s and 60s are gone, and I doubt you were alive back then to even be all "oh my God, nooo! Why Cuba, why?!"

[Soldati Senza Confini]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Revolution

Stop lying through your teeth and read a history book. Castro was no more communist than Arbenz, meaning they were more nationalists than communists. And you just said that the U.S. saw Cuba as its project. Nice way to refer to something you had SO MUCH sentimental value.<snort>

It was fucking pointless. Just because the populace wanted it doesn't mean that was the reason it happened. The U.S. were actually just pissy about the whole thing.

Batista was democratically elected in 1940. I wont deny he became a dictator in 1952 but at least he was elected democratically unlike Castro.

Cuba prospered under his rule while under Castro rule it is a poor hellhole, that is what you lefties is hurting you the most. Yes, I am a bit sentimental for my personal reasons.

Let me give you a clue here: I am not a leftist.

If you think I am a leftist, not at all, but I also don't see why the United States is seen as some sort of virtue paragon when it isn't. We're pragmatic, we'll do something if it seems advantageous for us to do so to protect our interests. You can thank Kissinger for that.

I'm not arguing that this is good or bad, simply that this being such a shock is kind of impressive given the nature of our foreign policy which is our interests come first, fuck morals. Under that mindset, it makes sense that the U.S. wants to open relations with Cuba again.

[Roski]

The only real talks we should be having is US Marines landing on the beaches.

I'm sorry, but I find these random dictatorships such as Iran and Cuba and Venezuela to be jokes, why don't we just finish them off one by one?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The only real talks we should be having is US Marines landing on the beaches.

I'm sorry, but I find these random dictatorships such as Iran and Cuba and Venezuela to be jokes, why don't we just finish them off one by one?

And then give Latin America more of a reason to cut ties with the United States since we're not respecting national sovereignty?

No thanks, this is only going to give Latin America more ammunition to actually distrust the United States, and that's the last thing we want, to lose our political hegemony.

Unless, you're also willing to actually make an American empire out of the whole continent and prove that we're no better than these dictatorships. Which would be par for the course, I mean we have proven not to be better than China already.