US/Cuba to Begin Talks

[The Royally United Provinces]

A mommy nation and her rebellious child making up. It brings a tear to my eye. Get me a tissue please.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm against the US lifting the embargo on Cuba, it may not work- but point is that Cuba never intends to provide any compensation for the foreign owned property that was nationalized in their 1959 revolution and no nation has the right to trade with the US if the US decides that they aren't doing business with certain governments.

Neither the US or Cuba need the other, both nations have plenty of other trading partners. The US isn't missing out on anything spectacular in choosing not to trade with Cuba. Only Cuba would primarily benefit from the embargo being lifted.

Except, what if our purpose is not to enhance economic ties but strengthen our security hegemony in the Western Hemisphere?

Under that light, we'll give Cuba what they want and even lift the embargo if we have to. Establishing relations with Cuba will help us with keeping Russia out of our backyard and we can just dump a small fraction of our exports into Cuba, which is a win-win for us since our companies have a new market.

The time of actually treating Latin America as our playground is pretty much over, they've proven that they're not Communist ally potential like we thought back in the 70s and 80s. In fact I'd say it's a good thing this is happening because keeping Cuba as allies and the rest of Latin America seeing that we're turning a new page is going to be advantageous for us since it keeps Russia confined where it belongs.

[L Ron Cupboard]

So the conservative view point seems to be that America is better off having Cuba as an enemy in their backyard, rather than as an ally and depriving Russia and/or China of an ally in the region.

[Eastern Equestria]

I agree. But Cuba is still a fucking shitty place to live for all but those in the upper echelons of its communist party.

Oh indeed, I never disputed that.

I'm just saying the United States opening relations with Cuba isn't surprising from any angle, we were going to have to do it sooner or later, if not out of the war hawks becoming irrelevant and people seeing the embargo is fucking pointless, it was going to be out of pragmatist politics to preserve our national security interests abroad (which would also come to the conclusion that the embargo is fucking pointless).

I agree. The embargo is painfully hypocritical.

[Nickel Empire]

This is good, now I won't have to worry about getting arrested with Cuban goods when I go to Cuba next year and go back to Canada, if the embargo is lifted by then.

[Penguin Union Nation]

Cuba is a complete mess of a country, but I thought the convenient practice of essentially pretending that they didn't exist was immature and opening relations might actually help that nation move forward.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

So the conservative view point seems to be that America is better off having Cuba as an enemy in their backyard, rather than as an ally and depriving Russia and/or China of an ally in the region.

Exactly.

Besides, why help the general population when the US can continue to punish the island's leadership which constitutes a small percentage of the population?*

(*Indeed, sarcasm.)

[Saiwania]

Except, what if our purpose is not to enhance economic ties but strengthen our security hegemony in the Western Hemisphere?

Under that light, we'll give Cuba what they want and even lift the embargo if we have to. Establishing relations with Cuba will help us with keeping Russia out of our backyard and we can just dump a small fraction of our exports into Cuba, which is a win-win for us since our companies have a new market.

Knowing Cuba, they'd accept the embargo ending while taking up Russia's offers. Why bother? Russia only has less than half of the population of the US and is declining. Russia is increasingly going to become a has been but they don't know it yet. I don't see Putin's progress as lasting after he is gone. So I don't take Russia as a serious threat anymore in terms of their non-nuclear capabilities, it is all about China now.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Except, what if our purpose is not to enhance economic ties but strengthen our security hegemony in the Western Hemisphere?

Under that light, we'll give Cuba what they want and even lift the embargo if we have to. Establishing relations with Cuba will help us with keeping Russia out of our backyard and we can just dump a small fraction of our exports into Cuba, which is a win-win for us since our companies have a new market.

Knowing Cuba, they'd accept the embargo ending while taking up Russia's offers. Why bother? I don't take Russia as a serious threat anymore in terms of their non-nuclear capabilities, it is all about China now.

Assuming that the only thing they can do is send nukes at us is a pretty narrow view, honestly.

Cuba might be self-interested, but not stupid. They allied with Russia since the United States literally told Fidel Castro to fuck off, which is what started the Cuban Missile Crisis to begin with, because we literally pissed off Castro and he sought help from the Soviet government back then. Nowadays the embargo is painfully stupid and pointless because other countries do trade with Cuba and because Cuba isn't isolated, most of Central America and the Caribbean have diplomatic relations with them already, heck even Mexico does and furthermore we're doing business with communist regimes already so the whole communist excuse is pointless.

So the entire concept of "oh no we shouldn't lift the embargo" is fucking pointless in every practical way. We have no reason to keep it, and we're shooting ourselves in the foot by not having Cuba as an ally since that raises a red flag for our security operations.

[The Seleucids (Ancient)]

Point is that what you say isn't a "Cuban" thing, its the case almost everywhere.

That's nice. Doesn't change the fact that Cuba is the country with the least political freedom in the Western Hemisphere by a considerable margin.

So?

[Eastern Equestria]

That's nice. Doesn't change the fact that Cuba is the country with the least political freedom in the Western Hemisphere by a considerable margin.

So?

So?

That makes them exceptionally horrid compared to the rest of the Western Hemisphere, making it an issue that's almost exclusively a "Cuban thing" on this half of the planet. Even when compared to the entire world, Cuba is still among the worst of the worst in that regard.

[Eastern Equestria]

I'd hardly call Cuba a failed nation.

From Wiki:

HDI (Human Development Index, 2013) Steady 0.815 (out of 100)
Ranked: very high · 44th

Just a teensy weensy little correction: steady 0.815 out of 1.0, right?

I would love to see Cuba's inequality-adjusted HDI standing.

^This

If plain old HDI is all we're judging by, then we could say that the U.S. contains less socioeconomic disparity than Sweden or Canada.

[Geilinor]

I like this, it's time to start negotiating to improve relations.

[Skinia]

Just a teensy weensy little correction: steady 0.815 out of 1.0, right?

I would love to see Cuba's inequality-adjusted HDI standing.

^This

If plain old HDI is all we're judging by, then we could say that the U.S. contains less socioeconomic disparity than Sweden or Canada.

Exactly. That is why IHDI is so much more accurate than just the plain ol' HDI.

[The balkens]

Finally.

[The Emerald Dragon]

The Daily Mail comments boards are exploding with...

"A christmas gift from one Commie to another"

and other crap.

[Geilinor]

Just a teensy weensy little correction: steady 0.815 out of 1.0, right?

I would love to see Cuba's inequality-adjusted HDI standing.

^This

If plain old HDI is all we're judging by, then we could say that the U.S. contains less socioeconomic disparity than Sweden or Canada.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/inequality-adjusted-hdi They don't have an inequality-adjusted figure calculated, so Cuba remains at 44th.

[Zakuvia]

Yes, but it's politically poisonous to bring up relaxing the embargo. Any move towards that is seen as being in support of the old ghosts of the Cold War. That being said, maybe one of Obama's goals could be getting it done. It's not as if he's not given a morning wake-up call with a bagel, some coffee, and a recording of Ted Cruz calling him a communist. Honestly, he can't get any worse in the eyes of Tea Party and hardline Republican candidates, but relaxing the embargo has strong popular support, if not Beltway.

[Greater Mackonia]

Castro has gone soft. Not that I am a Communist, I just oppose any increase in American influence on the world.

[Beta Test]

This is massive news. Thanks Obama!

[Imyoji]

About time, it was expected.

[Eastern Equestria]

^This

If plain old HDI is all we're judging by, then we could say that the U.S. contains less socioeconomic disparity than Sweden or Canada.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/inequality-adjusted-hdi They don't have an inequality-adjusted figure calculated, so Cuba remains at 44th.

It's HDI is 44th. The ranking in that list is based off of regular HDI. Cuba would undoubedtly be much lower on a list of countries ranked by their IHDI.

[Geilinor]

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/inequality-adjusted-hdi They don't have an inequality-adjusted figure calculated, so Cuba remains at 44th.

It's HDI is 44th. The ranking in that list is based off of regular HDI. Cuba would undoubedtly be much lower on a list of countries ranked by their IHDI.

The link says "inequality-adjusted".

[The balkens]

Obama is showing weakness!

i wish he had done it earlier but better late than never. this way his action on cuba--we're setting up an embassy!--wont put democrats at a disadvantage in an election.

Surely Republicans wont vote for a Democrat now that we open up relations with a Communist country.

Wait.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Obama's Spanish is adorable.

"Toddos sobos, americaubdos"