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(USA) A Conservative Case for Universal Health Coverage

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Republic of Coldwater
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Postby Republic of Coldwater » Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:16 am

You mean that Singapore, which outspends the US in private healthcare has terrible health coverage? A government system not only bankrupts a nation, but hurts competition and lower prices. The reason for shitty, expensive healthcare in America is due to the lack of competition, as insurers have basically no competition. As a result, they make the decision to give you shit healthcare and high costs, but when competition happens, a company must get that customer by having the highest quality for the lowest costs without operating at a loss, and that results in lower costs for the consumer.
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Chestaan
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Postby Chestaan » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:40 am

Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?



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Colbert Super PAC
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Postby Colbert Super PAC » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:46 am

Rhodisia wrote:Hello NSG, Rhodisia here. I describe myself as a social conservative, but see some very clear arguments for universal health coverage. This thread is intended to encourage debate and the free exchange of ideas regarding healthcare. Here is my conservative case for universal health coverage:

You're a conservative? Sounds more like you're some kind of pinko commie who's pretending to be a conservative to make the rest of us look bad.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:05 am

Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?


I love it when you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Murkwood
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Postby Murkwood » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:14 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?


I love it when you have no idea what you're talking about.

So, all the time? :p
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:15 am

Murkwood wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
I love it when you have no idea what you're talking about.

So, all the time? :p


It sure seems like it :lol:

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Fortschritte
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Postby Fortschritte » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:05 am

Republic of Coldwater wrote:You mean that Singapore, which outspends the US in private healthcare has terrible health coverage? A government system not only bankrupts a nation, but hurts competition and lower prices. The reason for shitty, expensive healthcare in America is due to the lack of competition, as insurers have basically no competition. As a result, they make the decision to give you shit healthcare and high costs, but when competition happens, a company must get that customer by having the highest quality for the lowest costs without operating at a loss, and that results in lower costs for the consumer.


Bullshit. Singapore has Universal Healthcare.
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Tamoi
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Postby Tamoi » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:45 am

Rhodisia wrote:2. The current American mindset with healthcare is penny-wise and dollar-foolish.
...- but at the same time, we allow ourselves, our children, and our elderly to get sick and die from entirely curable diseases. It is far better to plan for 40 or 50 years down the line, when the next generation of Americans are in power, and we're old and fat and sick and need a doctor, ...

That is entirely natural.

3. We have certain religious and moral imperatives to take care of our own citizens - including the poor, the elderly, the disabled and the mentally unstable.

Absolutely not! I strongly believe it is most immoral to take care of them - people should be entirely self-sufficient, and if one fails to do so let nature take care of them.

I don't have much of a problem with other people believing and practicing otherwise, but what I do have a problem with is being forced to participate. I don't take medicines. My friends and our families reject modern medicine, and will not receive any treatment.

There should be a way to opt-out for any reason. To make it fair, there should be no way to opt back in, so only people who are serious about it would opt-out.
O for a small and weakly populated country,
Though they may know of machines which could do the work of ten or a hundred men,
They do not use them,
They know the pertinence of death,
And they do not travel far,
Though they may know of boats and cars,
They have no use for them,
Though they may have armour and weapons,
They do not brandish them.

Let people return to measurement with knotted ropes,
That their food should be plain but they relish it,
Their clothes simple but durable,
They find their homes safe and secure,
And they find their customs forfilling.

Though they might be so close to the next town as to hear their dogs barking and cocks crowing,
They content themselves in leaving the other be.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:49 am

The discovery of microorganisms causing disease and the importance of this discovery is often overlooked.

We are at war, my friends. War with trillions and trillions of little fuckers.
They've got the biggest body count on us in history.
Were this another human nation the idea of privatizing this war and leaving every person to fend for themselves against the invaders would be fucking treasonous.
What's more, there can be no negotiation.
There can be no peace. Only extermination. Our enemy is without fear or favor, without malice, and truly alien to us.

Death to the xeno-threat!!! :p

Down with the xeno-loving conservative dogma!
TOTAL WAR TIEM!
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tamoi
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Postby Tamoi » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:00 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:The discovery of microorganisms causing disease and the importance of this discovery is often overlooked.

We are at war, my friends. War with trillions and trillions of little fuckers.
They've got the biggest body count on us in history.
Were this another human nation the idea of privatizing this war and leaving every person to fend for themselves against the invaders would be fucking treasonous.
What's more, there can be no negotiation.
There can be no peace. Only extermination. Our enemy is without fear or favor, without malice, and truly alien to us.

Death to the xeno-threat!!! :p

Down with the xeno-loving conservative dogma!
TOTAL WAR TIEM!

:rofl:
Ok, that was well done.


Hey, the grouse eat the bunchberries, I eat the grouse, and the bacteria eat me. I don't see it as a war, but as a predator-prey relationship. I'm not going to stop eating cattails or woodchucks, and if I expect to remain in this ecosystem I've got to fill all my roles là. Deer are just as dependent on coyotes as coyotes are on deer.
O for a small and weakly populated country,
Though they may know of machines which could do the work of ten or a hundred men,
They do not use them,
They know the pertinence of death,
And they do not travel far,
Though they may know of boats and cars,
They have no use for them,
Though they may have armour and weapons,
They do not brandish them.

Let people return to measurement with knotted ropes,
That their food should be plain but they relish it,
Their clothes simple but durable,
They find their homes safe and secure,
And they find their customs forfilling.

Though they might be so close to the next town as to hear their dogs barking and cocks crowing,
They content themselves in leaving the other be.

-The 80th Chapter of the Tao Te Ching

http://nomadicvillage.wordpress.com/

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Old Tyrannia
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:15 am

Vazdaria wrote:Are you quite certain you're conservative? :eyebrow: Because you sound very liberal.

Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?

The above posters believe Otto von Bismarck was a liberal socialist. Suddenly the fact that I usually agree with the above posters fills me with shame and disappointment.

Conservatism is about preserving traditions and a traditional, rooted way of life. It's about scepticism towards idealism and favouring gradual reform rather than revolution. It doesn't say anywhere that you have to believe people dying of curable diseases should be allowed to die if they can't pay for expensive treatment in order to qualify as a conservative.
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Murkwood
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Postby Murkwood » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:05 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Vazdaria wrote:Are you quite certain you're conservative? :eyebrow: Because you sound very liberal.

Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?

The above posters believe Otto von Bismarck was a liberal socialist. Suddenly the fact that I usually agree with the above posters fills me with shame and disappointment.

Conservatism is about preserving traditions and a traditional, rooted way of life. It's about scepticism towards idealism and favouring gradual reform rather than revolution. It doesn't say anywhere that you have to believe people dying of curable diseases should be allowed to die if they can't pay for expensive treatment in order to qualify as a conservative.

That's rather...strong. What's wrong with being wary of stepping stones to full-out Socialism, enemy of Conservatism?

Also, Bismarck was a dick. Like, a huge dick.
Last edited by Murkwood on Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

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Fortschritte
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Postby Fortschritte » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:07 am

Murkwood wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:
The above posters believe Otto von Bismarck was a liberal socialist. Suddenly the fact that I usually agree with the above posters fills me with shame and disappointment.

Conservatism is about preserving traditions and a traditional, rooted way of life. It's about scepticism towards idealism and favouring gradual reform rather than revolution. It doesn't say anywhere that you have to believe people dying of curable diseases should be allowed to die if they can't pay for expensive treatment in order to qualify as a conservative.

That's rather...strong. What's wrong with being wary of stepping stones to full-out Socialism, enemy of Conservatism?


I fail to understand why you're so god damn stubborn in your insistence that universal healthcare is socialism. You haven't explained why it's a stepping stone to full out socialism, and every other developed, capitalist country has universal healthcare. You've made the claim that universal healthcare is a stepping stone to socialism countless times, but you run away when you're asked to explain why. Hopefully, you can stop being blinded by ideological stubbornness, and accept the objective, blatant fact that universal healthcare is almost universally accepted as a necessity in a capitalist country.
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Murkwood
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Postby Murkwood » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:12 am

Fortschritte wrote:
Murkwood wrote:That's rather...strong. What's wrong with being wary of stepping stones to full-out Socialism, enemy of Conservatism?


I fail to understand why you're so god damn stubborn in your insistence that universal healthcare is socialism. You haven't explained why it's a stepping stone to full out socialism, and every other developed, capitalist country has universal healthcare. You've made the claim that universal healthcare is a stepping stone to socialism countless times, but you run away when you're asked to explain why. Hopefully, you can stop being blinded by ideological stubbornness, and accept the objective, blatant fact that universal healthcare is almost universally accepted as a necessity in a capitalist country.

It's a slippery slope. If you nationalize one major sector of the economy for the greater good, it'll be much easier to do it the next time.
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

Catholicism has the fullness of the splendor of truth: The Bible and the Church Fathers agree!

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Fortschritte
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Postby Fortschritte » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:13 am

Murkwood wrote:
Fortschritte wrote:
I fail to understand why you're so god damn stubborn in your insistence that universal healthcare is socialism. You haven't explained why it's a stepping stone to full out socialism, and every other developed, capitalist country has universal healthcare. You've made the claim that universal healthcare is a stepping stone to socialism countless times, but you run away when you're asked to explain why. Hopefully, you can stop being blinded by ideological stubbornness, and accept the objective, blatant fact that universal healthcare is almost universally accepted as a necessity in a capitalist country.

It's a slippery slope. If you nationalize one major sector of the economy for the greater good, it'll be much easier to do it the next time.


That's entirely fallacious and irrational. Have countries such as the UK, Switzerland, and Canada nationalized large swathes of the economy after implementing universal healthcare? No, of course not. If anything, they've privatized more sectors of the economy.
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Republic of Coldwater
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Postby Republic of Coldwater » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:30 am

Fortschritte wrote:
Republic of Coldwater wrote:You mean that Singapore, which outspends the US in private healthcare has terrible health coverage? A government system not only bankrupts a nation, but hurts competition and lower prices. The reason for shitty, expensive healthcare in America is due to the lack of competition, as insurers have basically no competition. As a result, they make the decision to give you shit healthcare and high costs, but when competition happens, a company must get that customer by having the highest quality for the lowest costs without operating at a loss, and that results in lower costs for the consumer.


Bullshit. Singapore has Universal Healthcare.

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtuXrrEZsAg shows that Singapore has a 66% private healthcare spending. Singapore mainly has a savings system, and as far as I can see, you basically save up for a situation, and you spend that saved money, which is different than many traditional universal systems.
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Fortschritte
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Postby Fortschritte » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:32 am

Republic of Coldwater wrote:
Fortschritte wrote:
Bullshit. Singapore has Universal Healthcare.

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtuXrrEZsAg shows that Singapore has a 66% private healthcare spending. Singapore mainly has a savings system, and as far as I can see, you basically save up for a situation, and you spend that saved money, which is different than many traditional universal systems.


Yes, because it's a public private partnership. Which works well, because Singapore is a city state. But, to say that Singapore's healthcare is anything but universal, and not heavily, heavily regulated by the government is silly.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:38 am

Murkwood wrote:It's a slippery slope. If you nationalize one major sector of the economy for the greater good, it'll be much easier to do it the next time.


I knew it was your typical Gilded Age bullshit.

Not surprised.
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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:46 am

Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?

lol

Murk, you might want to adopt an approach that works, regardless of ideology. If you have empirical evidence that an entirely private model works, present it.

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:54 am

Kelinfort wrote:
Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?

lol

Murk, you might want to adopt an approach that works, regardless of ideology. If you have empirical evidence that an entirely private model works, present it.


No no no, see, I think I get it now.

Murk is an example of the kind of shit we hear on the media everyday, seems logical that he keeps on doing so so we're more able to spot bullshit when we hear it/read it.

<pause>

Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

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Romalae
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Postby Romalae » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:55 am

I don't understand why some posters in this thread are jumping down the OP's throat for being a conservative and holding a non-traditionally conservative position. I think it's commendable that someone has seen past their ideological categorization and objectively analyzed an issue. It's what we all should do, rather than simply fall in line with all the positions of our respective political party/group/ideology.

The case for universal healthcare is strong, and we need more people to look past all this fearmongering from Fox News and right wing talk radio about "OMG SOCIALIZED MEDICINE" and realize its merits and efficacy.
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The Sons of Adam
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Postby The Sons of Adam » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:02 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:Everything that is not total collapse into dog-eat-dog capitalism and the Guilded Age era is basically socialist, according to you.

Image

Absolutely evil!


China's doing ok, I guess.

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Fortschritte
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Postby Fortschritte » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:03 am

The Sons of Adam wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Image

Absolutely evil!


China's doing ok, I guess.


Countries with universal healthcare are doing better.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:03 am

What's wrong with free private healthcare through a comprehensive voucher system? That way we have competition AND affordability, not one or the other.
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Fortschritte
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Postby Fortschritte » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:03 am

Arkolon wrote:What's wrong with free private healthcare through a comprehensive voucher system? That way we have competition AND affordability, not one or the other.


Why should healthcare be competitive? What makes private healthcare inherently better than public healthcare?
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