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(USA) A Conservative Case for Universal Health Coverage

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Korintar
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Founded: Nov 19, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Korintar » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:45 pm

Rhodisia wrote:Hello NSG, Rhodisia here. I describe myself as a social conservative, but see some very clear arguments for universal health coverage. This thread is intended to encourage debate and the free exchange of ideas regarding healthcare. Here is my conservative case for universal health coverage:

1. The current healthcare system, as it stands, is woefully inefficient. It's a national shame that we allow this system to perpetuate.

As a percentage of GDP, we outspend every other country on healthcare through private insurers, then again in government programs like Medicare and Medicaid, but our quality of healthcare is shameful - especially pursuant to treatable and preventable conditions. We consistently fall behind Canada, a country with universal coverage and our proverbial "little brother", in three crucial areas: in quality of care, in accessibility, and in cost. This is also true in almost all European countries. Think about it: we're a world power, and we're three hundred million strong, but we can't even make sure our citizens recover from illnesses? That is ridiculous, and the fact that we as Americans allow this to continue is shameful.

2. The current American mindset with healthcare is penny-wise and dollar-foolish.

Going back to 1776, the entire American Revolution started because of taxes. We as a nation clearly don't like taxes - but at the same time, we allow ourselves, our children, and our elderly to get sick and die from entirely curable diseases. It is far better to plan for 40 or 50 years down the line, when the next generation of Americans are in power, and we're old and fat and sick and need a doctor, than to worry about short-term ROI and taxes. I for one would much rather be taxed slightly higher than to worry about my future regarding health coverage.

3. We have certain religious and moral imperatives to take care of our own citizens - including the poor, the elderly, the disabled and the mentally unstable.

If some of my fellow American conservatives relentlessly insist that America is a Christian nation (which it isn't), then whatever happened to Ephesians 4:32? You know, "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you?" If anything, the current attitude of calling universal health coverage "communism" is Gluttony - wanting to constantly stuff your face, but never leaving anything for the disadvantaged segments of society. If we continue to call ourselves a Christian nation, then I think it is better that we start living to some of those ideals. That, and the fact that allowing our citizens to die from lack of medical attention is morally wrong.

4. Economies of scale inherently favor a single-payer system.

Any socioeconomic institution benefits from having a larger number of participants rather than few. Healthcare is no exception to this economic law.

5. A single-payer system would reduce the number of government personnel needed to administer it - thus keeping the government from expanding.

Even when accounting for population differences, Canada - which has had a single-payer system since 1984 - still has fewer government personnel administering the funds necessary to provide universal health coverage. Compare that to the US, where our patchwork system of private insurers, Medicare, Obamacare and other laws make it very unruly to administer - for coverage that still doesn't reach our most vulnerable citizens.

You sound more like what I would call a "Euro-con," a European-style, intellectually honest, skeptical conservative- the kind I can respect, even if we probably have our disagreements. We need more people like you and fewer people like Mitt Romney, John McCain, Rand Paul, or Paul Ryan in this country.
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Benuty
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:48 pm

Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?

You what sir?
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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Founded: Feb 12, 2014
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:48 pm

Brunsk wrote:I thoroughly agree. I do not think you are as conservative as you think you are.

It's a terrible ideology regardless.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

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Tribal Germania (Ancient)
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Founded: Dec 02, 2014
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Postby Tribal Germania (Ancient) » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:49 pm

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Tribal Germania wrote:So, Rhodisia is an ultra-liberal? Doesn't seem like it.

:rofl: Get real

You keep using the word fascist as meaning anything you don't like, but you often agree with fascism on some points. I was using hyperbole to call you out on your exaggeration of how liberal Rhodisia is. You're as fascist as I am, we agree on some points and disagree on others with fascism.

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:49 pm

:lol:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Brunsk wrote:I thoroughly agree. I do not think you are as conservative as you think you are.

It's a terrible ideology regardless.


Trust me, old conservatives are not conservative enough nowadays, we're right-leaning, not deep-right.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Emerald-Springs
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Founded: Apr 01, 2014
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Emerald-Springs » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:49 pm

Korintar wrote:You sound more like what I would call a "Euro-con," a European-style, intellectually honest, skeptical conservative- the kind I can respect, even if we probably have our disagreements. We need more people like you and fewer people like Mitt Romney, John McCain, Rand Paul, or Paul Ryan in this country.


I'd call him a classical, pre-secularisation Christian democrat, simply because his views are communitarian rather than individualist or collectivist, and religiously-inspired. But in any case, I agree, more like him are needed.

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Rhodisia
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Founded: Sep 27, 2014
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Postby Rhodisia » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:53 pm

Emerald-Springs wrote:I'd call him a classical, pre-secularisation Christian democrat, simply because his views are communitarian rather than individualist or collectivist, and religiously-inspired. But in any case, I agree, more like him are needed.

Rhodisia wrote:I am a "weak atheist". I simply do not see enough of a reason to recognize the existence of God - instead of strongly believing that it does not exist.
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Pro: Sortition, gold standard, small and efficient government, concise laws, community policing, responsible private gun ownership, school choice, absolutely free market, low taxes, net neutrality, press freedom, etc

Against: Dynasties, fiat currency, excessive bureaucracy, verbose laws, police militarization, gun control, state-only education, crony capitalism, high taxes, net non-neutrality, censorship, empire, etc
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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:53 pm

Tribal Germania wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote: :rofl: Get real

You keep using the word fascist as meaning anything you don't like, but you often agree with fascism on some points. I was using hyperbole to call you out on your exaggeration of how liberal Rhodisia is. You're as fascist as I am, we agree on some points and disagree on others with fascism.

How many fascists on this forum would agree that, out of the general NSG userbase, little ultra-leftist libertarian me is one to be specially close to their viewpoints on life, philosophy, politics and human nature? :unsure:

No, Rhodisia wouldn't be ultra-liberal, because I wouldn't be ultra-fascist. We have nothing or statistically negligible amounts of the mentioned ideologies.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

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Murkwood
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Founded: Apr 05, 2014
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Postby Murkwood » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:00 pm

Fortschritte wrote:
Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?


Oh, give me a break. You know well that universal healthcare isn't socialism. That's a load of malarkey.

It's one step too far.
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

Catholicism has the fullness of the splendor of truth: The Bible and the Church Fathers agree!

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:01 pm

Murkwood wrote:
Fortschritte wrote:
Oh, give me a break. You know well that universal healthcare isn't socialism. That's a load of malarkey.

It's one step too far.


Everything that is not total collapse into dog-eat-dog capitalism and the Guilded Age era is basically socialist, according to you.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Emerald-Springs
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Founded: Apr 01, 2014
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Emerald-Springs » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:02 pm

Rhodisia wrote:
Emerald-Springs wrote:I'd call him a classical, pre-secularisation Christian democrat, simply because his views are communitarian rather than individualist or collectivist, and religiously-inspired. But in any case, I agree, more like him are needed.

Rhodisia wrote:I am a "weak atheist". I simply do not see enough of a reason to recognize the existence of God - instead of strongly believing that it does not exist.


I hope you'll forgive my mistake. You did, after all, quote Scripture and appeal to transcendental values when making your case.

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Rhodisia
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Founded: Sep 27, 2014
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Postby Rhodisia » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:05 pm

Tribal Germania wrote:You keep using the word fascist as meaning anything you don't like, but you often agree with fascism on some points. I was using hyperbole to call you out on your exaggeration of how liberal Rhodisia is. You're as fascist as I am, we agree on some points and disagree on others with fascism.


Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:How many fascists on this forum would agree that, out of the general NSG userbase, little ultra-leftist libertarian me is one to be specially close to their viewpoints on life, philosophy, politics and human nature? :unsure:

No, Rhodisia wouldn't be ultra-liberal, because I wouldn't be ultra-fascist. We have nothing or statistically negligible amounts of the mentioned ideologies.


Personal foul, targeting: defense, number 29. 15-yard penalty, automatic first down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro: Sortition, gold standard, small and efficient government, concise laws, community policing, responsible private gun ownership, school choice, absolutely free market, low taxes, net neutrality, press freedom, etc

Against: Dynasties, fiat currency, excessive bureaucracy, verbose laws, police militarization, gun control, state-only education, crony capitalism, high taxes, net non-neutrality, censorship, empire, etc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Founded: Feb 12, 2014
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:05 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Murkwood wrote:It's one step too far.

Everything that is not total collapse into dog-eat-dog capitalism and the Guilded Age era is basically socialist, according to you.

Image

Absolutely evil!
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

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Murkwood
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Posts: 7806
Founded: Apr 05, 2014
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Postby Murkwood » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:07 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Murkwood wrote:It's one step too far.


Everything that is not total collapse into dog-eat-dog capitalism and the Guilded Age era is basically socialist, according to you.

No, but this is.
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

Catholicism has the fullness of the splendor of truth: The Bible and the Church Fathers agree!

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:07 pm

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:Everything that is not total collapse into dog-eat-dog capitalism and the Guilded Age era is basically socialist, according to you.

Image

Absolutely evil!


Wait, wait, wait...

We're FUNDING Afghan and Iraqi Universal Coverage and we don't have any?!

Now that's one step too fucking far!
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Founded: Feb 12, 2014
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:08 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:Wait, wait, wait...

We're FUNDING Afghan and Iraqi Universal Coverage and we don't have any?!

Now that's one step too fucking far!

I always told you people it's absolutely fucking silly to continue voting Republican! Why didn't you listen?

It's happening. :P
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

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Communist Volkstrad
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Posts: 6878
Founded: Oct 22, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Communist Volkstrad » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:09 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Image

Absolutely evil!


Wait, wait, wait...

We're FUNDING Afghan and Iraqi Universal Coverage and we don't have any?!

Now that's one step too fucking far!

This.
I'm not actually a communist.

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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:15 pm

Rhodisia wrote:
Tribal Germania wrote:You keep using the word fascist as meaning anything you don't like, but you often agree with fascism on some points. I was using hyperbole to call you out on your exaggeration of how liberal Rhodisia is. You're as fascist as I am, we agree on some points and disagree on others with fascism.


Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:How many fascists on this forum would agree that, out of the general NSG userbase, little ultra-leftist libertarian me is one to be specially close to their viewpoints on life, philosophy, politics and human nature? :unsure:

No, Rhodisia wouldn't be ultra-liberal, because I wouldn't be ultra-fascist. We have nothing or statistically negligible amounts of the mentioned ideologies.


Personal foul, targeting: defense, number 29. 15-yard penalty, automatic first down.

And HetRio to boot - the lot of you. Back on topic, stop picking at one another, thanks.

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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Founded: Feb 12, 2014
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:18 pm

I understood neither Rhodisia's post nor DLN's. :blink:

Okay then. :?
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

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Patridam
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Founded: May 24, 2012
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Postby Patridam » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:26 pm

As economically conservative as I am, I do agree with universal healthcare. Though I can certainly see why people call it socialist in nature, I think it's worth it.

Obamacare was quite literally the worst way to go about it, or attempt at it more like. I personally experienced the poor website, the misscommunication between myself, the goverment, and the insurance company; and the insurance company going everything in its power to f*ck me (and presumably the government, too) over six ways to Sunday. Now, the premiums are going up by $70 but the subsidy isn't, and I really can't afford it.

Still, we wouldn't be in this situation if it weren't for the totally ridiculous cost of healthcare in the US. Ideally, healthcare could be cheap enough that insurance would be unnecessary or rather cheap, but I don't see that happening, unfortunately.
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Rhodisia
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Founded: Sep 27, 2014
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Postby Rhodisia » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:30 pm

Emerald-Springs wrote:
I hope you'll forgive my mistake. You did, after all, quote Scripture and appeal to transcendental values when making your case.

It's fine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro: Sortition, gold standard, small and efficient government, concise laws, community policing, responsible private gun ownership, school choice, absolutely free market, low taxes, net neutrality, press freedom, etc

Against: Dynasties, fiat currency, excessive bureaucracy, verbose laws, police militarization, gun control, state-only education, crony capitalism, high taxes, net non-neutrality, censorship, empire, etc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Olivaero
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Founded: Jun 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Olivaero » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:32 pm

Murkwood wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
Everything that is not total collapse into dog-eat-dog capitalism and the Guilded Age era is basically socialist, according to you.

No, but this is.

How do you define Socialism? because your clearly using a completely different definition to any socialist who actually exists.
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Toronina
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Founded: Oct 06, 2011
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Postby Toronina » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:22 pm

The current healthcare system is like it is at the moment, because the republicans couldn't be nice enough to treat the bill with respect.
Now I'm back in the ring to take another swing

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Zakuvia
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Postby Zakuvia » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:26 pm

The hilarious thing about Republicans (I won't call them conservatives) complaining about Universal Healthcare is that they patently support it...as long as it's called Tricare, the military medical insurer. It covers servicemembers, and the vast majority of their families in damned near free healthcare. True, one could say, it's just a military benefit that's earned in service and payments, but the concept of it could very easily be adopted to the civilian sector.
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Brickistan
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Postby Brickistan » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:39 am

Sunarctica wrote:Why can't the United States' government just decrease their Defense Budget massively, establish a system of Universal Healthcare, and relocate that spending towards the new healthcare system? Privatized healthcare is horridly inefficient.


Two issues...

Firstly, it would be political suicide. Americans are far more concerned about the non-existing threat of <insert bad guy of the month here> than their fellow citizens.

Secondly, reducing defense spending would paradoxically result in an economical downturn. There are a lot of people involved in the defense industry, both within the army itself and within those companies supplying the army, and cutting those loose would see a rather large increase in unemployment.

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