Abortion: Humane or not?

[Ostroeuropa]

Ah, but in this instance it is your child. And your child has the right to use your resources.

Why?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

That's a possible consquence, sure.
It'd need to be handled very delicately, and maybe i'm wrong, I just think we'd be better off dropping the "they aren't people" part of our arguments.

To be quite honest the only reason why I keep bringing up that fetuses are not people is because of the defense people make for the contrary, that is, people thinking they are people.

A fetus is a developing human cell, but that doesn't mean said human cell canot undergo different changes and end up no viable, see fetus in fetu and other diseases (including rH rejection) that happen in development.

[Vazdaria]

Doctors shouldn't have the right to kill a developing human being either.

That's too bad. They do under certain circumstances.

I don't see how anyone could be okay with medically unnecessary abortion. Its completely inhumane.

[Mavorpen]

That's too bad. They do under certain circumstances.

Well, that's very cold and dehumanizing of you.

That's nice.

[Vazdaria]

Ah, but in this instance it is your child. And your child has the right to use your resources.

Why?

They are your responsibility and neglect of them could lead to your incarceration.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's a possible consquence, sure.
It'd need to be handled very delicately, and maybe i'm wrong, I just think we'd be better off dropping the "they aren't people" part of our arguments.

To be quite honest the only reason why I keep bringing up that fetuses are not people is because of the defense people make for the contrary, that is, people thinking they are people.

A fetus is a developing human cell, but that doesn't mean said human cell canot undergo different changes and end up no viable, see fetus in fetu and other diseases (including rH rejection) that happen in development.

mmm, at the very least, I think there is room for significant progress if we push the idea that you can be pro-abortion and still think fetuses are people.
It opens up a whole wave of potential converts who may viscerally reject the idea of fetuses not being people, but stick around to here the rationale that allows abortion anyway if they are people.
By presenting the pro-choice movement as one that
HAS NO POSITION (or rather, covers both.)
On the personhood of fetuses, we'll be better off. It'll mean they can't hit us on that issue and we can just discuss bodily autonomy and tell them to piss off to a theology and personhood debate if they bring up the other shit

[Mavorpen]

That's too bad. They do under certain circumstances.

I don't see how anyone could be okay with medically unnecessary abortion. Its completely inhumane.

The same way I can be okay with people consuming meat.

[Allentyr]

That's too bad. They do under certain circumstances.

Well, that's very cold and dehumanizing of you.

He doesn't give a shit ^^

[Soldati Senza Confini]

A developing human being whose life cannot be independent of the mother's biologically isn't even worth considering in an abortion or medical science.

That's like saying "the life of the black man is not worth protecting" you're dehumanizing the developing child!

They have no humanity to begin with.

They are human, but what makes us human, or our humanities, are an entirely different thing than merely the fact we're human cells of the family homo sapiens sapiens.

The life of the black man is important, they are an agent in the real world where consequences happen. They are both human and have humanity and full control of their capacities as a human being.

Fetuses do not.

[Camelza]

And red apples are red.

So?

So, youve no right to kill a developing human being unless it poses a threat to the life of the mother.

This is a despicable appeal to emotion through the use of the term "human being" that has nothing to do with the justification, or condemnation of abortions.

[Vazdaria]

To be quite honest the only reason why I keep bringing up that fetuses are not people is because of the defense people make for the contrary, that is, people thinking they are people.

A fetus is a developing human cell, but that doesn't mean said human cell canot undergo different changes and end up no viable, see fetus in fetu and other diseases (including rH rejection) that happen in development.

mmm, at the very least, I think there is room for significant progress if we push the idea that you can be pro-abortion and still think fetuses are people.
It opens up a whole wave of potential converts who may viscerally reject the idea of fetuses not being people, but stick around to here the rationale that allows abortion anyway if they are people.
By presenting the pro-choice movement as one that
HAS NO POSITION (or rather, covers both.)
On the personhood of fetuses, we'll be better off.

Then you'd basically be arguing that its totally okay to kill humans.

[Galloism]

I don't see how anyone could be okay with medically unnecessary abortion. Its completely inhumane.

The same way I can be okay with people consuming meat.

When I was young, I once bit off and ate the end of my own fingernail.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's like saying "the life of the black man is not worth protecting" you're dehumanizing the developing child!

They have no humanity to begin with.

They are human, but what makes us human, or our humanities, are an entirely different thing than merely the fact we're human cells of the family homo sapiens sapiens.

The life of the black man is important, they are an agent in the real world where consequences happen. They are both human and have humanity and full control of their capacities as a human being.

Fetuses do not.

I could take seriously the notion that they are merely apes and not humans because a human is a memetic entity which rides on the brain of an ape after infecting it from nearby sources.

But that just makes it an animal rights issue.

[Camelza]

That's like saying "the life of the black man is not worth protecting" you're dehumanizing the developing child!

They have no humanity to begin with.

They are human, but what makes us human, or our humanities, are an entirely different thing than merely the fact we're human cells of the family homo sapiens sapiens.

The life of the black man is important, they are an agent in the real world where consequences happen. They are both human and have humanity and full control of their capacities as a human being.

Fetuses do not.

In other words, a black man is a person, a fetus is not.

[Allentyr]

Why?

They are your responsibility and neglect of them could lead to your incarceration.

Ah, but only when the child is born. Fetuses aren't born yet, so too bad.

[Mavorpen]

mmm, at the very least, I think there is room for significant progress if we push the idea that you can be pro-abortion and still think fetuses are people.
It opens up a whole wave of potential converts who may viscerally reject the idea of fetuses not being people, but stick around to here the rationale that allows abortion anyway if they are people.
By presenting the pro-choice movement as one that
HAS NO POSITION (or rather, covers both.)
On the personhood of fetuses, we'll be better off.

Then you'd basically be arguing that its totally okay to kill humans.

Yes, it is totally okay to perform actions that unfortunately lead to the death of humans but protect the liberties of others. We do it all the time when we go to war over grave injustices.

[Ostroeuropa]

mmm, at the very least, I think there is room for significant progress if we push the idea that you can be pro-abortion and still think fetuses are people.
It opens up a whole wave of potential converts who may viscerally reject the idea of fetuses not being people, but stick around to here the rationale that allows abortion anyway if they are people.
By presenting the pro-choice movement as one that
HAS NO POSITION (or rather, covers both.)
On the personhood of fetuses, we'll be better off.

Then you'd basically be arguing that its totally okay to kill humans.

If they are violating your bodily autonomy?
Go fucking nuts. I'll hand you a knife.

Nicer if you can arrest them ofcourse, or remove them if they have no active malice, but spilled milk and all that.

[Mavorpen]

The same way I can be okay with people consuming meat.

When I was young, I once bit off and ate the end of my own fingernail.

You monster.

[Sanctissima]

They are your responsibility and neglect of them could lead to your incarceration.

Ah, but only when the child is born. Fetuses aren't born yet, so too bad.

You see, you're a prime example of why most pro-lifers think that pro-choicers are heartless savages.

Kudos.

[Dyakovo]

So charge every woman who miscarries with manslaughter.
*nods*

Nonsense, she didn't intentionally miscarry.

Manslaughter doesn't require intent. Their body caused the loss of life, so clearly they should be charged with manslaughter.

[Ostroeuropa]

Then you'd basically be arguing that its totally okay to kill humans.

Yes, it is totally okay to perform actions that unfortunately lead to the death of humans but protect the liberties of others. We do it all the time when we go to war over grave injustices.

This, pretty much.

[Jamzmania]

Consent where it CAN be obtained.

Doctors don't throw up their arms and declare that we can't do anything, the patient is unconscious, I guess he'll just bleed out.
Further, siamese twins example again.
The consent of the parents is sufficient.

In which case the mother can consent to an abortion in her person fetus' stead. That is indeed quite simple.

A mother of a newborn doesn't have the right to give consent to kill that newborn when it is perfectly healthy.

[Mavorpen]

Ah, but only when the child is born. Fetuses aren't born yet, so too bad.

You see, you're a prime example of why most pro-lifers think that pro-choicers are heartless savages.

Kudos.

I don't think the heartless savages are the ones that don't put women on the level of livestock.

[Dyakovo]

mmm, at the very least, I think there is room for significant progress if we push the idea that you can be pro-abortion and still think fetuses are people.
It opens up a whole wave of potential converts who may viscerally reject the idea of fetuses not being people, but stick around to here the rationale that allows abortion anyway if they are people.
By presenting the pro-choice movement as one that
HAS NO POSITION (or rather, covers both.)
On the personhood of fetuses, we'll be better off.

Then you'd basically be arguing that its totally okay to kill humans.

Yes.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

They have no humanity to begin with.

They are human, but what makes us human, or our humanities, are an entirely different thing than merely the fact we're human cells of the family homo sapiens sapiens.

The life of the black man is important, they are an agent in the real world where consequences happen. They are both human and have humanity and full control of their capacities as a human being.

Fetuses do not.

In other words, a black man is a person, a fetus is not.

I could have said that, but I couldn't pass the chance to do that long-winded response