Abortion: Humane or not?

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Anybody can be a misogynist (male or female). Anybody who wishes to impose a patriarchal system or wants to infringe a woman's rights is a misogynist.

... I don't remember you being this progressive when it comes to gender issues. Did you change your views recently, or am I mistaken? Just a comment.

[Esternial]

Survive on its own?
You mean around the age of 6?


Not a commentary on the subject at hand, I'm just not sure you meant what you wrote...

An abortion is taking the cells out in such a way that the cells die, yes?
If the cells have developed to the point that the cells are viable then aborting it seems to be a waste.

Which would be after 22 weeks. Before that time the woman should know she's pregnant and be able to take the necessary steps to undergo an abortion and not be stalled until it's too late.

Actually, it wouldn't be a waste. I don't know to what extent, but embryos can be used for research purposed. Stem cell research actually relies on terminating embryos, but fewer people seem to whine about that, it seems..

[Luminesa]

I'm probably the hated majority, but despite not enjoying or wanting abortions, I would totally like a fetal specimen. I mean, I also want skeletons and bones.
I'm so fucking ridiculously into this creepy ass shit, if I were to get pregnant and the fetus mutated beyond viability I would want to preserve it.

If it mutated beyond viability, sure. It's a tad...weird, but as long as you don't purposely let a viable fetus grow just so you can abort and display it in a jar it seems like a legit, albeit odd, thing to collect.

This is all disgusting. Displaying a dead child in a jar, rather than giving them a proper funeral, is inhumane.

[Skinia]

Its barbaric.

I don't think it is barbaric. I think it's rather civilized to allow abortions.

[Kelinfort]

What about women who are against abortion? Or are you just ignoring groups that disagree with you so that your moronic blanket dichotomy holds up?

Who says women can't be misogynistic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly

Why didn't we listen to Dorothy about the Wicked Witch of the West?

[Ashmoria]

Its barbaric.

so much of life is barbaric. why should abortion be different?

[Ostroeuropa]

Humane?
pfff...
Acceptable.
It's a morally neutral act.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Is killing humane? If it isn't, abortion isn't.

Abortion is when you end the life of a would-be human. You may not be killing a living thing, but you are killing something that would otherwise be a living, breathing human, and from that, you are effectively murdering a human, which makes it inhumane and simply immoral.

[Ostroeuropa]

Is killing humane? If it isn't, abortion isn't.

Abortion is when you end the life of a would-be human. You may not be killing a living thing, but you are killing something that would otherwise be a living, breathing human, and from that, you are effectively murdering a human, which makes it inhumane and simply immoral.

Presumably you are completely in favor of banning all kinds of behaviours that kill potential persons.
Like most industries, for example. Anything that pollutes, the justice system...

[Ostroeuropa]

Donating your organs is a morally good act by most peoples measure.

But they dont regard deciding not to donate your organs as a bad one. Merely a neutral one. It's the same for abortion, or it should be.
Yes, it would be awfully decent of the person to just bite the bullet and carry to term/donate the organs to save a life.
But they aren't exactly under obligation to do so, and why should they be?
Liberty is as important as life. More important perhaps, hence all the wars to achieve it.

[Ashmoria]

Is killing humane? If it isn't, abortion isn't.

Abortion is when you end the life of a would-be human. You may not be killing a living thing, but you are killing something that would otherwise be a living, breathing human, and from that, you are effectively murdering a human, which makes it inhumane and simply immoral.

we kill things all the time. there are humane ways and inhumane ways.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

People like to confuse babies with blobs of cells.

Blobs of cells are not people - thus they don't have rights - and not entitled to occupy the living space of non-consenting people - thus can be removed at will, doesn't matter the consequences.

Why did the thread continue past this point...?

[Republic of Coldwater]

Is killing humane? If it isn't, abortion isn't.

Abortion is when you end the life of a would-be human. You may not be killing a living thing, but you are killing something that would otherwise be a living, breathing human, and from that, you are effectively murdering a human, which makes it inhumane and simply immoral.

Presumably you are completely in favor of banning all kinds of behaviours that kill potential persons.
Like most industries, for example. Anything that pollutes, the justice system...

I oppose the death penalty as it is an archaic and barbaric practice that is detrimental to more than one person. The problem is that these industries are necessary for the economical wellbeing of any world, and that without these, perhaps more people will die of impoverishment and malnourishment from lower amounts of purchasing power and productivity. In contrast, abortion kills an innocent human being whilst giving little gain to the person who aborted.

[Ostroeuropa]

People like to confuse babies with blobs of cells.

Blobs of cells are not people - thus they don't have rights - and not entitled to occupy the living space of non-consenting people - thus can be removed at will, doesn't matter the consequences.

Why did the thread continue past this point...?

It's largely irrelevant, and counter productive to argue whether or not a fetus is a human.
I'm of the opinion that it's more beneficial to confer it with legal rights and such so we can prosecute people for injuring the pregnant person and causing a miscarriage.

You can't win an argument over whether it's human or not. It's a matter of semantics.
What you CAN do is show that even if it is human, it's still perfectly within the pregnant persons rights to assert their bodily autonomy and demand the removal.
MORESO even.

If it's just a cluster of cells and the pregnant person is there demanding they be removed, the doctors would be well within their rights to say "no, fuck off, it's an unnecessary proceedure. It'll fix itself in 9 months anyway."
You can't just run up to your doctor and demand random medical procedures "Because autonomy."

But if it's a PERSON in there and the pregnant person demands it be removed, that's a different matter.
To fail to do so would be to violate their rights by allowing a continued violation of their bodily autonomy by another person.

A cluster of cells cannot be violating your rights.
A person can.

You can't run up to a doctor and demand he remove a carrot you ate because you changed your mind and it's violating your bodily autonomy.
People would look at you like you're crazy
Because objects cannot violate rights. Continuously denying that fetuses are human undermines our own argument imo.

[Dyakovo]

Circumstance...
<snip> you DID make your choice (If you had the choice) to have sex<snip>.

Immatterial. Having sex is not a guarantee of pregnancy, nor is consent to sex consent to pregnancy.

[Dyakovo]

What happens when an unwanted "artificial womb baby" is born? Shovel 'em straight to the adoption home? Maybe make a tube that just dispenses them there?

They'd go to adoption of course. Or further development may be possible in a similar state to the artificial womb. This far ahead into a theoretical future, perhaps they'd grow up in simulation which may have it's own ethics involved.

I dislike how so many people hate on adoption and idealize abortion. The only things that may be a problem with it would be where the money comes from to support the life. But maybe that wouldn't be an issue if we didn't stuff so much cash in the pockets of profit centered prisons. Jail time is given out far too freely and often in all the wrong places with Copy Right often being harsher than more serious crimes.
Edit: Referencing the US.

Forcing there to be even more children wallowing in the foster care system is not a good thing.

[Kilobugya]

Is killing humane? If it isn't, abortion isn't.

Abortion is when you end the life of a would-be human. You may not be killing a living thing, but you are killing something that would otherwise be a living, breathing human, and from that, you are effectively murdering a human, which makes it inhumane and simply immoral.

So is all contraception, because it ends the life of a would-be human ? And so is abstinence ? So every man and woman who doesn't reproduce when they physically could are murderers ?

And what now that we have cloning ? Is letting a cell fall from your skin or head without cloning it into a new human murder because it "ends the life of a would-be human" ?

[Esternial]

If it mutated beyond viability, sure. It's a tad...weird, but as long as you don't purposely let a viable fetus grow just so you can abort and display it in a jar it seems like a legit, albeit odd, thing to collect.

This is all disgusting. Displaying a dead child in a jar, rather than giving them a proper funeral, is inhumane.

Fetus. Not child. If you want to add some unnecessary emotional connotation to a fetus that's your prerogative.

[Dyakovo]

If it mutated beyond viability, sure. It's a tad...weird, but as long as you don't purposely let a viable fetus grow just so you can abort and display it in a jar it seems like a legit, albeit odd, thing to collect.

This is all disgusting. Displaying a dead child foetus in a jar, rather than giving them a proper funeral using it to further scientific research, is inhumane.

Ftfy

[Sanctissima]

Personally, I oppose it, with the exception of two circumstances:

1 - Life or severe bodily harm endangerment: Since you can't really expect someone to sacrifice or endanger oneself for the sake of another.

2 - Rape: Since the sex wasn't consented to, the pregnant woman shouldn't be expected to have to go through with the pregnancy.

Otherwise, the right of the unborn child to life takes precedence over the woman's right to her body. My reasons are as follows:

-Given that the pregnancy was a result of consensual sex, the woman was aware that pregnancy could be a result of unprotected sex. If she really didn't want to get pregnant, she could have just asked her partner to use a condom.
-Although the unborn child is, as far as we know, incapable of thought, it still has the right to live. The potential mother not wanting to experience 9 months of pregnancy does not constitute a sufficient reason to deprive the unborn child of this most basic right.
-If the pregnant woman really just doesn't want to be a mother, after childbirth, she could simply put the child up for adoption. Although living in an orphanage isn't an ideal scenario for a young child, it's still better than the alternative: death.

[Firsthome]

Personally, I oppose it, with the exception of two circumstances:

1 - Life or severe bodily harm endangerment: Since you can't really expect someone to sacrifice or endanger oneself for the sake of another.

2 - Rape: Since the sex wasn't consented to, the pregnant woman shouldn't be expected to have to go through with the pregnancy.

Otherwise, the right of the unborn child to life takes precedence over the woman's right to her body. My reasons are as follows:

-Given that the pregnancy was a result of consensual sex, the woman was aware that pregnancy could be a result of unprotected sex. If she really didn't want to get pregnant, she could have just asked her partner to use a condom.
-Although the unborn child is, as far as we know, incapable of thought, it still has the right to live. The potential mother not wanting to experience 9 months of pregnancy does not constitute a sufficient reason to deprive the unborn child of this most basic right.
-If the pregnant woman really just doesn't want to be a mother, after childbirth, she could simply put the child up for adoption. Although living in an orphanage isn't an ideal scenario for a young child, it's still better than the alternative: death.

I am similar, although if the child is to be born with a debilitating disease, or the parents can't afford to raise a child, I would also allow an abortion.

I don't Like when people get abortions "Because it would ruin my figure" or "I just don't want to" although those people probably shouldn't have kids anyways.

[Ashmoria]

Personally, I oppose it, with the exception of two circumstances:

1 - Life or severe bodily harm endangerment: Since you can't really expect someone to sacrifice or endanger oneself for the sake of another.

2 - Rape: Since the sex wasn't consented to, the pregnant woman shouldn't be expected to have to go through with the pregnancy.

Otherwise, the right of the unborn child to life takes precedence over the woman's right to her body. My reasons are as follows:

-Given that the pregnancy was a result of consensual sex, the woman was aware that pregnancy could be a result of unprotected sex. If she really didn't want to get pregnant, she could have just asked her partner to use a condom.
-Although the unborn child is, as far as we know, incapable of thought, it still has the right to live. The potential mother not wanting to experience 9 months of pregnancy does not constitute a sufficient reason to deprive the unborn child of this most basic right.
-If the pregnant woman really just doesn't want to be a mother, after childbirth, she could simply put the child up for adoption. Although living in an orphanage isn't an ideal scenario for a young child, it's still better than the alternative: death.

let's consider point 2 for a moment....

what proof would be required of a woman who wants an abortion because it is the result of rape?

[Sanctissima]

Personally, I oppose it, with the exception of two circumstances:

1 - Life or severe bodily harm endangerment: Since you can't really expect someone to sacrifice or endanger oneself for the sake of another.

2 - Rape: Since the sex wasn't consented to, the pregnant woman shouldn't be expected to have to go through with the pregnancy.

Otherwise, the right of the unborn child to life takes precedence over the woman's right to her body. My reasons are as follows:

-Given that the pregnancy was a result of consensual sex, the woman was aware that pregnancy could be a result of unprotected sex. If she really didn't want to get pregnant, she could have just asked her partner to use a condom.
-Although the unborn child is, as far as we know, incapable of thought, it still has the right to live. The potential mother not wanting to experience 9 months of pregnancy does not constitute a sufficient reason to deprive the unborn child of this most basic right.
-If the pregnant woman really just doesn't want to be a mother, after childbirth, she could simply put the child up for adoption. Although living in an orphanage isn't an ideal scenario for a young child, it's still better than the alternative: death.

I am similar, although if the child is to be born with a debilitating disease, or the parents can't afford to raise a child, I would also allow an abortion.

I don't Like when people get abortions "Because it would ruin my figure" or "I just don't want to" although those people probably shouldn't have kids anyways.

I agree with you about debilitating disease, although I suppose it depends on the definition of "debilitating", since this tends to be open for interpretation.

I'm a little bit iffy on the poverty reason though, since there's always orphanages (or foster homes). I know that's less than ideal, but personally, I think it's better to at least give the child a chance at life.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Is killing humane? If it isn't, abortion isn't.

Abortion is when you end the life of a would-be human. You may not be killing a living thing, but you are killing something that would otherwise be a living, breathing human, and from that, you are effectively murdering a human, which makes it inhumane and simply immoral.

Humans and bananas share many similar genetic similarities, if there were some pretty cool mutations to go on in a banana it could be really, really similar to people. So honestly every time you eat a banana it effectively means you are eating a human being.

[Galloism]

Is killing humane? If it isn't, abortion isn't.

Abortion is when you end the life of a would-be human. You may not be killing a living thing, but you are killing something that would otherwise be a living, breathing human, and from that, you are effectively murdering a human, which makes it inhumane and simply immoral.

Humans and bananas share many similar genetic similarities, if there were some pretty cool mutations to go on in a banana it could be really, really similar to people. So honestly every time you eat a banana it effectively means you are eating a human being.

It's more likely than you think.