Abortion: Humane or not?

[Luminesa]

Killing said child, however developed it is, could result in damage, both physical and mental to the mother, as well as endanger her life. Regardless of whether you believe you are in fact are killing a child, you are preventing it from living. That is death. I do not believe that it is ethically, morally or medically sound.

Preventing something from coming alive is not death, but nonexistence. Me not impregnating your sister does not kill our potential child - it prevents it from existing.

The primary debate people often have about abortion is when the fetus stops being a clump of cells and becomes a person. Some say immediately after conception. Some say when it acquires the capacity to experience things; to dream and feel. And some say not before it is born.

The secondary debate is which right weighs heavier: the mothers right to decide what to do with her own body, or the fetus supposed right to be allowed to become a baby.
Or, if you are a Biblical literalist - the husbands right to determine how much value to ascribe to the unborn child; in which case both the rights of the fetus and the woman are considered non-existent.

1.) A dead thing can't grow. That baby is definitely living.

2.) True. But science does say life begins at conception, so...

3.) I dunno about it being a Biblical literalist, I think it's more of...well...it takes two to tango. The mom and the dad should have equal say, but the problem is the guy is often shut out when he wants to keep the baby. So no, the rights of the fetus and the dad are rendered non-existent...

[Mavorpen]

Bullshit. It's meant to heal. Medicine doesn't have the goal to preserve life. If it did, it would be a failure because we all die.

Medicine doesn't even have healing as a goal.

There's certain diseases which doctors are not able to heal yet.

You're right healing/treating is more accurate.

[Luminesa]

1.) It's all good. I wonder if they're on sale, somewhere. Hmmm...all goofing around aside, abstinence is the only way to not get pregnant 100% of the time. And again, a condom can break. And birth control does not always work.

2.) Well, here's the double-standard I've found. If a guy tells a girl not to get the abortion, people scream, "It's her body, you didn't carry the pregnancy, men don't have vaginas, etc." But if the man drags her to the car and tells her to get the abortion, nobody says a word. At least that I know of.

3.) I brought it up because I saw "quality of life", and that term always makes me cringe a bit...people like to say "quality of life" when they talk about disabled people and whatnot.

Forcing women to abort is just as despicable. Plenty of people decry it. Have you never heard of the protests against China's one child policy?

I have definitely heard of them. China's government is despicable for promoting such a practice. No wonder it has the highest rate of suicide in the world, among women...

But my point is when the guy tells the girl to abort, I don't see Planned Parenthood and co. coming out and saying, "Stop! It's the woman's choice!" I mean, when they do, send me a link so I can see it.

[Mavorpen]

Forcing women to abort is just as despicable. Plenty of people decry it. Have you never heard of the protests against China's one child policy?

I have definitely heard of them. China's government is despicable for promoting such a practice. No wonder it has the highest rate of suicide in the world, among women...

But my point is when the guy tells the girl to abort, I don't see Planned Parenthood and co. coming out and saying, "Stop! It's the woman's choice!" I mean, when they do, send me a link so I can see it.

http://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/ ... ld-policy/

Literally took five seconds to Google.

[Luminesa]

Bullshit. It's meant to heal. Medicine doesn't have the goal to preserve life. If it did, it would be a failure because we all die.

Medicine doesn't even have healing as a goal.

There's certain diseases which doctors are not able to heal yet.

Heal, preserve the life, same difference.

True, we can't cure cancer, yet, but we can deal with the symptoms, go in and try to get the tumor, and make the patient as comfortable as possible, if it's terminal.

And with that final comment I'm thinking we might end up starting a debate on assisted suicide.

I'm honest, does anyone know how to start threads? I want to start some threads on this site. It'll be fun.

[Stormwind-City]

Preventing something from coming alive is not death, but nonexistence. Me not impregnating your sister does not kill our potential child - it prevents it from existing.

The primary debate people often have about abortion is when the fetus stops being a clump of cells and becomes a person. Some say immediately after conception. Some say when it acquires the capacity to experience things; to dream and feel. And some say not before it is born.

The secondary debate is which right weighs heavier: the mothers right to decide what to do with her own body, or the fetus supposed right to be allowed to become a baby.
Or, if you are a Biblical literalist - the husbands right to determine how much value to ascribe to the unborn child; in which case both the rights of the fetus and the woman are considered non-existent.

1.) A dead thing can't grow. That baby is definitely living.

2.) True. But science does say life begins at conception, so...

3.) I dunno about it being a Biblical literalist, I think it's more of...well...it takes two to tango. The mom and the dad should have equal say, but the problem is the guy is often shut out when he wants to keep the baby. So no, the rights of the fetus and the dad are rendered non-existent...

2) 'life' begins at implantation on the uterine wall, life actually begins after you've been born.

[Luminesa]

I have definitely heard of them. China's government is despicable for promoting such a practice. No wonder it has the highest rate of suicide in the world, among women...

But my point is when the guy tells the girl to abort, I don't see Planned Parenthood and co. coming out and saying, "Stop! It's the woman's choice!" I mean, when they do, send me a link so I can see it.

http://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/ ... ld-policy/

Literally took five seconds to Google.

Google is a wonderful thing.

Anywho, they say they oppose it. Good for them. Now are they going to try and do anything to stop it? (Planned Parenthood International, I mean.) Probably not.

Meanwhile, Women's Rights Without Borders is in China advocating for an end to the one-child policy. I would be pleased if PP did the same thing (it would show they have a shred of decency), but the problem is they won't.

I mean, find me a source where a guy told a girl to abort and Planned Parenthood said no. We're not specifically talking about the one-child policy, as evil and sick as it is.

[Stormwind-City]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_procedure#Definition

I know what a medical procedure is. My parents are both nurses.

I don't like to call it medicine because medicine is meant to preserve life, not take it away.

"ICD-10 is the 10th revision of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD), a medical classification list by the World Health Organization (WHO)."
http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2015/en#/O04

[Stormwind-City]

http://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/ ... ld-policy/

Literally took five seconds to Google.

Google is a wonderful thing.

Anywho, they say they oppose it. Good for them. Now are they going to try and do anything to stop it? (Planned Parenthood International, I mean.) Probably not.

Meanwhile, Women's Rights Without Borders is in China advocating for an end to the one-child policy. I would be pleased if PP did the same thing (it would show they have a shred of decency), but the problem is they won't.

I mean, find me a source where a guy told a girl to abort and Planned Parenthood said no. We're not specifically talking about the one-child policy, as evil and sick as it is.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

[Mavorpen]

http://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/ ... ld-policy/

Literally took five seconds to Google.

Google is a wonderful thing.

Anywho, they say they oppose it. Good for them. Now are they going to try and do anything to stop it? (Planned Parenthood International, I mean.) Probably not.

Yes. Why don't you actually read the link I posted? They support activists in China fighting for the end of it.

Meanwhile, Women's Rights Without Borders is in China advocating for an end to the one-child policy. I would be pleased if PP did the same thing (it would show they have a shred of decency), but the problem is they won't.

For fuck's sake Planned Parenthood IS advocating for it to be ended.

I mean, find me a source where a guy told a girl to abort and Planned Parenthood said no. We're not specifically talking about the one-child policy, as evil and sick as it is.

Why the fuck should I waste my time obliging to your erroneous request? Planned Parenthood has better things to do than to scour the internet blogs for stories about these things and release official statements on every one. Stop being asinine.

[Luminesa]

Google is a wonderful thing.

Anywho, they say they oppose it. Good for them. Now are they going to try and do anything to stop it? (Planned Parenthood International, I mean.) Probably not.

Meanwhile, Women's Rights Without Borders is in China advocating for an end to the one-child policy. I would be pleased if PP did the same thing (it would show they have a shred of decency), but the problem is they won't.

I mean, find me a source where a guy told a girl to abort and Planned Parenthood said no. We're not specifically talking about the one-child policy, as evil and sick as it is.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

Wait, what? Wait a second...

I'm not extending any boundaries. My original question was, "Okay, where can you find me an instance in which a man told a woman to get an abortion and PP stood up for them?" I didn't quite mean government-size domination in which NOBODY has ANY RIGHTS (China). Though Mavorpen made a valid point that PP did say something against the policy, that was not my original point I was trying to reach. I mean between a boyfriend and a girlfriend sort of thing.

You know what I'm saying?

[Mavorpen]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

Wait, what? Wait a second...

I'm not extending any boundaries. My original question was, "Okay, where can you find me an instance in which a man told a woman to get an abortion and PP stood up for them?" I didn't quite mean government-size domination in which NOBODY has ANY RIGHTS (China). Though Mavorpen made a valid point that PP did say something against the policy, that was not my original point I was trying to reach. I mean between a boyfriend and a girlfriend sort of thing.

You know what I'm saying?

Yes. And it's unreasonable as fuck. This is like asking me to provide a source of Sprite releasing an official statement against people being physically assaulted for not liking Sprite.

[Godular]

Hmm. Lets see here, a woman deciding that she doesn't want to carry a pregnancy to term... compared to millions of actual PERSONS being systematically tortured and murdered in cold blood. I find myself entertained by the sheer depths of human depravity that people will engage in when they think that they are in the right.

Almost like those folks who try and hide behind their bible and 'religious freedom' as an excuse to discriminate against LGBT couples and people. Yeah. I just compared pro-life to anachronistic hatred. Best part? Mine's closer than yours.

I have no idea what you mean to accomplish by that first part. Abortion is indeed the systematic torture and murder of individuals in cold blood. And nobody has yet to give me a legal definition of 'personhood'. I'm talking legal documents, stating, "Okay, this here is a person, this here is not."

I am not depraved, and if I was I would be in the loony house. Now, I might have a ragingly-insane imagination, but that is only due to me watching too many cartoons and reading lots of books.

Um, here's my problem with the second part:
1.) There's a thread for homosexuality, if you want to talk about that. I don't mind.
2.) I don't discriminate against LGBT couples and people. I have relatives and friends who are gay, and I love them regardless. My problem is when a person says, "Well, I don't agree with gay marriage", and they get called "hateful, intolerant, bigot, etc." by society at large. Meanwhile, you have people in Oklahoma doing Satanic rituals, desecrating the Catholic Church's most precious teaching (Holy Eucharist), and nobody calls that "hateful, intolerant, bigoted, etc." I find this double-standard appalling.

I wouldn't say you're close. Problem is, calling the Church "hateful" is one of the most used arguments I have seen, when browsing the Internet. If you want to talk about the Church, send me a telegram and we can get down to it. Bottom line: the abortion industry is involved in a new sort of holocaust on unborn children. I'm pretty darn close. :/

1) https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=depravity+definition&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGNI_enUS558US558&q=depravity+definition&gs_l=hp...0l3j0i22i30l2.0.0.0.3526...........0.yLfALOArXUU The definition of depravity. In this case trying to equate a medical procedure used as the last line of defense against getting pregnant when undesired to a systematic program of mass torture and murder against born people who are capable of experiencing pain and suffering, and not understanding that its a terrible comparison from both a functional and emotional standpoint.

It has nothing to do with sanity. It has to do with what people such as yourself deem as 'permissible'.

2) Fetuses cannot feel pain and suffering. Seriously, we slapped you in the face over this before.

3) Didn't stop you from divulging your story with Cerebral Palsy, even though this thread is about abortion, not euthanasia (which I support, but hey, its the person's choice)

4) You may not discriminate against LGBT, its fundamentally irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is yes, mine is closer than your comparison between Abortion and the Holocaust because you are supporting an anachronistic system that continues to believe in women as little more than unnecessarily complicated walking gestation pods. You can deny this all you like, but it is most assuredly exactly what you are doing.

1. Sex ain't just about getting pregnant. Now that I think about it, we haven't gotten into THAT subject in this thread yet, so lets go ahead and open THAT can of worms while we're here! (AKA Sex Feels Good. News at 11)

2. Source.

3. Irrelevant.

1.) Pretty sure we got into that. Yep, sex is also about feeling good and making bonds with your husband/wife. It's not a bad thing.

2.) Gimme a second:

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/ ... on-rights/
(This is what abortion activists say to a guy who wants to keep the baby.)

http://saynsumthn.wordpress.com/2010/10 ... -abortion/
(Here's just one story where a guy beats his girlfriend for not having an abortion. As you can plainly see, when this woman and her baby are traumatized, Planned Parenthood and pro-choice activists are clearly missing from the picture. If they really cared about women, they would have heard about this case and spoken up.)

3.) Okay, your point?

1. Slut shaming. If the woman wants to have sex before getting married, who are you to say whether that's good or bad? Also, if she wants to have sex, but does not feel like she's ready for motherhood, who are you to say tough luck?

2. Mav dealt with those.

3. That you keep tossing out appeals to emotion as if you expect to convince us of anything. Really, it just makes your own position look worse and worse.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Medicine doesn't even have healing as a goal.

There's certain diseases which doctors are not able to heal yet.

Heal, preserve the life, same difference.

True, we can't cure cancer, yet, but we can deal with the symptoms, go in and try to get the tumor, and make the patient as comfortable as possible, if it's terminal.

And with that final comment I'm thinking we might end up starting a debate on assisted suicide.

I'm honest, does anyone know how to start threads? I want to start some threads on this site. It'll be fun.

No, preserving life is not the goal of medicine.

[Luminesa]

Google is a wonderful thing.

Anywho, they say they oppose it. Good for them. Now are they going to try and do anything to stop it? (Planned Parenthood International, I mean.) Probably not.

Yes. Why don't you actually read the link I posted? They support activists in China fighting for the end of it.

Meanwhile, Women's Rights Without Borders is in China advocating for an end to the one-child policy. I would be pleased if PP did the same thing (it would show they have a shred of decency), but the problem is they won't.

For fuck's sake Planned Parenthood IS advocating for it to be ended.

I mean, find me a source where a guy told a girl to abort and Planned Parenthood said no. We're not specifically talking about the one-child policy, as evil and sick as it is.

Why the fuck should I waste my time obliging to your erroneous request? Planned Parenthood has better things to do than to scour the internet blogs for stories about these things and release official statements on every one. Stop being asinine.

I read it. I guess I missed that part. And if they are, good. No need to shout at me over the internet. If I missed something, it happens.

Why? Because it proves a valid point. If PP did care about women (one-child policy protests aside...I'll have to go read that again later, when my computer's not dying), they would protest when a guy tries to force his girlfriend to have an abortion. They don't have to do it on every one, just like I don't have to go to every story about abortion and say, "This is wrong." You see what I'm saying?

[Stormwind-City]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

Wait, what? Wait a second...

I'm not extending any boundaries. My original question was, "Okay, where can you find me an instance in which a man told a woman to get an abortion and PP stood up for them?" I didn't quite mean government-size domination in which NOBODY has ANY RIGHTS (China). Though Mavorpen made a valid point that PP did say something against the policy, that was not my original point I was trying to reach. I mean between a boyfriend and a girlfriend sort of thing.

You know what I'm saying?

[Luminesa]

Heal, preserve the life, same difference.

True, we can't cure cancer, yet, but we can deal with the symptoms, go in and try to get the tumor, and make the patient as comfortable as possible, if it's terminal.

And with that final comment I'm thinking we might end up starting a debate on assisted suicide.

I'm honest, does anyone know how to start threads? I want to start some threads on this site. It'll be fun.

No, preserving life is not the goal of medicine.

Well, what is the difference between healing and preserving life? They basically mean the same thing.

[Godular]

Wait, what? Wait a second...

I'm not extending any boundaries. My original question was, "Okay, where can you find me an instance in which a man told a woman to get an abortion and PP stood up for them?" I didn't quite mean government-size domination in which NOBODY has ANY RIGHTS (China). Though Mavorpen made a valid point that PP did say something against the policy, that was not my original point I was trying to reach. I mean between a boyfriend and a girlfriend sort of thing.

You know what I'm saying?

I like your style, sir.

[Luminesa]

Wait, what? Wait a second...

I'm not extending any boundaries. My original question was, "Okay, where can you find me an instance in which a man told a woman to get an abortion and PP stood up for them?" I didn't quite mean government-size domination in which NOBODY has ANY RIGHTS (China). Though Mavorpen made a valid point that PP did say something against the policy, that was not my original point I was trying to reach. I mean between a boyfriend and a girlfriend sort of thing.

You know what I'm saying?

LOL. I see what you did there.

But it's not backing up your argument. :/

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yes. Why don't you actually read the link I posted? They support activists in China fighting for the end of it.

For fuck's sake Planned Parenthood IS advocating for it to be ended.

Why the fuck should I waste my time obliging to your erroneous request? Planned Parenthood has better things to do than to scour the internet blogs for stories about these things and release official statements on every one. Stop being asinine.

I read it. I guess I missed that part. And if they are, good. No need to shout at me over the internet. If I missed something, it happens.

Why? Because it proves a valid point. If PP did care about women (one-child policy protests aside...I'll have to go read that again later, when my computer's not dying), they would protest when a guy tries to force his girlfriend to have an abortion. They don't have to do it on every one, just like I don't have to go to every story about abortion and say, "This is wrong." You see what I'm saying?

And anyone you go to with this story,even the most ardent fringe pro-abortionist (pro-choice is an entirely different thing than pro-abortionist, by the by) would tell you that's not what they meant.

[Mavorpen]

Why? Because it proves a valid point. If PP did care about women (one-child policy protests aside...I'll have to go read that again later, when my computer's not dying), they would protest when a guy tries to force his girlfriend to have an abortion. They don't have to do it on every one, just like I don't have to go to every story about abortion and say, "This is wrong." You see what I'm saying?

Yes,I do. And it's unreasonable. Planned Parenthood cannot protest over things they haven't heard about. The fact that your link was a BLOG is evidence that the story wasn't anything big reported. You're literally expecting PP to take time to go through blogs and search for these stories just to release official condemnations. It's asinine.

[Godular]

LOL. I see what you did there.

But it's not backing up your argument. :/

Actually, yes it is. He's pointing out that what you're saying is EXACTLY WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No, preserving life is not the goal of medicine.

Well, what is the difference between healing and preserving life? They basically mean the same thing.

They do not.

Healing means removing a disease. You can heal a flu or a sprained ankle. That's part of the reasons doctors are doctors, but not the only reason, and doctors certainly are under no obligation to you or myself to heal diseases 100% of the time or preserve life 100% of the time.

Preserving life isn't medicine's purpose, preserving life means that, preserving a patient a life. Doctors are under no obligation to keep a patient alive at all costs, their obligation is to seek treatment or a cure for a disease, but if there is no treatment or cure they are under no obligation to treat it until they figure out how to treat it either a single doctor or the medical community.

[Stormwind-City]

(Image)

LOL. I see what you did there.

But it's not backing up your argument. :/

"But my point is when the guy tells the girl to abort, I don't see Planned Parenthood and co. coming out and saying, "Stop! It's the woman's choice!" I mean, when they do, send me a link so I can see it."

The boot

fits.

[Godular]

Well, what is the difference between healing and preserving life? They basically mean the same thing.

They do not.

Healing means removing a disease. You can heal a flu or a sprained ankle.

Preserving life is medicine's purpose, preserving life means that, preserving a patient a life. Doctors are under no obligation to keep a patient alive at all costs, their obligation is to seek treatment or a cure for a disease, but if there is no treatment or cure they are under no obligation to treat it until they figure out how to treat it either a single doctor or the medical community.

I think it also useful to point out that if Luminesa's logic were to hold true, then Doctors would routinely disregard a person's living will in the event that it would stipulate terminating life support under certain conditions... and anencephalic newborns would be kept on life support indefinitely.

Would this count as reductio ad absurdium?