Abortion: Humane or not?

[Udinia]

Eh.....I don’t suppose that I oppose it enough to make it illegal or anything. It's just a personal issue for me really, my faith in humanity, including pregnant women, is lacking.

you don't have to have faith in humanity (its mostly a bad idea anyway) in order to understand that her decision is none of your business.

what IS your business is to live in a society where a woman isn't force to have or not to have an abortion. its also a good thing to want a society that doesn't add extra pressures for a woman to choose abortion (financial reasons, shame, lack of other kinds of support) there are a whole host of public policies you might want to support that lowers the abortion rate.

but in the end the number of women who cavalierly get abortions is miniscule. it makes no sense to make it harder on the vast majority of responsible women who are making the best decision for their own lives in order to keep the assholes in line. ... you can never keep the assholes in line.

Good point, very good point actually.

I'm very big on the "finding policies to reduce the numbers of abortions" stuff. What policies do you, believe would do that?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You're talking like there's such a huge difference. The only difference there is is that the woman carries the child. The father is still the father and should have a say in it.

Its not. And the "quality of life" matter is just being selfish, once again it ignores the point of taking responsibility.

Its not about children or adults here, everybody should take responsibility, period.

That's your opinion, i'd consider a turtles life equally as important as mine.
As for the assassin's thing, yes. Both mine as his/hers would be the same, though in this case its life A or life B, well obviously i wouldn't kill myself for him so i'd kill him instead. Aside from that, i'm probably younger then the assassin so i have (most likely) more years to go, which only adds up to the decision..

Why should I have a say on a woman's decisions? As in, you're saying it, but you're not giving any reasons for it. Why should I know better than she does about her health when it comes to a pregnancy?

Yes, congratulations in demonstrating people are self-interested by catching that up. Why should it be a responsibility they have to take upon simply because you say so?

No, it definitely is. Here's a hypothetical: you are pregnant but the only way a child can come out is through your urethra (assuming we retain our current anatomy for some reason) would you do it and "take responsibility"?

And thank you for proving not all lives are equal.

[Mavorpen]

So if she consented to sex and the man started beating on her without her permission, she has to just take it, right?

After all, she consented.

Technically she consented to sex, but not the beating.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious point that was being made.

[Mavorpen]

Why should I have a say on a woman's decisions? As in, you're saying it, but you're not giving any reasons for it. Why should I know better than she does about her health when it comes to a pregnancy?

You see, that's his method of debating.

1. State women who have abortions are irresponsible and are taking the easy way out.
2. See step 1.

And thank you for proving not all lives are equal.

I find his claim that all life is equal hilarious given this in another thread:

No, I used to take animal rights as an important issue but animals are closer to things than they are to people in my book. Should animals be treated badly? I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that I'm more important than your dog.

Your opinion, but in my book i find my dog alot more important then i find you, nothing personal, just the way it is.

[United Republic of Pinewald]

Said the poster with only six posts....

Number of posts means nothing. You are attacking the poster not the argument.

I attacked the argument, I have no information whether or not the person posting is a bad person or not.

Being a member to this site does not mean I know nothing of politics. I've been a member to this site since May 2011, but I lost my email of that time and password. I like this site because of all these subjects.

Alright, I'll put it out there more of my angles on this, maybe this'll do it-

A physical abortion, they actually put a tiny, thin vacuum hose inside the uterus, and suck the baby's brain out. sad.
Another way to have the cop-out of a girl take a pill, that kills the fetus.

If I sound venomous in this, I meant not to sound that way, rather to be honest.

[Mavorpen]

A physical abortion, they actually put a tiny, thin vacuum hose inside the uterus, and suck the baby's brain out. sad.

I don't see the sad thing here. Fetuses at this point don't have distinct brain activity. You might as well consider cutting off the head of a cockroach sad.

[Ashmoria]

you don't have to have faith in humanity (its mostly a bad idea anyway) in order to understand that her decision is none of your business.

what IS your business is to live in a society where a woman isn't force to have or not to have an abortion. its also a good thing to want a society that doesn't add extra pressures for a woman to choose abortion (financial reasons, shame, lack of other kinds of support) there are a whole host of public policies you might want to support that lowers the abortion rate.

but in the end the number of women who cavalierly get abortions is miniscule. it makes no sense to make it harder on the vast majority of responsible women who are making the best decision for their own lives in order to keep the assholes in line. ... you can never keep the assholes in line.

Good point, very good point actually.

I'm very big on the "finding policies to reduce the numbers of abortions" stuff. What policies do you, believe would do that?

minimum guaranteed income and national daycare support. but those aren't going to happen.

birth control access (which is mostly taken care of by obamacare but it sure would help of all the states took the Medicaid expansion so poor women could be better covered), raising the minimum wage, child support enforcement, comprehensive sex ed in schools, day care centers in highschools and colleges, a general strengthening of the social safety net--more subsidized housing, for example.

the biggest job has already been done--getting rid of the shame of having babies without being married. when I was growing up having a baby without being married was a shame almost impossible to overcome. they would throw you out of highschool and your future would be permanently scarred. if we could bring ourselves to financially support teen mothers it would go even farther toward making it possible for those girls to have their babies instead of getting an abortion. (it wouldn't stop teen abortions, of course, since there is so much more to keeping babies than money)

[Ashmoria]

Number of posts means nothing. You are attacking the poster not the argument.

I attacked the argument, I have no information whether or not the person posting is a bad person or not.

Being a member to this site does not mean I know nothing of politics. I've been a member to this site since May 2011, but I lost my email of that time and password. I like this site because of all these subjects.

Alright, I'll put it out there more of my angles on this, maybe this'll do it-

A physical abortion, they actually put a tiny, thin vacuum hose inside the uterus, and suck the baby's brain out. sad.
Another way to have the cop-out of a girl take a pill, that kills the fetus.

If I sound venomous in this, I meant not to sound that way, rather to be honest.

most medical procedures are pretty disgusting if you state them that way. we don't stop doing them because its is yucky to think about.

[Dain II Ironfoot]

Not your permission for that matter, though a man should have something to say about his child, its not like the man doesn't have anything to do with it.

It indeed has, but keeping it or removing it isn't a choice of "whats the best for my body"

Please show me, where did i said that?

It really is, Life is life, why would your life be more important then the life of a turtle for that matter?



1) I'll let you know as soon as you know how to read.
2) Its very relevant, you just lack basic understanding, your problem, not mine.
3) Becouse you're to lazy to take responsibility for your actions.
4) Tell me.
5) Its funny though how you accuse me of denying women their rights and that i would want to controll them, yet you only show that you want to do that exact thing to men. Anyhow, its good what kind of person you are, makes it alot easier.
6) If you read properly, i never said that sentence. Once again you show that you cannot even read, yet you claim that you would be suitable for the decision between life and no life? Just pathetic.


Not Always, but just 99.9999999999% of the time, which is more then enough. Children are educated faster, more and on a better way. Never said that education solely comes from a child. Meh, such private schools should be banned. Proper argument? You're spitting out random stuff all over the place that is completely irrelevant in this matter.



Indeed.



Actually, with an abortion they would take the easy road out. The easy road isn't Always the best road you know.
Two different views against eachother is what i call a double standard (not sure if in Eglish its callled the same, but over here it is called that way)
Different reasons, If the health would be in danger then i would allow it since health is all a person actually has in matter of fact. When she would be raped, its kinda sick to force her to keep the child, its a moral thing i suppose. When she's to poor, she can't offer the child a proper life, which isn't good for the child nor the woman (now ofcourse adoption should be an option here aswell i guess).

No it not. An abortion is taking responsibility. It isn't easy, especially with all the restrictions placed on it currently.

Double standard: a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

It is sick to force a woman to keep a pregnancy against her will regardless of whether she was raped or not.

No, it really isn't taking responsibility.
Not at all, she wants to have sex, she knows what can come from sex.

1. I do, though i do not see the need of proving myself when you are to lazy to read anyways.

So you DON'T have an argument. Got it.

2. See above, knowing how to read is a great thing you know, try it out for a time.

So again, no argument.

3. Bulslhit.

Still no argument?

4. No you did not.

So still no argument.

5. We know it by now, you're one of those over-feminist women who can't even think clear anymore.

Nah, I'm a black guy.

6. Wrong, you hate the idea of a man with thoughts of his own.

If you're implying that I hate you, you're wrong. That would require you to have thoughts of your own. So far you haven't been able to communicate a single coherent argument or rebuttal.

7. Did i ever said i could?

So then why are you on an English based forum?

English is my fourth language, something you wouldn't even be able to reach.

Why would I want to reach a lower level?

You proved yourself over and over again not being able to read properly.

Ah, I see what's going on here. You're projecting your own problem of not understanding basic English onto me. That definitely explains why you cannot formulate or present a single argument and can only shout and repeat the same things over and over: you don't actually understand what's being posted.

8. Once again you thrown in random words

No, what I posted is called a "sentence." Specifically, several sentences. You do know what a sentence is, correct?

to defend yourself without actually taking on the subject.

You claimed that women take the easy way out by getting an abortion. I refutes that bullshit by pointing out that every medical procedure including abortion is taking the easy way out. I addressed your claim. And you don't have an actual response to it. Let me know when you form a coherent argument.

Once more i'm going to say "health", probably useless since you're ignorent but well, at least i tried.

I get it, you have trouble reading. That doesn't give you an excuse to respond with the same word over and over with no explanation. If you don't understand English and by extension, my argument, just tell me. Bumbling around like 2 year old that only knows how to respond with one word is not an argument.

1-4. Typical response from somebody that can't figure out basic logic.
5. So?
6. Never implied that, and yes i have, you just fail to understand basic logic and you fail to read aswell. Try working on that.
7. Why not? Its not a requirement to know English perfectly.
8. Don't try to be smart, nobody buys it.
9. Wrong, try again.
10. No, those where just random words that had nothing to do with the subject that is being discussed over here.
11. Already responded to it, you're failure at reading is once again not my problem but yours.
12. Claims the one that cannot read.

You're talking like there's such a huge difference. The only difference there is is that the woman carries the child. The father is still the father and should have a say in it.

Its not. And the "quality of life" matter is just being selfish, once again it ignores the point of taking responsibility.

Its not about children or adults here, everybody should take responsibility, period.

That's your opinion, i'd consider a turtles life equally as important as mine.
As for the assassin's thing, yes. Both mine as his/hers would be the same, though in this case its life A or life B, well obviously i wouldn't kill myself for him so i'd kill him instead. Aside from that, i'm probably younger then the assassin so i have (most likely) more years to go, which only adds up to the decision..

Why should I have a say on a woman's decisions? As in, you're saying it, but you're not giving any reasons for it. Why should I know better than she does about her health when it comes to a pregnancy?

Yes, congratulations in demonstrating people are self-interested by catching that up. Why should it be a responsibility they have to take upon simply because you say so?

No, it definitely is. Here's a hypothetical: you are pregnant but the only way a child can come out is through your urethra (assuming we retain our current anatomy for some reason) would you do it and "take responsibility"?

And thank you for proving not all lives are equal.

Maybe becouse its your child aswell?
pregnancy without real complications wont affecting her general health.

Becouse i actually care about people and don't want to see more of these wasted generations? Aside from that, a child is something that lives, its not a thing like a cellphone or something.

They are.

I find his claim that all life is equal hilarious given this in another thread:

Your opinion, but in my book i find my dog alot more important then i find you, nothing personal, just the way it is.

Fun fact: There are alot of ways to look at things, objectively i find all lives equal, emotionally i find those close to me more important then others.
The only hilarious thing here is that you don't even get such simple logic.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I attacked the argument, I have no information whether or not the person posting is a bad person or not.

Being a member to this site does not mean I know nothing of politics. I've been a member to this site since May 2011, but I lost my email of that time and password. I like this site because of all these subjects.

Alright, I'll put it out there more of my angles on this, maybe this'll do it-

A physical abortion, they actually put a tiny, thin vacuum hose inside the uterus, and suck the baby's brain out. sad.
Another way to have the cop-out of a girl take a pill, that kills the fetus.

If I sound venomous in this, I meant not to sound that way, rather to be honest.

most medical procedures are pretty disgusting if you state them that way. we don't stop doing them because its is yucky to think about.

You don't want me to get on how to put a stent in the great cardiac vein.

[Ashmoria]

most medical procedures are pretty disgusting if you state them that way. we don't stop doing them because its is yucky to think about.

You don't want me to get on how to put a stent in the great cardiac vein.

noooooo I don't

even a common thing like an appendectomy sounds horrible when you state it baldly.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Why should I have a say on a woman's decisions? As in, you're saying it, but you're not giving any reasons for it. Why should I know better than she does about her health when it comes to a pregnancy?

Yes, congratulations in demonstrating people are self-interested by catching that up. Why should it be a responsibility they have to take upon simply because you say so?

No, it definitely is. Here's a hypothetical: you are pregnant but the only way a child can come out is through your urethra (assuming we retain our current anatomy for some reason) would you do it and "take responsibility"?

And thank you for proving not all lives are equal.

Maybe becouse its your child aswell?
pregnancy without real complications wont affecting her general health.

Becouse i actually care about people and don't want to see more of these wasted generations? Aside from that, a child is something that lives, its not a thing like a cellphone or something.

They are.

And that's it? Just because I am the father I should have a say to it?

How do you know that all pregnancies don't come with complications?

You care about abortion because you care about people and wasted generations? Not to burst your bubble but have you gone to a hospital's ward lately? Also, children are not fetuses.

They aren't, otherwise you wouldn't concede that emotionally they're not.

[Mavorpen]

1-4. Typical response from somebody that can't figure out basic logic.

You were the one admitting you don't have an argument, not me.

5. So?

Yeah, I'm also trying to figure out why my gender is relevant. So why exactly did you bring it up again?

6. Never implied that,

Good.

and yes i have

No you haven't. You already admitted you don't have an argument nor any proof.

1. I do, though i do not see the need of proving myself when you are to lazy to read anyways.

Don't backpedal on me now.

7. Why not? Its not a requirement to know English perfectly.

Of course not. It's required that you be able to comprehend English enough to be able to form a coherent argument, though. So far you haven't done that.

8. Don't try to be smart, nobody buys it.

I'm not trying to be. It comes with knowing what a sentence is.

9. Wrong, try again.

Okay.

You claimed that women take the easy way out by getting an abortion. I refuted that bullshit by pointing out that every medical procedure including abortion is taking the easy way out. I addressed your claim. And you don't have an actual response to it. Let me know when you form a coherent argument.

Since you didn't actually post any argument refuting my point, I decided to take your advice and try again. Perhaps this time you'll actually read it and see fit to post something refuting it.

10. No, those where just random words that had nothing to do with the subject that is being discussed over here.

I understand that English isn't your first language, but that doesn't excuse you not understanding what the word "random" means. Random is defined as:

ran·dom
ˈrandəm/Submit
adjective
made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
"a random sample of 100 households"
synonyms: unsystematic, unmethodical, arbitrary, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, nonspecific, haphazard, stray, erratic; More

What I posted is, again, called a "sentence." Sentences are, by definition, not random. They have an established order and method and they can only be made with conscious decision to communicate complete thoughts.

Seriously, if you don't understand or grasp basic English words, why are you on an English based forum?

11. Already responded to it, you're failure at reading is once again not my problem but yours.

No you didn't. You called it "random words," when it was actually a group of sentences. That's not responding to the argument. That's the equivalent of shouting, "why are you throwing apples at me!?"

12. Claims the one that cannot read.

No, you didn't make that claim.

[Mavorpen]

Fun fact: There are alot of ways to look at things, objectively i find all lives equal, emotionally i find those close to me more important then others.
The only hilarious thing here is that you don't even get such simple stupid logic.

Fixed that for you. There's nothing "simple" about your "logic." It's mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance. There's nothing "objective" in value. You can't "objectively" find all lives equal. All value is has an inherently subjective basis. You cannot claim that lives are all equal while also claiming that some lives are more valuable than others. That's not logic. That's special pleading.

[SovietUnionv2]

I say it's the women's choice, but i'm very iffy on the subject. Simply, a question I've had is why does killing a baby one day after it is born sound so much worse to some people than one day before it is born. I put down that it is the woman's choice btw, its just I cant agree with the people who say one million fetuses does not equal a baby and those who say a cell is the equivalent of a baby.

[Edgy Opinions]

I say it's the women's choice, but i'm very iffy on the subject. Simply, a question I've had is why does killing a baby one day after it is born sound so much worse to some people than one day before it is born. I put down that it is the woman's choice btw, its just I cant agree with the people who say one million fetuses does not equal a baby and those who say a cell is the equivalent of a baby.

Because we're from a culture that regrets infanticide as completely unnecessary.

Most legal abortion is within a time period much before the formation of the central nervous system, though. Most late abortions are clandestine ones caused by its illegality.

[Czechostan]

Simply, a question I've had is why does killing a baby one day after it is born sound so much worse to some people than one day before it is born.

Because until it's born, it's a potential human life, not an actual human.

[SovietUnionv2]

By one day before standard delivery however, it is effectively a baby. I see the border between fetus and baby more as a fuzzy gray area than a clear cut line.

[Mavorpen]

By one day before standard delivery however, it is effectively a baby. I see the border between fetus and baby more as a fuzzy gray area than a clear cut line.

I don't think you should be concerned with abortions taking place one day before the expected day. The only way that would happen would be if the mother's life is in danger because of the pregnancy.

[SovietUnionv2]

No, im just discussing the people who think that no amount of unborn fetuses is equal to a baby. I do not equate it as quite 1 fetus=1 baby, but it's just I have trouble understanding those who go (exaggeration, of course) 1,000,000 =/= 1

[Stormwind-City]

By one day before standard delivery however, it is effectively a baby. I see the border between fetus and baby more as a fuzzy gray area than a clear cut line.

At that late in the pregnancy an abortion would only be performed in a dire medical emergency and in the form of a C-section.

[Luminesa]

You're talking like there's such a huge difference. The only difference there is is that the woman carries the child. The father is still the father and should have a say in it.

Its not. And the "quality of life" matter is just being selfish, once again it ignores the point of taking responsibility.

Its not about children or adults here, everybody should take responsibility, period.

That's your opinion, i'd consider a turtles life equally as important as mine.
As for the assassin's thing, yes. Both mine as his/hers would be the same, though in this case its life A or life B, well obviously i wouldn't kill myself for him so i'd kill him instead. Aside from that, i'm probably younger then the assassin so i have (most likely) more years to go, which only adds up to the decision..

Why should I have a say on a woman's decisions? As in, you're saying it, but you're not giving any reasons for it. Why should I know better than she does about her health when it comes to a pregnancy?

Yes, congratulations in demonstrating people are self-interested by catching that up. Why should it be a responsibility they have to take upon simply because you say so?

No, it definitely is. Here's a hypothetical: you are pregnant but the only way a child can come out is through your urethra (assuming we retain our current anatomy for some reason) would you do it and "take responsibility"?

And thank you for proving not all lives are equal.

After a long absence, I have returned!

Well, think about it this way: it takes two to tango. If you don't want the child in the first place, don't have sex. This country has a MAJOR problem with dads walking out on their kids, and it has effected the culture at large dramatically. The idea that a dude can leave a girl with the baby and just...walk out...is very selfish.

Why should you have a say on a woman's decision? Because it wasn't just the woman's decision to have sex in the first place. Not to mention you have just created a life, when you have created a baby. Creating a human being is a pretty big thing, and abandoning it is, again, a tragedy.

And I saw "quality of life", and here's my thought: my little sister is disabled. She has cerebral palsy. Many people would say her "quality of life" is very small, and that she will never be capable of anything. Maybe she won't graduate from Harvard or send a rocket to the moon, but I can say that she is at the center of our family, and without her our family would have broken apart a long time ago. She is awesome, I don't care what anyone says.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

By one day before standard delivery however, it is effectively a baby. I see the border between fetus and baby more as a fuzzy gray area than a clear cut line.

That would almost never occurred, unless in severe medical emergency.

[Stormwind-City]

∆ 'If you don't want to get in a car accident, don't drive your car'

Also, life is not created at conception. Medically, you are considered alive by your body being able to sustain homeostasis and metabolic processes on its own. Further more, a baby is something that's already been born, which a fetus isn't.

[Luminesa]

most medical procedures are pretty disgusting if you state them that way. we don't stop doing them because its is yucky to think about.

You don't want me to get on how to put a stent in the great cardiac vein.

Yeah, I probably don't.
Still, it's not just icky to think about. Most medical procedures ARE icky, come to think about. (Even a flu shot is uncomfortable, to say the least.) But the difference is that a flu shot can save a life. An abortion kills a life. A late-term abortion is, again, basically taking the child, smashing its skull, and then sucking the brain out. And a late-term abortion is on a viable child (third trimester). That doesn't sound like a very heroic act to me, no matter how anyone says abortion is a good thing.

And there are very few instances when a woman has an abortion because the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother. I mean, as far as all the reasons go for a woman having an abortion. If you know what I mean.

(Though I would not call an abortion a medical procedure myself...that would be like saying killing people in gas chambers is a 'medical procedure'. Yes, I just compared abortion to the Holocaust.)