Abortion: Humane or not?

[Fanosolia]

I'm pro choice and shit but try oral or anal.

Why? Some people prefer vaginal sex. There is no problem with that.

yes, but expecting birth control to 100% work so you don't have give birth/abortion is sort of a pipe dream. Yes there's nothing wrong with sex, but there are other sexual activities you can engage in consensually with your partner even without penetration to avoid the whole thing.

[Ashmoria]

Margaret Sanger: As an advocate of Birth Control, I wish to take advantage of the present opportunity to point out that the unbalance between the birth rate of the "unfit" and the "fit", admittedly the greatest present menace to civilization, can never be rectified by the inauguration of a cradle competition between these two classes. In this matter, the example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit though less fertile parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger/webe ... 238946.xml

and: (from the publication itself): “Those least fit to carry on the race are increasing most rapidly. People who cannot support their own offspring are encouraged by Church and State to produce large families. Many of the children thus begotten are diseased or feeble-minded; many become criminals. The burden of supporting these unwanted types has to be borne by the healthy elements of the nation. Funds that should be used to raise the standard of our civilization are diverted to the maintenance of those who should never have been born.” from The Pivot of Civilization, p. 279, where she outlines her principles.

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=1953

I do not think the eugenic element of abortion can be ignored.

is it eugenics when it is individual women freely deciding to get an abortion?

sure it CAN be eugenic but is it eugenics as it is practiced in the US?

[Mavorpen]

1) I'll let you know as soon as you know how to read.

So you DON'T understand the burden of proof after all.

2) Its very relevant, you just lack basic understanding, your problem, not mine.

And yet again you fail to grasp the burden of proof. Shouting "YES IT DOES!" is not an argument. I explained and proved this "health part bullshit" is irrelevant. You apparently can't explain one bit why it is. So I'll accept your concession.

3) Becouse you're to lazy to take responsibility for your actions.

No, if I were lazy and didn't want to take responsibility for my actions I would have the child and not take care of it nor give it up for adoption. THAT'S not taking responsibility. Giving birth and then neglecting the child is not taking responsibility. Recognizing a pregnancy would be a hinder on your life and health (all pregnancies and births have negative health effects, many permanent) and thus terminating it is no less taking responsibility than recognizing that a flu would hinder your daily activities and your health and taking a flu shot. That's the whole damn point of a medical procedure.

You don't even know what the words "lazy" or "responsibility" even mean. Stop using them like a random verbal tick.

4) Tell me.

I just did.

5) Its funny though how you accuse me of denying women their rights and that i would want to controll them, yet you only show that you want to do that exact thing to men.

No, I only want to do one of those things: take away the "right" of men to own women. And I don't see how that's funny. It's entirely consistent. We also don't let whites own blacks. The latter is bullshit. No men are being "controlled." Men have no physical stake in pregnancies.

Anyhow, its good what kind of person you are, makes it alot easier.

Yes, I'm the kind of person that hates the idea of being able to own women and treat them like livestock.

6) If you read properly, i never said that sentence. Once again you show that you cannot even read, yet you claim that you would be suitable for the decision between life and no life? Just pathetic.

HAHAHAHAHA. You REALLY don't want to go there:

2) Its very relevant, you just lack basic understanding, your problem, not mine.

3) Becouse you're to lazy to take responsibility for your actions.

5) Its funny though how you accuse me of denying women their rights and that i would want to controll them, yet you only show that you want to do that exact thing to men.

Anyhow, its good what kind of person you are, makes it alot easier.

So yes, I made a single error in misquoting. You, however, have continuously failed to follow basic rules of the English language. It's "too," not "to." It's "it's," not "its." It's "I," not "i." So allow me to post an amended version of your blatant attempt to dodge at giving an actual argument:

You show that you cannot even follow basic English grammatical rules, yet you claim that you would be suitable for the decision between life and no life? Just pathetic.

Actually, with an abortion they would take the easy road out.

EVERY medical procedure is taking the "easy road out." You get a third degree burn? You go to the hospital, which is taking the easy way out. You break your arm? You go to the hospital, which is taking the easy way out. That's the whole damn purpose of medical procedures. They're there to take the easy way out and avoid the worst possible consequences. That doesn't mean you're "irresponsible." It means you're not a fucking idiot.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Why should it be my prerogative whether she wants to keep the baby or not? In other words, what makes me as a man so special that she has to count with my permission to abort?

No, her making a choice whether she wants to go through a pregnancy or not does have to do with her body.

You are, because you're telling them we as men and as a society know better than the woman in question.

If life has no special meaning at all, then why would you want to keep women from aborting?

It's really not.

Not your permission for that matter, though a man should have something to say about his child, its not like the man doesn't have anything to do with it.

It indeed has, but keeping it or removing it isn't a choice of "whats the best for my body"

Please show me, where did i said that?

It really is, Life is life, why would your life be more important then the life of a turtle for that matter?

Why should I have anything to say about it as a man? It's not my body, I could give a fuck less if she wants to use the umbilical cord as bungee rope for all I know. I have some say to it, yes, but only if my partner lets me have a say in it. You seem to not understand the fact I'm not the one who has to look out for my own interests in this. I lose nothing with an abortion because I never had the child or experienced him in my life to begin with. The woman's self-interest is to have a good life, and for that she has to make a much harder choice than I when it comes to keeping the baby because she has to consider multiple factors.

Keeping it or removing certainly is a choice of "what's the best for my body" sometimes even going as far as "what's the best for my quality of life" we're self-centered, and I appreciate that; which is why the decisions a woman makes is based on her own desires, not yours.

Why do you keep arguing women should take responsibility for their actions, then? And why do you keep arguing "I would not..." or that they are under some sort of moral imperative imposed to them by society to have children then, if you don't believe women should be talked to like children and we should protect them from themselves. We protect children from their own mistakes and make them follow our rules because we want them to grow up to be productive individuals. Women are adults, why should we interfere with what's best for them and impose morals on them, unless you are the kind of person who views women as children?

My life is more important than that of a turtle because it is my life. Of course I am going to value my life more, fuck the turtle. Or do you value an assassin's life the same if they were to try to kill you?

[Libronyscien]

If it is frozen while it is still alive, yes.

Not sure how much is the average life of those cells out of the uterus though.

Fucking no, Charles.
Naturally conceived Z/E/Fs do NOT become stem cell research.
The things that are used to research stem cells are grown in a lab, not in a womb. They have no chance to become a baby.
You currently cannot donate aborted fetuses for any type of research in the United States AFAIK.

Ooh. Whoops.
I was totally wrong then. Whoops.

[Larthinia]

I don't know what is so humane about killing a fetus. He is innocent, he didn't even get to live, and he is aborted. That is brutal, if you ask me. But, though, of course it depends on the circumstances. But, in general, I do not recommend making abortions.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Fucking no, Charles.
Naturally conceived Z/E/Fs do NOT become stem cell research.
The things that are used to research stem cells are grown in a lab, not in a womb. They have no chance to become a baby.
You currently cannot donate aborted fetuses for any type of research in the United States AFAIK.

Ooh. Whoops.
I was totally wrong then. Whoops.

You are partially wrong.

We know in China is being used in research and stem cell therapy. We just don't know whether there's any success in using fetal stem cells at all given we have no access to the mainland journals (not without at least some knowledge of Mandarin anyways).

[Libronyscien]

Why? Some people prefer vaginal sex. There is no problem with that.

yes, but expecting birth control to 100% work so you don't have give birth/abortion is sort of a pipe dream. Yes there's nothing wrong with sex, but there are other sexual activities you can engage in consensually with your partner even without penetration to avoid the whole thing.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Larthinia]

Not your permission for that matter, though a man should have something to say about his child, its not like the man doesn't have anything to do with it.

It indeed has, but keeping it or removing it isn't a choice of "whats the best for my body"

Please show me, where did i said that?

It really is, Life is life, why would your life be more important then the life of a turtle for that matter?

Why should I have anything to say about it as a man? It's not my body, I could give a fuck less if she wants to use the umbilical cord as bungee rope for all I know. I have some say to it, yes, but only if my partner lets me have a say in it. You seem to not understand the fact I'm not the one who has to look out for my own interests in this. I lose nothing with an abortion because I never had the child or experienced him in my life to begin with. The woman's self-interest is to have a good life, and for that she has to make a much harder choice than I when it comes to keeping the baby because she has to consider multiple factors.

Keeping it or removing certainly is a choice of "what's the best for my body" sometimes even going as far as "what's the best for my quality of life" we're self-centered, and I appreciate that; which is why the decisions a woman makes is based on her own desires, not yours.

Why do you keep arguing women should take responsibility for their actions, then? And why do you keep arguing "I would not..." or that they are under some sort of moral imperative imposed to them by society to have children then, if you don't believe women should be talked to like children and we should protect them from themselves. We protect children from their own mistakes and make them follow our rules because we want them to grow up to be productive individuals. Women are adults, why should we interfere with what's best for them and impose morals on them, unless you are the kind of person who views women as children?

My life is more important than that of a turtle because it is my life. Of course I am going to value my life more, fuck the turtle. Or do you value an assassin's life the same if they were to try to kill you?

Actually, every creature's life on Earth is important. You can't simply say "fuck the turtle". If you were a 'less important' creature, let's say a bug, would you like being called 'less important'? I don't think so.

[Mavorpen]

I don't know what is so humane about killing a fetus. He is innocent, he didn't even get to live, and he is aborted. That is brutal, if you ask me. But, though, of course it depends on the circumstances. But, in general, I do not recommend making abortions.

Fetuses are about as innocent as parasitic worms.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

I don't know what is so humane about killing a fetus. He is innocent, he didn't even get to live, and he is aborted. That is brutal, if you ask me. But, though, of course it depends on the circumstances. But, in general, I do not recommend making abortions.

And it is not your place to recommend anything in the first place. There is nothing "brutal" about it either, as "killing" a fetus is about as brutal as removing a growth.

[Larthinia]

I don't know what is so humane about killing a fetus. He is innocent, he didn't even get to live, and he is aborted. That is brutal, if you ask me. But, though, of course it depends on the circumstances. But, in general, I do not recommend making abortions.

Fetuses are about as innocent as parasitic worms.

You can't say that.
Let's say a woman is in danger because of her fetus. The fetus is just struggling to survive, like the mother. Everybody struggles to survive in life. Even those parasitic worms you compared fetuses to.

[Mavorpen]

You can't say that.

Well, I just did, really.

Let's say a woman is in danger because of her fetus. The fetus is just struggling to survive, like the mother. Everybody struggles to survive in life. Even those parasitic worms you compared fetuses to.

So basically it's about as innocent as a parasitic worm.

So why the hell did you tell me I can't say that if you didn't even bother telling me why and in the end admitted to me they're just like parasitic worms?

[Larthinia]

I don't know what is so humane about killing a fetus. He is innocent, he didn't even get to live, and he is aborted. That is brutal, if you ask me. But, though, of course it depends on the circumstances. But, in general, I do not recommend making abortions.

And it is not your place to recommend anything in the first place. There is nothing "brutal" about it either, as "killing" a fetus is about as brutal as removing a growth.

I didn't know how to express myself, that's why I 'recommended'. You see, English is not my native language.
You can't simply say that. The fetus is a human, too. Not just a parasite.

[Fanosolia]

yes, but expecting birth control to 100% work so you don't have give birth/abortion is sort of a pipe dream. Yes there's nothing wrong with sex, but there are other sexual activities you can engage in consensually with your partner even without penetration to avoid the whole thing.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Technically you made it sound more like an option when you said it, something that I forgot to do. But regardless it's why I'm slowly wanting sex ed to go more and more in to psychology, biology, and so on when discussing this subject. I almost feel like I didn't get want I needed out of that subject when I had to take it in my school.

Thanks for the complement btw.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

And it is not your place to recommend anything in the first place. There is nothing "brutal" about it either, as "killing" a fetus is about as brutal as removing a growth.

I didn't know how to express myself, that's why I 'recommended'. You see, English is not my native language.
You can't simply say that. The fetus is a human, too. Not just a parasite.

No, it is not. It is not an individual and it is about as human as a tumor. Sure, it is alive and a mass of cells, but that is about it.

[Larthinia]

You can't say that.

Well, I just did, really.

Let's say a woman is in danger because of her fetus. The fetus is just struggling to survive, like the mother. Everybody struggles to survive in life. Even those parasitic worms you compared fetuses to.

So basically it's about as innocent as a parasitic worm.

So why the hell did you tell me I can't say that if you didn't even bother telling me why and in the end admitted to me they're just like parasitic worms?

I didn't say they are parasitic worms. You are blind or what? I said they are struggling to survive, just like you, just like me, just like parasitic worms. I made a comparison, I didn't say the fetuses themselves are parasitic worms.

[Mavorpen]

And it is not your place to recommend anything in the first place. There is nothing "brutal" about it either, as "killing" a fetus is about as brutal as removing a growth.

I didn't know how to express myself, that's why I 'recommended'. You see, English is not my native language.
You can't simply say that. The fetus is a human, too. Not just a parasite.

I don't see why we should consider it an individual human being until it has distinct brain activities and is sentient.

[Udinia]

I don't know what is so humane about killing a fetus. He is innocent, he didn't even get to live, and he is aborted. That is brutal, if you ask me. But, though, of course it depends on the circumstances. But, in general, I do not recommend making abortions.

Fetuses are about as innocent as parasitic worms.

Ugh, not this again.....


Look, Mavorpen, it does the discussion no benefit to compare fetuses to parasitic worms. All it does is anger your opponent which defeats the point of debating....which is to convey your side of the argument in a manner understood by the opposing side. Let's not make unsavory comparions between humans, or potential humans and parasites, ok dear?

[Mavorpen]

Fetuses are about as innocent as parasitic worms.

Ugh, not this again.....


Look, Mavorpen, it does the discussion no benefit to compare fetuses to parasitic worms. All it does is anger your opponent which defeats the point of debating....which is to convey your side of the argument in a manner understood by the opposing side. Let's no make unsavory comparions between humans, or potential humans and parasites, ok dear?

No thank you. You have utterly no authority over what I post, so don't pretend like you do.

[Larthinia]

I didn't know how to express myself, that's why I 'recommended'. You see, English is not my native language.
You can't simply say that. The fetus is a human, too. Not just a parasite.

No, it is not. It is not an individual and it is about as human as a tumor. Sure, it is alive and a mass of cells, but that is about it.

A mass of cells which will later become a human, if you want to take it that way.

[Redsection]

simple question

what if you were aborted would you support it

[Mavorpen]

No, it is not. It is not an individual and it is about as human as a tumor. Sure, it is alive and a mass of cells, but that is about it.

A mass of cells which will later become a human, if you want to take it that way.

And you're a mass of cells that will later became a corpse.

Would you like to just be buried right now?

[Mavorpen]

simple question

what if you were aborted would you support it

Yes.

Next asinine question?

[The Alma Mater]

simple question

what if you were aborted would you support it

Counter question:
Have you sat down and and actually thought really hard about that question ? Because philosopically it is nonsensical and without meaning