Abortion: Humane or not?

[Mavorpen]

So basically a fetus is equivalent to microscopic organisms and is not of equal value because they aren't conscious.

Thanks for playing.

So when does that fetus become a life? After birth? Maybe... When it can consciously make decisions? When?

This is gibberish. Fetuses are made up of living cells. Like you said before, though, simply being "living" isn't enough to be considered of equal value. YOU established the consciousness standard. And fetuses don't fulfill it. Ergo they aren't of equal value.

[Lakimina]

So basically a fetus is equivalent to microscopic organisms and is not of equal value because they aren't conscious.

Thanks for playing.

So when does that fetus become a life? After birth? Maybe... When it can consciously make decisions? When?

When it's first conceived *nod*

Mavorpen doesn't joke around here.

NSG is serious business *nods*. I kid.

But neh, yea, cattle lives are more important than a fetus, somewhat. I'm still going to eat steak

No I have no reason to be a asshole anymore. Thanks for kidding.

I eat Chicken and steak.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

So basically a fetus is equivalent to microscopic organisms and is not of equal value because they aren't conscious.

Thanks for playing.

So when does that fetus become a life? After birth? Maybe... When it can consciously make decisions? When?

I think this is time to actually whip out the whole "see i know more than you" card.

See, the problem here is that babies don't make conscious decisions, but they can recognize their parents and other people up to a degree. They can make basic decisions about their survival (if you can even call those "decisions") for all intents and purposes they are what we refer to as people, who we do recognize the value of their life.

We kind of give a subjective, non-universal value to fetuses as more of an idealistic notion of having a baby in our arms. But that's not the same as a person.

[Libronyscien]

Abortion is not humane unless it's under special circumstances. For example the birthing of the child poses a threat to the life of the mother, was conceived by unwillingly(as in rape or something similar) and etc. If she gets pregnant because she fucked some random dude, next time use a condom or some type of contraceptive as the blame is as much as yours as is his.

Contraceptives fail. There is nothing wrong with having sex.

I'm pro choice and shit but try oral or anal.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Contraceptives fail. There is nothing wrong with having sex.

I'm pro choice and shit but try oral or anal.

[Libronyscien]

Seriously?

Has anyone actually read about how it's done?

It is a sad passage in current history.

Other than rape caused conception, it's for nothing.

Said the poster with only six posts....

Number of posts means nothing. You are attacking the poster not the argument.

[Fanosolia]

Contraceptives fail. There is nothing wrong with having sex.

I'm pro choice and shit but try oral or anal.

At least, i'm not the only one thinking that. Though I broaden it a bit more than that.

[Libronyscien]

Why not? Is my life worth more than yours? Is my life worth less than yours? How exactly are lives measured?

Lives, in my opinion, are measured by utility.

If you kill a criminal who was going to shoot you or maim you, would you feel remorse afterwards because you killed them?

I measure everything by utility. If you are going to abort, don't waste the fetus. Donate it to science, please.

[Libronyscien]

I'm pro choice and shit but try oral or anal.

I can't be the only one thinking it.

---

Nice gif.

[Fanosolia]

Lives, in my opinion, are measured by utility.

If you kill a criminal who was going to shoot you or maim you, would you feel remorse afterwards because you killed them?

I measure everything by utility. If you are going to abort, don't waste the fetus. Donate it to science, please.

you can seriously do that and it's still usable? for what stem cell research?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I measure everything by utility. If you are going to abort, don't waste the fetus. Donate it to science, please.

you can seriously do that and it's still usable? for what stem cell research?

If it is frozen while it is still alive, yes.

Not sure how much is the average life of those cells out of the uterus though.

[Fanosolia]

you can seriously do that and it's still usable? for what stem cell research?

If it is frozen while it is still alive, yes.

Not sure how much is the average life of those cells out of the uterus though.

huh, I see. Never really gave that sort of thought to the subject. Thanks for the info.

Couldn't tell you, to be honest.

[Neutraligon]

It should be up to the woman, as it is her medical decision. Double standard, how?

Honestly, no. It denies them the duty to take responsibility for their actions.
Double standards by the means of: I do understand them though its still denies a child to be born.

I would allow a woman having an abortion if it would endanger her or the childs health (mental health included), if she was raped or if she would be to poor to raise a child properly.

They are taking responsibility by having an abortion.
And? how is that a double standard?

Why make those exceptions?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

you can seriously do that and it's still usable? for what stem cell research?

If it is frozen while it is still alive, yes.

Not sure how much is the average life of those cells out of the uterus though.

Fucking no, Charles.
Naturally conceived Z/E/Fs do NOT become stem cell research.
The things that are used to research stem cells are grown in a lab, not in a womb. They have no chance to become a baby.
You currently cannot donate aborted fetuses for any type of research in the United States AFAIK.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Contraceptives fail. There is nothing wrong with having sex.

I'm pro choice and shit but try oral or anal.

No.

[Neutraligon]

Contraceptives fail. There is nothing wrong with having sex.

I'm pro choice and shit but try oral or anal.

Why? Some people prefer vaginal sex. There is no problem with that.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I'm pro choice and shit but try oral or anal.

Why? Some people prefer vaginal sex. There is no problem with that.

Some people, i.e. me, can only feel any pleasure from penetrative vaginal intercourse. If we ain't puttin' it in there, it ain't goin' anywhere.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If it is frozen while it is still alive, yes.

Not sure how much is the average life of those cells out of the uterus though.

Fucking no, Charles.
Naturally conceived Z/E/Fs do NOT become stem cell research.
The things that are used to research stem cells are grown in a lab, not in a womb. They have no chance to become a baby.
You currently cannot donate aborted fetuses for any type of research in the United States AFAIK.

But they could come from aborted fetuses barring legal concerns, right?

Mind, I am not talking about the ethical ramifications yet (which I believe China gives zero fucks about when it comes to using fetuses from abortions, unlike the more restricted practice in the United States), just the possibility of it.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Fucking no, Charles.
Naturally conceived Z/E/Fs do NOT become stem cell research.
The things that are used to research stem cells are grown in a lab, not in a womb. They have no chance to become a baby.
You currently cannot donate aborted fetuses for any type of research in the United States AFAIK.

But they could come from aborted fetuses barring legal concerns, right?

Mind, I am not talking about the ethical ramifications yet (which I believe China gives zero fucks about when it comes to using fetuses from abortions, unlike the more restricted practice in the United States), just the possibility of it.

I do not believe so. The stem cells used, regardless of bioethics, have to come from 4-5 day old blastocysts, or very young embryos. i.e., before a woman can even detect that she is pregnant.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

But they could come from aborted fetuses barring legal concerns, right?

Mind, I am not talking about the ethical ramifications yet (which I believe China gives zero fucks about when it comes to using fetuses from abortions, unlike the more restricted practice in the United States), just the possibility of it.

I do not believe so. The stem cells used, regardless of bioethics, have to come from 4-5 day old blastocysts, or very young embryos. i.e., before a woman can even detect that she is pregnant.

Interesting. I got into searching myself what was up, and apparently there have been reports that it can be done:

http://www.scmp.com/article/967934/abor ... stem-cells

It's a 2011 article though, so I am not sure how much things have changed on the Chinese community since then.

You might be right though that the stem cells for research have to come from 4-5 day old blastocysts or very young embryos to have a pretty good sample. As I don't know much about stem cell content on the Embryo/Fetus stage or how that changes the properties of stem cells.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I do not believe so. The stem cells used, regardless of bioethics, have to come from 4-5 day old blastocysts, or very young embryos. i.e., before a woman can even detect that she is pregnant.

Interesting. I got into searching myself what was up, and apparently there have been reports that it can be done:

http://www.scmp.com/article/967934/abor ... stem-cells

It's a 2011 article though, so I am not sure how much things have changed on the Chinese community since then.

You might be right though that the stem cells for research have to come from 4-5 day old blastocysts or very young embryos to have a pretty good sample. As I don't know much about stem cell content on the Embryo/Fetus stage or how that changes the properties of stem cells.

All I know is that the older the source of the stem cells are, the more limited their uses are. Blastocystic and early embryonic stem cells have the most utilizable cells, where as an adult stem cells are only usable for certain, limited things. So while fetal stem cells may be useful in some capacity, not nearly as much as the earlier ones. But either way if fetal tissues can be used for research I would support it, so long as the "mother" isn't compensated for anything beyond the procedure. I don't want to see women purposefully getting pregnant for $50 a pop.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Interesting. I got into searching myself what was up, and apparently there have been reports that it can be done:

http://www.scmp.com/article/967934/abor ... stem-cells

It's a 2011 article though, so I am not sure how much things have changed on the Chinese community since then.

You might be right though that the stem cells for research have to come from 4-5 day old blastocysts or very young embryos to have a pretty good sample. As I don't know much about stem cell content on the Embryo/Fetus stage or how that changes the properties of stem cells.

All I know is that the older the source of the stem cells are, the more limited their uses are. Blastocystic and early embryonic stem cells have the most utilizable cells, where as an adult stem cells are only usable for certain, limited things. So while fetal stem cells may be useful in some capacity, not nearly as much as the earlier ones. But either way if fetal tissues can be used for research I would support it, so long as the "mother" isn't compensated for anything beyond the procedure. I don't want to see women purposefully getting pregnant for $50 a pop.

Yea I think that's a reasonable limitation if fetal stem cells can be used for research.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

All I know is that the older the source of the stem cells are, the more limited their uses are. Blastocystic and early embryonic stem cells have the most utilizable cells, where as an adult stem cells are only usable for certain, limited things. So while fetal stem cells may be useful in some capacity, not nearly as much as the earlier ones. But either way if fetal tissues can be used for research I would support it, so long as the "mother" isn't compensated for anything beyond the procedure. I don't want to see women purposefully getting pregnant for $50 a pop.

Yea I think that's a reasonable limitation if fetal stem cells can be used for research.

It's a good idea imo. Helps women afford abortion, helps humanity by providing research materials.

[Dain II Ironfoot]

That's your opinion, though many around here would disagree with that.



What's best for their bodies, sure, but laziness has nothing to do with your body.
I don't, everybody should stand up to take responsibility for their actions, not just women.
When they're born they would have a function in society, for whatever that's worth. I don't believe life has any real "special" meaning at all. If you want to counter overpopulation then start implementing some "one child" policies, worked in China.
Its different but still equal.

Why should it be my prerogative whether she wants to keep the baby or not? In other words, what makes me as a man so special that she has to count with my permission to abort?

No, her making a choice whether she wants to go through a pregnancy or not does have to do with her body.

You are, because you're telling them we as men and as a society know better than the woman in question.

If life has no special meaning at all, then why would you want to keep women from aborting?

It's really not.

Not your permission for that matter, though a man should have something to say about his child, its not like the man doesn't have anything to do with it.

It indeed has, but keeping it or removing it isn't a choice of "whats the best for my body"

Please show me, where did i said that?

It really is, Life is life, why would your life be more important then the life of a turtle for that matter?

1) It does, you denying it doesn't make it true.

Okay, so then it doesn't. Let me know when you understand the burden of proof.

2) It is, and once more, see "health" part far above somewhere. Please try to learn my post instead of making these blind replies.

Enough with this irrelevant "health part" bullshit. You can entirely survive without a lung, a kidney, and a part of your liver missing. Are you admitting that "denying life" is NOT above preserving bodily sovereignty?

3) So is yours,

No shit, which is why if you were a woman and didn't want to abort, I'd be fine with that. I however, would abort.

i will continue to say it becouse it is wrong.

Then why are you using a computer? Because you know that things were killed in order to manufacture that, right?

I don't no, and i wouldn't. Though denying a father to have something to say about his child is just sick.

That's too bad, really. You don't own women. Get the hell over it.

Lives are lives, but not all lives are equal. The life of cattle animals isn't of the same value as a human life (sorry Mav, but it is how it is as a carnivore )

Actually cattle life is of higher value than a fetus.

And humans aren't carnivores. Don't use words you don't understand please.

1) I'll let you know as soon as you know how to read.
2) Its very relevant, you just lack basic understanding, your problem, not mine.
3) Becouse you're to lazy to take responsibility for your actions.
4) Tell me.
5) Its funny though how you accuse me of denying women their rights and that i would want to controll them, yet you only show that you want to do that exact thing to men. Anyhow, its good what kind of person you are, makes it alot easier.
6) If you read properly, i never said that sentence. Once again you show that you cannot even read, yet you claim that you would be suitable for the decision between life and no life? Just pathetic.

Proper police does proper work, i can't help it that in several countries the police acts like a bunch of teenagers. educations comes from a child, if you don't want to learn it then that's your problem. If you can't lean (mostly poverty) then that issue should be fixed, but see the line "to poor to" above.
Once more, overpopulation won't be caused by this, try something else. lack of government regulations when it comes to helping in the orphanages (or whatever the proper name is in English) and such.

Proper police doesn't always do proper work, and does improper work. Education doesn't come from a child all the time. Such thing as a religious family with a deficit of a funds and a refusal to go to public school exists | If you're going to ignore a proper argument, then I see little reason to continue this.

Not Always, but just 99.9999999999% of the time, which is more then enough. Children are educated faster, more and on a better way. Never said that education solely comes from a child. Meh, such private schools should be banned. Proper argument? You're spitting out random stuff all over the place that is completely irrelevant in this matter.

Contraceptives fail. There is nothing wrong with having sex.

I'm pro choice and shit but try oral or anal.

Indeed.

Honestly, no. It denies them the duty to take responsibility for their actions.
Double standards by the means of: I do understand them though its still denies a child to be born.

I would allow a woman having an abortion if it would endanger her or the childs health (mental health included), if she was raped or if she would be to poor to raise a child properly.

They are taking responsibility by having an abortion.
And? how is that a double standard?

Why make those exceptions?

Actually, with an abortion they would take the easy road out. The easy road isn't Always the best road you know.
Two different views against eachother is what i call a double standard (not sure if in Eglish its callled the same, but over here it is called that way)
Different reasons, If the health would be in danger then i would allow it since health is all a person actually has in matter of fact. When she would be raped, its kinda sick to force her to keep the child, its a moral thing i suppose. When she's to poor, she can't offer the child a proper life, which isn't good for the child nor the woman (now ofcourse adoption should be an option here aswell i guess).

[Pope Joan]

Margaret Sanger: As an advocate of Birth Control, I wish to take advantage of the present opportunity to point out that the unbalance between the birth rate of the "unfit" and the "fit", admittedly the greatest present menace to civilization, can never be rectified by the inauguration of a cradle competition between these two classes. In this matter, the example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit though less fertile parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger/webe ... 238946.xml

and: (from the publication itself): “Those least fit to carry on the race are increasing most rapidly. People who cannot support their own offspring are encouraged by Church and State to produce large families. Many of the children thus begotten are diseased or feeble-minded; many become criminals. The burden of supporting these unwanted types has to be borne by the healthy elements of the nation. Funds that should be used to raise the standard of our civilization are diverted to the maintenance of those who should never have been born.” from The Pivot of Civilization, p. 279, where she outlines her principles.

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=1953

I do not think the eugenic element of abortion can be ignored.