Pearl Harbor Attacks and the effect on WWII's outcome

[New Hampshire Republic]

I'm pretty sure the guy who perpetrated the attack (or at least ordered it) regretted the decision as it was happening.

[Blakk Metal]

Hitler wouldn't have been a threat if we remained neutral long enough. The man was a mentally unstable coke-fiend.

Yes because Hitler is the sole fucker in all of nazi Germany to be worried about.

He was. The whole of Nazi Germany was centered around him.

That was for the West. Japan however was an entirely different foe and would have dragged on the war, possibly even changed the course of history greatly via it simply being incredibly hard for the Allies to attack them, or for the Japs to hit anyone besides Australia.

Essentially in WWII, we helped out a bit in the west, but our main role was taking on Japan and playing a game of island hopping.

You know "japs" is a racial slur, right?

Only in the US and Australia.

[Senkaku]

The Axis would have lost anyways. Against the combined forces of China, the USSR, and the British Empire, it was a foregone conclusion. Those three countries/empires alone were just so vast and so populous compared to the Axis that, eventually, the Axis countries would have been overwhelmed even without American help. American intervention only sped the process up- eventually the Soviets would have pushed back, and Britain had the resources and population of the subcontinent, Australia, and vast tracts of land in Africa, along with Canada (as a Commonwealth nation), to try and land troops on the Continent or just to bomb Germany into a smoking heap of rubble.

And I'm aware China wasn't really a great power, but I listed it because it was/is just so populous and geographically huge and not really something Japan ever could have managed to fully take over.

[New Hampshire Republic]

That was for the West. Japan however was an entirely different foe and would have dragged on the war, possibly even changed the course of history greatly via it simply being incredibly hard for the Allies to attack them, or for the Japs to hit anyone besides Australia.

Essentially in WWII, we helped out a bit in the west, but our main role was taking on Japan and playing a game of island hopping.

You know "japs" is a racial slur, right?

You're thinking of "nip."

There was actually a Bugs Bunny cartoon tastefully named "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips"

[Cetacea]

Yeah nah, the Hawaiians and the Japanese were getting on fine. Hawaii had a treaty with Japan and was accorded Most Favoured Nation status In 1881 King Kalakaua visited Emperoro Mutsuhito were he was an honoured guest and amongst other things invited Japan to send Japanese settlers to Hawaii.

The only ones wanting US protection were the US sugar barons who overthrew the Hawaiian Government

And Japanese settlers CAME to Hawaii. Don't really know what your point is. Hawaii benefited economically from joining the US.

Yeah I'm not saying the attack on the US ships at Pearl Harbour was a good idea, or even altruistic - it was absolutely about protecting Japanese interest in the Pacific - I am saying it was justified retaliation, and that the Japanese had reason to be pissed at the US invaders - it was less than 50 years since the US overthrow of Hawaii (and interference with said Japanese interest) ie within the living memory of the Japanese officials.

[SuperFruitland]

And Japanese settlers CAME to Hawaii. Don't really know what your point is. Hawaii benefited economically from joining the US.

Yeah I'm not saying the attack on the US ships at Pearl Harbour was a good idea, or even altruistic - it was absolutely about protecting Japanese interest in the Pacific - I am saying it was justified retaliation, and that the Japanese had reason to be pissed at the US invaders - it was less than 50 years since the US overthrow of Hawaii (and interference with said Japanese interest) ie within the living memory of the Japanese officials.

No.

The attack on Pearl was a pre-emptive strike attempt against the US Navy, and (hopefully) the carriers. It failed. It had nothing to do with the Japanese being pissed at America for taking Hawaii.

And the US didn't invade Hawaii, btw.

[The Orson Empire]

The Japanese made a huge mistake in attacking Pearl Harbor, as it was a failure.

While the Japanese did some damage, the ships they destroyed were quickly replaced. They also failed to destroy the oil tanks at Pearl Harbor or the U.S. aircraft carriers (which were not at Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack). On top of that, instead of scaring the Americans into backing down, all it did was make the Americans extraordinarily furious.

[The Sotoan Union]

Are you seriously arguing that the Japanese were the good guys in World War 2?

I'm arguing that the attack on the US occupying force at Pearl Harbour was justified.

Hawaii only became a State in 1959, before that it was an US occupied territory that had been illegally invaded

So you are claiming that the US illegally invaded Hawaii and Japan was replying to that. But you are ignoring the illegal invasions of Korea, Manchuria, and China by Japan.

You are just a hypocrite.

[Ereria]

I think the war would have taken longer, but no different outcome.

Japan would most probably just fall as quickly as it's rise because of riots and nationalism in annexed countries.

[Lenciland]

Not trying to be conspiracy theorist on this thread, but I do believe that enticing was always Yamamoto's plan. I like to think that he was smart enough to see that life under an American occupation would be better than a Soviet occupation. That's the small conspiracy theory I allow myself.

[United Marxist Nations]

Not trying to be conspiracy theorist on this thread, but I do believe that enticing was always Yamamoto's plan. I like to think that he was smart enough to see that life under an American occupation would be better than a Soviet occupation. That's the small conspiracy theory I allow myself.

Probably not true, he had to come up with a plan, so he came up with the one he thought would be most likely to work (he was skeptical of whether a "decisive battle" that prior Admirals (such as Admiral Togo) sought with enemies would happen.

[Insaeldor]

One of the more importent moments in human history as it drew american industrial power against the Japanese. However I'd say the biggest blunder of the war was Hitlers declaration of war on America.

[Lenciland]

Not trying to be conspiracy theorist on this thread, but I do believe that enticing was always Yamamoto's plan. I like to think that he was smart enough to see that life under an American occupation would be better than a Soviet occupation. That's the small conspiracy theory I allow myself.

Probably not true, he had to come up with a plan, so he came up with the one he thought would be most likely to work (he was skeptical of whether a "decisive battle" that prior Admirals (such as Admiral Togo) sought with enemies would happen.

I know it's not true, I just like to think that he was a bit smarter than what he's given credit for. I know it's absurd, but I like an underdog. Then again, maybe he was just following orders.

[Cetacea]

I'm arguing that the attack on the US occupying force at Pearl Harbour was justified.

Hawaii only became a State in 1959, before that it was an US occupied territory that had been illegally invaded

So you are claiming that the US illegally invaded Hawaii and Japan was replying to that. But you are ignoring the illegal invasions of Korea, Manchuria, and China by Japan.

You are just a hypocrite.

Not hypocrisy to point out that the Japan had justification vs US. I would be fully supportive of Chinese and Manchuria being pissed at Japan and staging an attack on them too

And the US didn't invade Hawaii, btw.

Parking Navy ships in the Harbour and ordering US Naval Troops to march through the Streets of Honolulu at the same time as US Business Interest are staging a coup is an invasion - whats worse it is an illegal unsanctioned invasion.

The only reason that there wasn't more bloodshed is because Queen Liliuokalani calmed her people and trusted that the US would be just - sadly she was mistaken

[MERIZoC]

Even if the US didn't get involved (I imagine they could have been eventually convinced, though), the Russians would still have defeated Germany. How much longer, and how many more deaths would have occurred is another thing.

[Distruzio]

I thought we could talk about the Pearl Harbor attack that happened on 7 December 1941. I didn't see a thread to discuss this.

Anyway, the Pearl Harbor attacks were outrageous and cruel, but in a good way, they brought the US into World War II. The Nazi Reich may not have been defeated had we remained neutral. It was the Axis' undoing to attack America.

A few questions:
Do you think that World War II would have ended differently had the Pearl Harbor attacks never happened? Would the US have been involved in the war ever? Would the war have been an Axis victory if America didn't contribute? If this is the case, we never would have nuked Japan. Does that mean that Japan would rule most of the Pacific/Asia today? And...if that is the case, would Communist China have ever existed, or would it be under the rule of Imperial Japan? How much territory would the Nazis control if America would never have intervened?

What do you think?

[SuperFruitland]

So you are claiming that the US illegally invaded Hawaii and Japan was replying to that. But you are ignoring the illegal invasions of Korea, Manchuria, and China by Japan.

You are just a hypocrite.

Not hypocrisy to point out that the Japan had justification vs US. I would be fully supportive of Chinese and Manchuria being pissed at Japan and staging an attack on them too

And the US didn't invade Hawaii, btw.

Parking Navy ships in the Harbour and ordering US Naval Troops to march through the Streets of Honolulu at the same time as US Business Interest are staging a coup is an invasion - whats worse it is an illegal unsanctioned invasion.

The only reason that there wasn't more bloodshed is because Queen Liliuokalani calmed her people and trusted that the US would be just - sadly she was mistaken

*completely ignoring everything else I said about the attacks themselves*

[The Sotoan Union]

So you are claiming that the US illegally invaded Hawaii and Japan was replying to that. But you are ignoring the illegal invasions of Korea, Manchuria, and China by Japan.

You are just a hypocrite.

Not hypocrisy to point out that the Japan had justification vs US. I would be fully supportive of Chinese and Manchuria being pissed at Japan and staging an attack on them too

But why? What did the US do to Japan to justify an attack? Was Hawaii part of Japan or something?

[Warpspace]

So you are claiming that the US illegally invaded Hawaii and Japan was replying to that. But you are ignoring the illegal invasions of Korea, Manchuria, and China by Japan.

You are just a hypocrite.

Not hypocrisy to point out that the Japan had justification vs US. I would be fully supportive of Chinese and Manchuria being pissed at Japan and staging an attack on them too

And the US didn't invade Hawaii, btw.

Parking Navy ships in the Harbour and ordering US Naval Troops to march through the Streets of Honolulu at the same time as US Business Interest are staging a coup is an invasion - whats worse it is an illegal unsanctioned invasion.

The only reason that there wasn't more bloodshed is because Queen Liliuokalani calmed her people and trusted that the US would be just - sadly she was mistaken

Complaining about an invasion being "unlawful" is hilarious and pathetic. The law is made by force of hand, nothing else.

[Marxist-Leninist Germany]

One of the more importent moments in human history as it drew american industrial power against the Japanese. However I'd say the biggest blunder of the war was Hitlers declaration of war on America.

Debateable, Barbarossa could easily be the biggest blunder.

[Marxist-Leninist Germany]

You know "japs" is a racial slur, right?

It's a historical term and a shorter way of saying Japanese.

Yes, just as nigger and injun are historical terms.

[Baltenstein]

One of the more importent moments in human history as it drew american industrial power against the Japanese. However I'd say the biggest blunder of the war was Hitlers declaration of war on America.

The official war declaration didn't change much. Germany and the US were already exchanging fire for months in the Atlantic, and the US had openly supported the Allies for even longer.

[Parhe]

Japan should not have attacked the United States, the world would be a better place if that attack never happened. The soviets would have fell and the United States would have stayed neutral.

And Japan might continue ravaging, among others, China and Korea? No thanks. I for one am happy that World War Two happened. The same nations that ignored Korea's pleas for help in prevent colonization were hurt the most and it helped make Korea independent. I mean, it was divided, but that was Japan's and America's fault and was a bit late to change.

[SuperFruitland]

Japan should not have attacked the United States, the world would be a better place if that attack never happened. The soviets would have fell and the United States would have stayed neutral.

And Japan might continue ravaging, among others, China and Korea? No thanks. I for one am happy that World War Two happened. The same nations that ignored Korea's pleas for help in prevent colonization were hurt the most and it helped make Korea independent. I mean, it was divided, but that was Japan's and America's fault and was a bit late to change.

You're happy WW2 happened just cuz Korea became independent?

[Kratu]

Its likely that Mr. Roosevelt would have found another way to enter the war with the Axis at a later date anyways. Not to mention the fact that Operation Barbarossa would have failed soon enough and the Soviets would begin to pressure the Germans.