Pearl Harbor Attacks and the effect on WWII's outcome

[Archeuland and Baughistan]

I thought we could talk about the Pearl Harbor attack that happened on 7 December 1941. I didn't see a thread to discuss this.

Anyway, the Pearl Harbor attacks were outrageous and cruel, but in a good way, they brought the US into World War II. The Nazi Reich may not have been defeated had we remained neutral. It was the Axis' undoing to attack America.

A few questions:
Do you think that World War II would have ended differently had the Pearl Harbor attacks never happened? Would the US have been involved in the war ever? Would the war have been an Axis victory if America didn't contribute? If this is the case, we never would have nuked Japan. Does that mean that Japan would rule most of the Pacific/Asia today? And...if that is the case, would Communist China have ever existed, or would it be under the rule of Imperial Japan? How much territory would the Nazis control if America would never have intervened?

[Greater Weselton]

Japan made a mistake in attacking Pearl Harbor. It drew America into the war.

[Rupudska]

Had America not gotten directly involved, the war's outcome would have been infinitely less certain.

[The Black Forrest]

Oh this has been discussed a few times.

The question of it happening is not really salient. I wish I could remember the book, but the author catalogged a series of incidents between the US and Japan. It was going to happen.

Anyway, the Pearl Harbor attacks were outrageous and cruel, but in a good way, they brought the US into World War II.

Well. War is cruel. Declaring one incident? Well it may have not followed the rules but it's not on the level of what they were doing in China.

The Nazi Reich may not have been defeated had we remained neutral. It was the Axis' undoing to attack America.

The Reich was doomed when they marched on the Soviets. Country was way too big and with their industrial complex moved to the Urals, they couldn't stop it.

We like to think we turned the war which we did help end it sooner but we can't really fathom the fighting that went on int he east. Look at the battle of Bagration. Over 200 divisions involved. Between them over 2 million men.

A few questions:
Do you think that World War II would have ended differently had the Pearl Harbor attacks never happened? Would the US have been involved in the war ever?

Nope. The US was going to get involved. FDR was looking for a reason.

Would the war have been an Axis victory if America didn't contribute?

Nope. Just would have taken longer.

If this is the case, we never would have nuked Japan. Does that mean that Japan would rule most of the Pacific/Asia today?

We were involved in the Pacific. Unless we were going to withdraw, then we were going to be involved no matter what.

And...if that is the case, would Communist China have ever existed, or would it be under the rule of Imperial Japan?

Doubtful. If the US stayed out, then the Soviets would have been involved. Port Arthur was still on their minds.

How much territory would the Nazis control if America would never have intervened?

Hard to say. Probably would have taken Moscow and then be shocked the Soviets didn't give up.

[-Shie-]

Japan should not have attacked the United States, the world would be a better place if that attack never happened. The soviets would have fell and the United States would have stayed neutral.

[New Carloso]

Anyway, the Pearl Harbor attacks were outrageous and cruel, but in a good way, they brought the US into World War II.

Well. War is cruel. Declaring one incident? Well it may have not followed the rules but it's not on the level of what they were doing in China.

Or what the allies did to Dresden.

[Patrick OConner]

I believe that America was going to enter to the war eventually. Given the Nazi Ideology and their pattern of action up to that time, it was only a matter of time before they provoked the "sleeping giant". Now America would have entered later and that would have driven the cost of the war higher, but an America victory was inevitable. We at the time, had a large population to draw on, and a good industrial base that may take a while to get up to speed, and a relatively unspoiled land rich in natural resources but regardless we could out fight and out build the Nazis and Japan.

[Planita]

Not really the US was already less than neutral with the land lease act, and the orders to open fire on all German submarines if they come close

[-Shie-]

I believe that America was going to enter to the war eventually. Given the Nazi Ideology and their pattern of action up to that time, it was only a matter of time before they provoked the "sleeping giant". Now America would have entered later and that would have driven the cost of the war higher, but an America victory was inevitable. We at the time, had a large population to draw on, and a good industrial base that may take a while to get up to speed, and a relatively unspoiled land rich in natural resources but regardless we could out fight and out build the Nazis and Japan.

The Axis powers would have beaten Stalin and the British Empire if the United States did not intervene. America couldn't have beaten the Axis without Russian support.

[-Shie-]

Well. War is cruel.

Not when it is done right.

[Warpspace]

Had America not gotten directly involved, the war's outcome would have been infinitely less certain.

No it wouldn't. The Axis still lacked the ability to contend with the Allies, and the US would have still inevitably been drawn into the war later on by FDR. The only thing that could affect the outcome of WWII, or at least drag it out, was the if the Italian Fleet ever left port and went to war.

As for Pearl Harbor, I'd call it more or less a failure actually. Had Japan attacked earlier, they would have actually done extreme harm to the US War Machine by sinking our carriers, which ended up deciding the entire war. Instead by the time they attacked, our Carriers were out in the ocean and safe from the strike. The only thing that got hit was personnel (easily replaced with bodies, only logistical loss is the training) and destroyers. IIRC we raised the main battleship from the ocean floor and repaired, just taking it out of the action.

So all Pearl Harbor did was manage to piss off the United States and make the population motivated enough to enter a state of Total War, ultimately leading to the demise of Imperial Japan.

I believe that America was going to enter to the war eventually. Given the Nazi Ideology and their pattern of action up to that time, it was only a matter of time before they provoked the "sleeping giant". Now America would have entered later and that would have driven the cost of the war higher, but an America victory was inevitable. We at the time, had a large population to draw on, and a good industrial base that may take a while to get up to speed, and a relatively unspoiled land rich in natural resources but regardless we could out fight and out build the Nazis and Japan.

The Axis powers would have beaten Stalin and the British Empire if the United States did not intervene. America couldn't have beaten the Axis without Russian support.

U wot m8.

[Blazedtown]

Hard to say. Probably would have taken Moscow and then be shocked the Soviets didn't give up.

I agree with most of what you said, but capturing Moscow would have been a significant blow to the Soviets. Far more than its importance as the capital, it was the center point of the entire soviet transportation network, every road and rail line led to Moscow. Had they taken Moscow before the onset of winter, it would have greatly delayed the Soviet's ability to move troops and supplies, possibly even preventing the rapid build of troops needed to take launch the Stalingrad counter offensives.

[-Shie-]

The Axis powers would have beaten Stalin and the British Empire if the United States did not intervene. America couldn't have beaten the Axis without Russian support.

U wot m8.

If America did not enter WWII everything would have gone according to plan. The civil rights movement would have started, scientific racism would be debunked, and the hippies wouldn't have a base or platform for their ideas.

[-Shie-]

If America did not enter WWII, the modern day United States would look something like this.

Racially diverse, traditional, tolerant and patriarchal.

[CTALNH]

U wot m8.

If America did not enter WWII everything would have gone according to plan. The civil rights movement would have started, scientific racism would be debunked, and the hippies wouldn't have a base or platform for their ideas.

So Hitler would pull a few million troops out of his ass?

[-Shie-]

If America did not enter WWII everything would have gone according to plan. The civil rights movement would have started, scientific racism would be debunked, and the hippies wouldn't have a base or platform for their ideas.

So Hitler would pull a few million troops out of his ass?

Hitler wouldn't have been a threat if we remained neutral long enough. The man was a mentally unstable coke-fiend. Our intelligence knew this.

[Warpspace]

U wot m8.

If America did not enter WWII everything would have gone according to plan.

How? The Axis were laughably outgunned and out manned by the Commonwealth, let alone the Soviet Union to boot. The only thing that America really provided to the Western Front was logistics... which we were already supplying even had we never entered the war. When we did enter, the only thing we truly supplied was air support. Our armor was shite and only worked through mass production, and our infantry simply more bodies to back up the Commonwealth. Italy supplied nothing at all during the war thanks to leaving their entire massive, game-changing fleet in port thus leading to the British Commando strike that single handily sunk the entire thing.

Germany meanwhile wasn't even that impressive of a military state to begin with. They were a logistical nightmare doomed to lose simply due to being incredibly impotent. Everything from the doctrine on how they conducted air warfare (SEND ALL THE ACES) to setting up logistics to back them up while invading was just awful. The Blitzkrieg tactic only worked if the enemy wasn't dug in (or with the French, having their guns pointed in the wrong direction) or mobilized. Then there was the hilariously incompetent invasion of the Soviets, which forgot to set up a logistical train for ammunition and winter gear for soldiers on the Russian front. Thus leading to them being slaughtered by the Russians, who were willing to do anything to survive as it was a war of survival.

With how hilariously incompetent the Germans and Italians were, they would have never won the war, even just against the Commonwealth. It would have been a very, very bloody war lasting maybe for even a decade, but the Axis would have never won. The only Axis nation that could have seriously changed events was Japan, but getting all the way to the west was a problem.

[CTALNH]

So Hitler would pull a few million troops out of his ass?

Hitler wouldn't have been a threat if we remained neutral long enough. The man was a mentally unstable coke-fiend.

Yes because Hitler is the sole fucker in all of nazi Germany to be worried about.

[Patrick OConner]

Well. War is cruel.

Not when it is done right.

what the hell? you ever even study war? seriously? go to a bookstore and purchase some biography's about soldiers who were on the front lines. War Is Hell.

[Irav]

If America did not enter WWII everything would have gone according to plan. The civil rights movement would have started, scientific racism would be debunked, and the hippies wouldn't have a base or platform for their ideas.

Well the United States wasn't really neutral, before Pearl Harbor happened they helped the Brits by selling them goods.

[Galloism]

If America did not enter WWII everything would have gone according to plan. The civil rights movement would have started, scientific racism would be debunked, and the hippies wouldn't have a base or platform for their ideas.

Well the United States wasn't really neutral, before Pearl Harbor happened they helped the Brits by selling them goods.

And calling in Axis ship locations to the British Navy.

As an "advisory".

[Warpspace]

If America did not enter WWII everything would have gone according to plan. The civil rights movement would have started, scientific racism would be debunked, and the hippies wouldn't have a base or platform for their ideas.

Well the United States wasn't really neutral, before Pearl Harbor happened they helped the Brits by selling them goods.

And the Soviets. We were selling aircraft to the USSR for a bit before we entered WWII. Although there were also some automobile companies selling vehicles to the Nazis as well.

[-Shie-]

If America did not enter WWII everything would have gone according to plan.

How? The Axis were laughably outgunned and out manned by the Commonwealth, let alone the Soviet Union to boot. The only thing that America really provided to the Western Front was logistics... which we were already supplying even had we never entered the war. When we did enter, the only thing we truly supplied was air support. Our armor was shite and only worked through mass production, and our infantry simply more bodies to back up the Commonwealth. Italy supplied nothing at all during the war thanks to leaving their entire massive, game-changing fleet in port thus leading to the British Commando strike that single handily sunk the entire thing.

Germany meanwhile wasn't even that impressive of a military state to begin with. They were a logistical nightmare doomed to lose simply due to being incredibly impotent. Everything from the doctrine on how they conducted air warfare (SEND ALL THE ACES) to setting up logistics to back them up while invading was just awful. The Blitzkrieg tactic only worked if the enemy wasn't dug in (or with the French, having their guns pointed in the wrong direction) or mobilized. Then there was the hilariously incompetent invasion of the Soviets, which forgot to set up a logistical train for ammunition and winter gear for soldiers on the Russian front. Thus leading to them being slaughtered by the Russians, who were willing to do anything to survive as it was a war of survival.

With how hilariously incompetent the Germans and Italians were, they would have never won the war, even just against the Commonwealth. It would have been a very, very bloody war lasting maybe for even a decade, but the Axis would have never won. The only Axis nation that could have seriously changed events was Japan, but getting all the way to the west was a problem.

Good, the Axis should not have won but the defensive war effort of the United States changed to offensive too quickly. If the United States was defensively prepared for WWII the social changes of the sixties wouldn't have been so drastic.

The domestic American race problem would've been solved sooner. The cultural marxism of radical feminists wouldn't have happened because the notions of free-love would have no base. Millions of American men wouldn't have died in war so the culture of the United States wouldn't have switched to the matriarchal hippie swinger lifestyle with the abundance of men to preserve traditional values.

The Axis would have inevitably lost but the United States should have had no place in it's destruction when we had our own issues to deal with like Civil Rights.

[Irav]

Well the United States wasn't really neutral, before Pearl Harbor happened they helped the Brits by selling them goods.

And calling in Axis ship locations to the British Navy.

As an "advisory".

Thanks

So yeah, the US wasn't really neutral to begin with.

[Warpspace]

How? The Axis were laughably outgunned and out manned by the Commonwealth, let alone the Soviet Union to boot. The only thing that America really provided to the Western Front was logistics... which we were already supplying even had we never entered the war. When we did enter, the only thing we truly supplied was air support. Our armor was shite and only worked through mass production, and our infantry simply more bodies to back up the Commonwealth. Italy supplied nothing at all during the war thanks to leaving their entire massive, game-changing fleet in port thus leading to the British Commando strike that single handily sunk the entire thing.

Germany meanwhile wasn't even that impressive of a military state to begin with. They were a logistical nightmare doomed to lose simply due to being incredibly impotent. Everything from the doctrine on how they conducted air warfare (SEND ALL THE ACES) to setting up logistics to back them up while invading was just awful. The Blitzkrieg tactic only worked if the enemy wasn't dug in (or with the French, having their guns pointed in the wrong direction) or mobilized. Then there was the hilariously incompetent invasion of the Soviets, which forgot to set up a logistical train for ammunition and winter gear for soldiers on the Russian front. Thus leading to them being slaughtered by the Russians, who were willing to do anything to survive as it was a war of survival.

With how hilariously incompetent the Germans and Italians were, they would have never won the war, even just against the Commonwealth. It would have been a very, very bloody war lasting maybe for even a decade, but the Axis would have never won. The only Axis nation that could have seriously changed events was Japan, but getting all the way to the west was a problem.

Good, the Axis should not have won but the defensive war effort of the United States changed to offensive too quickly. If the United States was defensively prepared for WWII the social changes of the sixties wouldn't have been so drastic.

The domestic American race problem would've been solved sooner. The cultural marxism of radical feminists wouldn't have happened because the notions of free-love would have no base. Millions of American men wouldn't have died in war so the culture of the United States wouldn't have switched to the matriarchal hippie swinger lifestyle with the abundance of men to preserve traditional values.

The Axis would have inevitably lost but the United States should have had no place in it's destruction when we had our own issues to deal with.

That was for the West. Japan however was an entirely different foe and would have dragged on the war, possibly even changed the course of history greatly via it simply being incredibly hard for the Allies to attack them, or for the Japs to hit anyone besides Australia.

Essentially in WWII, we helped out a bit in the west, but our main role was taking on Japan and playing a game of island hopping.