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Is Communism a Natural Tendency?

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Apparatchikstan
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Postby Apparatchikstan » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:20 pm

The only way to organically grow communism is to establish an absurdly adverse environment that requires an extreme level of communal cooperation just to eke out a standard of basic survival, ergo our unfortunate ancestors, who spent millenia living hand to mouth. Ever since the advent of agriculture, communism became obsolete in the face of surplus food.
So can communism naturally occur, yes, but a natural tendancy, no. People trend towards security, which means possessing more than just the bare necessity against any misfortune that may temporarily derail their ability to earn or produce lunch. This is why post-modern communism has to be forcibly established and maintained, because it is a counter evolutionary ethic. It denies the possession of extra, ergo security, creating a needlessly fearful and paranoid society.
There's a simple evolutionary reason why communism is classless, stateless, and coinless. Our ancestors couldn't afford them. Their anarchy was a natural product of their lack of ability to yet wrangle anything more than basic subsistence out of their environment. It's not a condition to aspire to.
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Chungking
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Postby Chungking » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:25 pm

Sure it is.

If somebody asks you for directions, or for a light for their cigarette, or for you to hand them something and you did it without asking for anything "what's in it for me?", then congratulations, you've behaved according to the principle of For each according to their ability, to each according to their need. In other words, you've behaved communistically.

Of course, communism is not the only natural tendency there is. The principle of exchange is also a natural human social tendency. And so is hierarchy.

All human societies are built on the bedrock of these basic tendencies; no one human society has ever been built according to one to the exclusion of the others. We can, however, emphasize and encourage certain tendencies over others.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:45 pm

Fjormark wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:Jesus was a communist. And a pacifist. And an anarchist.

Let me guess, he was also a Libertarian? Please refrain from speaking out of ignorance. I should also mention that everyone should put in effort to not try to derail this thread completely, I know it's hard, but I have faith in you.


Well he hated taxmen. So yes.
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Baltenstein
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Postby Baltenstein » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:00 am

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Greater Weselton wrote:Communism can't be a natural tendency since it goes against God.


Jesus was a communist. And a pacifist. And an anarchist.


Nonsense, before anything else, he was a hardworking, honest-to-God, freedom-loving American.
Last edited by Baltenstein on Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Estado Nacional
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Postby Estado Nacional » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:08 am

Far from it.
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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:09 am

Greater Weselton wrote:Communism can't be a natural tendency since it goes against God.

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Earl of Sandwich IV
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Postby Earl of Sandwich IV » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:18 am

Every communist state had to suppress free speech and resort to widespread propaganda and violence keep the people in line. So no, it's not a 'natural tendency'.

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Greater Weselton
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Postby Greater Weselton » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:21 am

Marxist-Leninist Germany wrote:
Greater Weselton wrote:Communism can't be a natural tendency since it goes against God.

What? How? You do realize that there is such a thing as Christian Communism right? Or are you just going to pull a No True Scotsman?

Communism rejects God and put the secular progressive state above all. I do know that Christian communism exists. It is not true Christianity or true communism.
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Skinia
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Postby Skinia » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:25 am

Educate thyself.

Greater Weselton wrote:Communism can't be a natural tendency since it goes against God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

Greater Weselton wrote:
Marxist-Leninist Germany wrote:What? How? You do realize that there is such a thing as Christian Communism right? Or are you just going to pull a No True Scotsman?

Communism rejects God and put the secular progressive state above all. I do know that Christian communism exists. It is not true Christianity or true communism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Last edited by Skinia on Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sunarctica
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Postby Sunarctica » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:28 am

I think you're referring to Socialism

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Cetacea
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Postby Cetacea » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:28 am

It depends on what level you are operating

at the level of the family communistic altruism is the natural tendency, at least to the extent that families do have an inbuilt hierarchy of parent-child relationships. The same communistic altruisim can extend to the village, particularly if it is underpinned with family-ties (the familial allegiance network) but works best when applied to large productive resources (land) which every needs rather than small 'personal' objects.

Outside the village communism begins to break down outside the familial network mentioned above. The City might be able to operate as a network of trading/competing villages using gifts and intermarriage to build cohesion and trade as a means of resource sharing

Beyond the city Communism doesn't happen, hierarchies impose themselves and hoarding becomes rampant

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New HastoffMaljagan
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Postby New HastoffMaljagan » Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:31 am

No, Marx believed that society originated in "tribal communism", this is actually not true. Although land was owned collectively it was not worked collectively, research has proven that people were alotted plots of collectively owned land for which they would individually manage. And Marx also believed that capitalism leads to Communism, which we know by now not to be true.
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Postby Marxist-Leninist Germany » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:10 pm

Greater Weselton wrote:
Marxist-Leninist Germany wrote:What? How? You do realize that there is such a thing as Christian Communism right? Or are you just going to pull a No True Scotsman?

Communism rejects God and put the secular progressive state above all. I do know that Christian communism exists. It is not true Christianity or true communism.

Ah, call me nostradamus because I predicted your fallacious bullshit reasoning perfectly.
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Skinia
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Postby Skinia » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:12 pm

Marxist-Leninist Germany wrote:
Greater Weselton wrote:Communism rejects God and put the secular progressive state above all. I do know that Christian communism exists. It is not true Christianity or true communism.

Ah, call me nostradamus because I predicted your fallacious bullshit reasoning perfectly.

His fallacious bullshit is rather easily debunked by Wikipedia articles.
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Souriya Al-Assad
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Postby Souriya Al-Assad » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:15 pm

Communism is natural to humankind. We used to have it under primitive communism, however the reactionaries over time attempted to transform us into selfish, corrupt beings, whence in fact we should not have been thus.

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Betoni
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Postby Betoni » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:35 pm

New HastoffMaljagan wrote:No, Marx believed that society originated in "tribal communism", this is actually not true. Although land was owned collectively it was not worked collectively, research has proven that people were alotted plots of collectively owned land for which they would individually manage. And Marx also believed that capitalism leads to Communism, which we know by now not to be true.


Wait, what now? We do?

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Marxist-Leninist Germany
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Postby Marxist-Leninist Germany » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:19 pm

Earl of Sandwich IV wrote:Every communist state had to suppress free speech and resort to widespread propaganda and violence keep the people in line. So no, it's not a 'natural tendency'.

I think OP is referring to the true concept of communism, not the warped and mangledsversions that have existed through history.
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Postby Natapoc » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:52 pm

Yes, but so is capitalism, slave ownership and greed.

Every socio-political philosophy that's been seen and followed does so as a result of one or more natural human tendencys.

Communism follows from the natural human tendency to value justice and fairness. These are strong drives with long evolutionary histories (animals have them too).

Humans have many natural tendencies, some of which often conflict. Our fear of running out of things we need or enjoy can cause us to act unfairly to others despite our empathy and desire for fairness.

Our need for security can cause us to either take our security from our relationships, or from things or from beliefs (Gods, ect).

Instead of asking if communism is a natural tendency, a better question is: Does [insert philosophy here] best provide for the needs of people?
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Insaeldor
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Postby Insaeldor » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:53 pm

Is communism human nature? Well definetly organizing oneself into a group is a very natural thing for people to collective to a degree which is a tenet of communism. However the full total collect of society in mass is a strong exaggeration of this basic human quirk. So human collectivism is natural to a degree I would say communism given the extreme of its policies is a human construct rather then human nature.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:03 pm

Fjormark wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:Jesus was a communist. And a pacifist. And an anarchist.

Let me guess, he was also a Libertarian? Please refrain from speaking out of ignorance. I should also mention that everyone should put in effort to not try to derail this thread completely, I know it's hard, but I have faith in you.


Well, a "libertarian socialist" would be another word for anarcho-communist.
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:09 pm

In a way; hunter-gatherer societies could be described as communistic. However, higher human civilisation is inherently hierarchical and therefore incompatible with communism. Even in pre-agricultural societies, hierarchy existed in some form; we're hierarchical by nature, like virtually all social animals.
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Postby New Hampshire Republic » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:09 pm

No: People like to have their own shit.
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:13 pm

Old Tyrannia wrote:In a way; hunter-gatherer societies could be described as communistic. However, higher human civilisation is inherently hierarchical and therefore incompatible with communism. Even in pre-agricultural societies, hierarchy existed in some form; we're hierarchical by nature, like virtually all social animals.


Higher human civilization? What do you mean by that? What is a "higher" human civilization and how do you decide which human civilization is "higher" than other?
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Syndicapolis
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Postby Syndicapolis » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:15 pm

Aristotle :roll:

I think the redundancy of Aristotlean formal logic shows how seriously you can take this guy.

Marx said it better than I can: it is not humanity's innate behaviour that determines its social existence, it's its social existence that determines its behaviour (the original quotation was with "man," as opposed to "humanity," and "consciousness," as opposed to "behaviour," but I'm not going to use a gendered pronoun and the same applies to consciousness as to behaviour). Humans are co-operative when material conditions cause them to be so, and competitive for the same reason, and the same applies to all attributes of human beings. There's no psychologism to it.

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Old Tyrannia
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:16 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:In a way; hunter-gatherer societies could be described as communistic. However, higher human civilisation is inherently hierarchical and therefore incompatible with communism. Even in pre-agricultural societies, hierarchy existed in some form; we're hierarchical by nature, like virtually all social animals.


Higher human civilization? What do you mean by that? What is a "higher" human civilization and how do you decide which human civilization is "higher" than other?

Higher as in "larger in scale than small nomadic hunter-gatherer societies."
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